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Mike

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Species barrier

Most experts believe that the sudden appearance of vCJD in 1996 - a disease that causes sponge-like holes in the brain - has its origins in diseased cattle.

They hypothesised that both BSE and vCJD were caused by rogue prion proteins that jumped the species barrier from cows into humans. But although various studies have appeared to support this linkage, conclusive proof has remained elusive.

Some countries are still reluctant to import British beef

Now researchers from the University of California, San Francisco, and the UK National CJD Surveillance Unit, Scotland, have reported striking similarities between the two diseases. The scientists conducted experiments with mice genetically-altered to produce the same prions naturally found in cows.

They discovered, not unexpectedly, that there was no species barrier between the mice and cows. Diseased brain tissue injected into the mice produced symptoms in 250 days, the same incubation period experienced by cattle with BSE.

A second group of mice given prions from the first group also became sick in virtually the same period of time. But the big surprise came when human brain tissue infected with the prions that cause vCJD was injected into the mice.

'Indistinguishable' identities

Once again there was no apparent sign of a species barrier, but, more significantly, vCJD had virtually the same incubation period in the mice as BSE.

The pattern of brain damage was also identical. The results suggest that BSE and vCJD are interchangeable. Introduced into transgenic mice, vCJD prions assumed an identity "indistinguishable from BSE prions", the researchers write in the PNAS.



BSE is thought have its origins in sheep

The similarities not only force the scientists to the conclusion that BSE must be the cause of vCJD, but make them worry that many more people than previously thought could fall ill as a result of eating infected meat.

The research team also found their altered mice were highly susceptible to infection with the sheep prion disease scrapie, although this produced a different biological pattern.

Scientists suspect BSE may have originated in cattle as a result of feeding them sheep remains infected with scrapie. The transgenic mice used in this study could be used to check this linkage, the team say.

PNAS
Neurology at UCSF
The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food
UK CJD surveillance unit
 

rkaiser

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Still wondering Mike, what it is that you are hoping to accomplish. Article after article you post. All trying to prove your point, but none doing it conclusively. Homoginate, and now again with the injection route. What is your game?

R2 has no cattle, bse tester has a great reason, but what's with you Mike?

Are you simply trying to save human lives? Cause if you are, you may want to take a closer look at the metal contamination studies. 150 deaths from vCJD which have never been proven to be linked to the eating of beef is nothing. Millions of people dying from TSE's likey brought on by exposure to rouge metals - NOW THAT'S A STORY.

Are you about done witht the cattel biz Mike? Have you an axe to grind with the industry? Would you like to see the demise of our industry in North America, just like the European model?
 

Mike

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rkaiser said:
Still wondering Mike, what it is that you are hoping to accomplish. Article after article you post. All trying to prove your point, but none doing it conclusively. Homoginate, and now again with the injection route. What is your game?

R2 has no cattle, bse tester has a great reason, but what's with you Mike?

Are you simply trying to save human lives? Cause if you are, you may want to take a closer look at the metal contamination studies. 150 deaths from vCJD which have never been proven to be linked to the eating of beef is nothing. Millions of people dying from TSE's likey brought on by exposure to rouge metals - NOW THAT'S A STORY.

Are you about done witht the cattel biz Mike? Have you an axe to grind with the industry? Would you like to see the demise of our industry in North America, just like the European model?

Randy, Feed transmission is a fact. Proven over and over again. There were many in England that didn't believe it either and that is exactly why there were 40,000 positives after the feed ban, because people didn't believe it and kept feeding banned feed. In fact, you had one positive that got fed chicken or hog feed didn't you? Or suspected to have, anyway.

I do not doubt copper defiencies have a play in the immune system allowing prions to penetrate cattle and might have had a part in the initial start of BSE. I agree somewhat with the OP's being associated too.

All of the evidence is conclusive Randy. If science doubted it, there would be more feed transmission tests underway!

Late edit.
How in the hell can showing evidence of feed transmission go against the cattle industry? The CFIA, USDA, heck, EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS IT!
 

PORKER

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The EU. herd will hit 100 million cattle soon . They found out that testing every animal was the chincher to getting rid of BSE and now test all over thirty months plus pull all SRM's.
 

rkaiser

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First of all Mike. Feed transmission is not a fact, it is a theory. Backed by as many articles as you can possibly have time to dig up, but still and always, until proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, a theory.

Mike
Randy, Feed transmission is a fact. Proven over and over again. There were many in England that didn't believe it either and that is exactly why there were 40,000 positives after the feed ban, because people didn't believe it and kept feeding banned feed. In fact, you had one positive that got fed chicken or hog feed didn't you? Or suspected to have, anyway.

HMM. I didn't have a positive Mike. Are you talking about Canada?

This is a great study you have done Mike. How much time and govenment money was spent on this one.
and that is exactly why there were 40,000 positives after the feed ban, because people didn't believe it and kept feeding banned feed.

You think that information posted by Tim, Kathy or myself is laughable, give me a break.

If this is the kind of disgusting crap you want to beleive, go to it. Of couse this would lead YOU to beleive that the feed transission theory is not harmful to the industry.

If you were to look at the devastating effects that the feed transmission theory had on the cattle industry in the EU, you would understand what I mean. When an environmental problem occurs that causes a number of cases of BSE to appear in Canada or the USA, will you be the first to scream for mass slaughter Mike? Will you jump up and down and say that thousands of humans will die?

Keep talking about proof all you like, and ridicule those who do not agree with you. I still cannot help but question your motives. Why the need to YES go against the industry?

What the CFIA, USDA, and HECK everyone else needs is the truth MIKE. Not an unproven theory with ten year old flawed data to back it up.

If you are on such a mission, feed a group of your bottom end Chars yourself. Get some funding from your buds at the USDA (if you can) and do the study that needs to be done. Like we keep saying - With all the proof you have, the feed trial should bury us in a matter of months.

Do you even understand what I am saying Mike. Cause I seem to get that a lot?
 

PORKER

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Half the Problem in this world is that every country has to retest the facts as they can't take the truth from anywhere.Why do you have to repeat a test like BSE or Cancer or CJD?So one has already done it!!!
 

Mike

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Randy,

Feed transmission is past theory. It is fact. It also is the best friend of the cattle industry in the BSE crisis. We cannot (to a point) control all environmental aspects, (metals, etc.) but we CAN control what we feed cattle.

I never said that anything Kathy posted was laughable. I read her posts with earnesty and look forward to them.

The chicken/hog feed that I referred to was in Canada. I think I remember them saying that it had inadvertantly been fed to a positive animal earlier.

If you sincerely think that feed transmission is disgusting crap, then you are not on the same page as the scientific world. In fact, you are in the wrong book. :lol:
 

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LATEST news from Europe : BSE has been shown, in an experimentally infected English flock, to be passed for the first time, from sheep to their lambs. This is the first confirmation of “vertical” transmission of BSE from mother to offspring, something suspected but never proven in cattle.
 

rkaiser

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Don't worry Porker, I am not saying that we should not test cattle for BSE. In fact, I am a strong supporter of testing for marketing purposes. The whole world is afraid of BSE and vCJD because of all of the SUPPOSED facts displayed very well here on ranchers.net, and everywhere else. It's done. The world accepts it as Mike says. So we test.

Does that make it even more true. Is testing for BSE more proof that transmission and species jumping is real. Not for a second. It is simply part of the reality hysteria causes.

And while we join in on the hysteria, watch the beef industry destruct in the EU and maybe North America next. And sidestep the issue of metal contamination one more time, which will eventually be the solution to problems with all TSE's.

Come now folks, get with the picture. Transmission is a great excuse to deflect the blame from human initiated environmental problems.
 

rkaiser

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Sorry Mike, I was responding to Porker while you said your piece.

Read what I think about testing Mike. SRM removal is good. It is sending a good message to a frantic population.

And you can type the "transmission is fact" message until you are blue in the face. TRANSMISSION IS A THEORY.

Talking about one case of feeding chicken/hog feed to a bovine and thus a BSE postive is about as scientific as bugs bunny. There is no way to proove feed transmission in any documented BSE animal and you know it.
Think about it Mike. How can you prove that transmission caused any of the thousands of cases of BSE. Prove it Mike. Like I said. Do the test. Do a controlled test. Why won't you discuss that? Push your Alabama governor to do the test. Prove us all wrong once and for all.

Listen twister. I did not say that transmission is disgusting crap. I was refering to your simple explaination for the BSE cases after the feed ban. That sir, is the disgusting crap I was refering to.

You are right about one thing Mike, I am in a different book than you. Yours will lead you down the path of righteousnous obviously, mine will lead me to the truth. :wink:
 

Mike

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Randy, I didn't mean in any sense of the word that the chicken/hog fed caused the case in Canada. I simply meant to show that many in the UK didn't believe that feed was the culprit and caused the epidemic to extend.
Given the chance, the naysayers here might do the same.

There is no need to do further testing on feed transmission. It has been done. Besides, who would put money in a test that has already been proven? Even here in Alabama we are smarter than that! (grin)

I agree with you that testing for opening markets is warranted. SRM removal is needed for customer confidence also. I just wish they would remove all SRM's because of age discrepancies.

Our biggest enemies right now are the press and media. The USDA is not helping, due to the calamities of late and by putting the blood in the water for the feeding frenzy.

Don't even ask me what I think of the lastest fiasco concerning the packers not removing SRM's. :roll:

Have you read the UK BSE INQUIRY Randy? I know it's several hundred pages but is well worth it in showing that government was key in that they covered the disease up until they couldn't any longer. It is an apology to the public and cattlemen, and also a fact finding expedition. Purdey gives testimony and evidence as well as all other scientists involved. It's a good read.
 

rkaiser

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Sorry for not making myself clear Mike.

The only reason I will consider SRM removal and BSE testing legitimate is to quell the hysteria propeled by people like yourself and R2.

BSE transmission through feed is a flawed theory. You can post right back and call it fact if you feel comfortable and smarter than Tim and I if you like, but you are not going to convince me with anything but a simple live test. Why do you think that is such a difficult request? Why would the sceintific world be denied such a simple request? Because it is a comfortable excuse Mike. A safe, fanancially viable excuse. Please, please call me a conspiracy theory follower for those words now. I love that part. Especially when every one who follows the theory of transmission can not even explain how an indestructible misfolded prion can get from the gut to the brain. "Don't worry about that everyone" It just happens" My goodness - and Purdey gets blasted for far fetched ideas.
 

Mike

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Randy, It's funny you mentioned how the prion is digested.


New study shows how Mad Cow prions hitch a ride into intestine
They piggyback on iron-storing proteins after surviving digestive juices
December 28, 2004 | For more information: George Stamatis 216-368-3635

A new study from the Department of Pathology at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine shows that the infectious version of prion proteins, the main culprits behind the human form of mad cow disease or variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (vCJD), are not destroyed by digestive enzymes found in the stomach. Furthermore, the study finds that the infectious prion proteins, also known as prions, cross the normally stringent intestinal barrier by riding piggyback on ferritin, a protein normally absorbed by the intestine and abundantly present in a typical meat dish. The study appears in the Dec. 15 issue of the Journal of Neuroscience.

Prions are a modified form of normal proteins, the prion proteins, which become infectious and accumulate in the nervous system causing fatal neurodegenerative disease. Variant CJD results from eating contaminated beef products from cattle infected with mad cow disease. To date, 155 cases of confirmed and probable vCJD in the world have been reported, and it is unclear how many others are carrying the infection.

According to the study’s senior author Neena Singh, M.D., Ph.D., associate professor of pathology, little is known about the mechanism by which prions cross the human intestinal barrier, which can be a particularly difficult obstacle to cross.

“The mad cow epidemic is far from over, and the continuous spread of a similar prion disease in the deer and elk population in the U.S. raises serious public health concerns,” said Singh. “It is therefore essential to understand how this disease is transmitted from one species to another, especially in the case of humans where the infectious prions survive through stages of cooking and digestion.”

Using brain tissues infected with the spontaneously occurring version of CJD which is also caused by prions, the researchers simulated the human digestive process by subjecting the tissue to sequential treatment with digestive fluids as found in the human intestinal tract. They then studied how the surviving prions are absorbed by the intestine using a cell model. The prions were linked with ferritin, a cellular protein that normally binds excess cellular iron to store it in a soluble, non-toxic form within the cell.

“Since ferritin shares considerable similarity between species, it may facilitate the uptake of prions from distant species by the human intestine,” said Singh. “This important finding provides insight into the cellular mechanisms by which infectious prions ingested with contaminated food cross the species barrier, and provides the possibility of devising practical methods for blocking its uptake,” she said. “If we can develop a method of blocking the binding of prions to ferritin, we may be able to prevent animals from getting this disease through feed, and stop the transmission to humans.”

Currently, Singh’s group is checking whether prions from distant species such as deer and elk can cross the human intestinal barrier.

The study was supported by National Institutes of Health grants.

Link for proof of authenticity:

http://www.case.edu/news/2004/12-04/madcow.htm


Do you realize that these prions are hitching a ride on ferritin? It's a metal Randy! Purdey might be on to something here!
 

rkaiser

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Interesting Mike. Would you say that this fellow is talking of prions, or the misfolded prion. We all know that prions exist in Brain tissue, and Central nervuos tissue so moving prions through the system might happen. What difference does it make if an existing prion becomes misfolded or prion piggybacked into the system becomes misfolded.

Do you know if he is talking of a misfolded prion Mike? Because even the use of the word infectious prion in his statement puts him in the questionable catagory. What is the infectious version of prion proteins?

Not really rocket sceince here Mike. The prion may move but still needs the rouge metal atmosphere once it reaches the CNS or brain to become misfolded. Or how is it that you beleive the prion becomes misfolded and problematic?
 

Mike

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rkaiser said:
Interesting Mike. Would you say that this fellow is talking of prions, or the misfolded prion. We all know that prions exist in Brain tissue, and Central nervuos tissue so moving prions through the system might happen. What difference does it make if an existing prion becomes misfolded or prion piggybacked into the system becomes misfolded.

Do you know if he is talking of a misfolded prion Mike? Because even the use of the word infectious prion in his statement puts him in the questionable catagory. What is the infectious version of prion proteins?

Not really rocket sceince here Mike. The prion may move but still needs the rouge metal atmosphere once it reaches the CNS or brain to become misfolded. Or how is it that you beleive the prion becomes misfolded and problematic?

I believe the writer of this article refers to the prion as the misfolded prion protein. I don't put much faith in the article writer himself and am looking for the actual abstract of the study.

If the prion is connected to the "Ferritin" it could possibly hitch a ride all the way into the brain through the blood supply. We are down to almost the atomic level here.

Replication of prions are past my comprehension ability Randy. I do not understand it at all.
 

rkaiser

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12. The aim of this research is to uncover the science of TSEs, in particular their

nature and means of transmission; to develop countermeasures at many points in

the food chain; to protect the health of the UK population; and to engage the

public in the research and its application.

Took this off the original article R2 posted. Is this all right with you Mike. If you think these people should stop any further research into "means of transmission", maybe you should give them a call.

As far as the hitch hike ride Mike; like I said, a prion could possibly go for the ride, however prions exist in the brain anyway. What harm could one more do. Your metal transfer is truth however, and metals at their atomic level can invade the brain and thus misfold the prion when it tries to attract something like copper and manganese is all that the prion can find.
 

Mike

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rkaiser said:
12. The aim of this research is to uncover the science of TSEs, in particular their

nature and means of transmission; to develop countermeasures at many points in

the food chain; to protect the health of the UK population; and to engage the

public in the research and its application.

Took this off the original article R2 posted. Is this all right with you Mike. If you think these people should stop any further research into "means of transmission", maybe you should give them a call.

As far as the hitch hike ride Mike; like I said, a prion could possibly go for the ride, however prions exist in the brain anyway. What harm could one more do. Your metal transfer is truth however, and metals at their atomic level can invade the brain and thus misfold the prion when it tries to attract something like copper and manganese is all that the prion can find.

I absolutely agree that more TSE research is necessary! The transmission study that showed blood transfusion in sheep possibly transmitted BSE was quite a relevation itself.

I'm not worried about feed transmission, that's been done over and over.

Good night!
 

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Mike your statement: "We are down to almost the atomic level here.", hits the nail on the head.

When the PrPC protein is subjected to "deteriorating conditions" - being imbalances of metals within its domain (nervous system), the protein misfolds (changes its tertiary structure). Certain building blocks of the prion have altered states which only happen at the atomic level. Single metal ions that attach to the PrPC can change its tertiary structure. Dr. David Brown of Univ. of Bath, has shown, time and again, that the substitution of copper ions with manganese ions, resulted in the exact tertiary changes associated with BSE.

I would strongly suggest you read some of his research on metals and disease. I see the research is now leaning towards oxidative stresses being a huge contributing factor to prion diseases.

As for transmission visa feed. This is not happening in the manner we are told. I note that milk replacer is a common culprit in many reports of transmission. Most milk replacers (at least here in Alberta) are excessively high in manganese; as is our well and dugout water. (Also certain trace minerals are excessively high in manganese. I have noted others on Ranchers comment on mineral supplements, and also a friend brought me back feed/mineral labels from the NW USA. There are many trace mineral supplements there that do not contain manganese - so why is it our must?

Transmission "experiments" must first break apart the prion into its building blocks, prior to injection or drenching. It is the metals within these prions that are spreading disease. To acknowledge this, would be to admit that for 25 years we have been calling a toxic disease, infectious. Sadly, I believe pride is what prevents the change in terminology.

Transmission visa feed "OF WHAT, I SAY". A chemical slurry of poisons. Just think of all the products put in and on our living food.

What do you think HACCP is all about?
 

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