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Today? - Tommorrow?

katrina

Well-known member
cutterone said:
Glad to see many of you are optimistic yet I didn't really get the answers I was looking for. Yes, we have gone through tough times many times before and I too love what I do and think we are doing a good job of producing a good product BUT- there is also reality. "Are you really making it or just hanging on one step ahead of the banker for better times?"
Seems to me that costs, regulations, imports, land developement and just overall cost of living is going to be the downfall of many no matter how much they love doing what they do and how good of a job they do. They will just be swept away when the dam breaks.
Mike C just posted a post about the high prediction costs of grain and the posibility that even more acres may be taken out of pasture and hay to be put into corn and beans which means yet another obsticle for beef production at least in the east and midwest and non feasable costs to "grain out" feedlot cattle to say nothing about hogs and poultry.
I truthfully feel that if this happens it won't matter because the total economy will fail everywhere and we won't be conducting business as we know it. Those of us that know how to survive will do so - even if means "packin iron" to drive off the city slickers!

Cutter, You have to think outside the box...... And negitivity feeds negitivity...
Here is an example: We turned out claves out on the alfalfala feild this year after they were weaned good instead of feeding them in the lots. Thus feeding less corn, we have silage and ground hay.. Calves are growing like weeds.... Have you tried distillers grain?
There is more ways to skin a cat, so's to speak. Every year it seems like we are doing something differant.
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
mrj said:
No, RobertMac, I'm not delusional. Unfortunately for you, I can see through your agenda of pushing the perception that conventionally produced beef is inferior to your grass fed beef, therefore you insist that I don't know what I'm talking about.


mrj

It is delusional to compare 185,000 cases of BSE in the UK to the hand full in North America!!!

As far as conventional vs. grassfed...nothing to be gained going there. What ever I proved, you wouldn't believe it until NCBA told you to!!! :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Question though...as far as BSE and E.coli 0157:H7 are concerned, who is at fault, the cattle or the humans that manage them???????
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
katrina said:
cutterone said:
Glad to see many of you are optimistic yet I didn't really get the answers I was looking for. Yes, we have gone through tough times many times before and I too love what I do and think we are doing a good job of producing a good product BUT- there is also reality. "Are you really making it or just hanging on one step ahead of the banker for better times?"
Seems to me that costs, regulations, imports, land developement and just overall cost of living is going to be the downfall of many no matter how much they love doing what they do and how good of a job they do. They will just be swept away when the dam breaks.
Mike C just posted a post about the high prediction costs of grain and the posibility that even more acres may be taken out of pasture and hay to be put into corn and beans which means yet another obsticle for beef production at least in the east and midwest and non feasable costs to "grain out" feedlot cattle to say nothing about hogs and poultry.
I truthfully feel that if this happens it won't matter because the total economy will fail everywhere and we won't be conducting business as we know it. Those of us that know how to survive will do so - even if means "packin iron" to drive off the city slickers!

Cutter, You have to think outside the box...... And negitivity feeds negitivity...
Here is an example: We turned out claves out on the alfalfala feild this year after they were weaned good instead of feeding them in the lots. Thus feeding less corn, we have silage and ground hay.. Calves are growing like weeds.... Have you tried distillers grain?
There is more ways to skin a cat, so's to speak. Every year it seems like we are doing something differant.

Cutter, like Katrina says, we cattle producers have options...like longer on grass and shorter time on finishing feed. What options do the pork and poultry boys have??????? The price spread between pork/poultry and beef will shrink...helps our demand!!!! :D
 

cutterone

Well-known member
Katrina
I'm really not negative about the cattle thing - I think my wife & I are raising some of the best cattle in the area and doing a good job of it considering the state of things. There are days when I feel I've worn the edges off that box! We had a very bad year with little pasture & hay but managed to put up some, silage (which was about 1/3 the price of hay) and corn stocks and our cows look really good. Distillers was available for a while but now they are drying it and getting about 75% of the corn price for it. Land prices have reached about $6000 an acres around here and cash rents right with them. Much of the underpar ground which used to be available for pasture and hay is being eaten up for housing and some tillable crops. I'm really more concerned with the overall general economy that will affect our end.
In your area you will be able to at least grass cattle and that may turn out the only way to finish out cattle if grain prices continue to go through the roof!
I had the priviledge to visit your area of the country a few years back. I was invited to attend a spring round up and worked on 5 ranches and met some of the nicest folks (and particulary kids) not to mention great cattle! Thought I would throw my arm off ropin calves!
 

mrj

Well-known member
Katrina, have you bought or priced any distillers lately? It has really jumped. We are using some, but it may be pricier than corn, right now, in our area at least. Politicians are sacrificing beef production to ethanol, right now. Hopefully it will work out when other sources of ethanol prove less costly. I do believe we need to use the stuff to get less dependent on imported oil until we can get the ecofreako's to let more fossil fuels be produced within the USA.

RobertMac, some of us have been feeding "longer on grass and a shorter time on feed" for a very long time. It isn't anything new out in the west. IMO, the matter of Grass-Fed Beef, versus Grain Fed Beef, is more a matter of personal choice, than any real health benefit from Grass Fed, AT THIS POINT IN TIME. There is much that has to be sorted out yet regarding genetics, type of feed, climates, and fatty acid research etc. to have hard facts on comparison of the values of varying fatty acids and other micro-nutrients in the beef between the two methods.

And, I wasn't "comparing" the numbers of UK BSE cases with US cases, but the disaster that being totally unprepared for BSE is over there as compared with the benefit of informing consumers of the known facts had for US cattle producers.

Too, I was thinking of, but didn't get it down, that the difference between the UK practice of feeding by-products from scrapie infected sheep to their cattle might have been a saving grace for US producers.

Re. the "fault" for BSE and E. coli, how can that be determined when there is too little known?

Do we know absolutely that it is only carelessness in the packing plant that exposes the meat to E Coli?

Why was there such a drop in incidence as the 72% between 2000 and this recent outbreak?

Why, and where, did the protocols put in place which helped to drop that incidence fail?

Whose fault is it when a company puts many expensive systems designed to stop E coli into action and they, after being successful for some time, apparently fail for no reason that can be found?

Certainly it is the "fault" of Topps for failing to follow their own rules for cleaning their machinery and testing incoming meat. NO ONE has disputed that, so far as I've heard. They are being punished. What more do you want, a firing squad????

Until you show us a plant up and working that can and will guarantee NO possible contamination of the beef going out, it seems we have to expect everyone to do the best they can to safeguard our product, and that includes proper sanitation in homes and other places where food is prepared, and personally, I'd want workers in contact with food tested for the bacterial counts in their own gut!

mrj
 

katrina

Well-known member
cutterone said:
Katrina
I'm really not negative about the cattle thing - I think my wife & I are raising some of the best cattle in the area and doing a good job of it considering the state of things. There are days when I feel I've worn the edges off that box! We had a very bad year with little pasture & hay but managed to put up some, silage (which was about 1/3 the price of hay) and corn stocks and our cows look really good. Distillers was available for a while but now they are drying it and getting about 75% of the corn price for it. Land prices have reached about $6000 an acres around here and cash rents right with them. Much of the underpar ground which used to be available for pasture and hay is being eaten up for housing and some tillable crops. I'm really more concerned with the overall general economy that will affect our end.
In your area you will be able to at least grass cattle and that may turn out the only way to finish out cattle if grain prices continue to go through the roof!
I had the priviledge to visit your area of the country a few years back. I was invited to attend a spring round up and worked on 5 ranches and met some of the nicest folks (and particulary kids) not to mention great cattle! Thought I would throw my arm off ropin calves!

Sounds like to me cutter you are just worrying to much.. You're doing a great job!!! Drought is a nasty thing. Everyone of us here has been through it. Right mike? Nicky too.......
I and the rest of us would like to see your cattle operation so get that camara out and get to clicking....... :D :D
$6000.00 an acre back there would buy alot of sandhill here...... :D :D
And we could keep that arm in shape! :D :wink:

mrj, I haven't priced distillers.......So that is my fault on that... It was just an idea on other commodities for feed.
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
mrj said:
RobertMac, some of us have been feeding "longer on grass and a shorter time on feed" for a very long time. It isn't anything new out in the west. IMO, the matter of Grass-Fed Beef, versus Grain Fed Beef, is more a matter of personal choice, than any real health benefit from Grass Fed, AT THIS POINT IN TIME. There is much that has to be sorted out yet regarding genetics, type of feed, climates, and fatty acid research etc. to have hard facts on comparison of the values of varying fatty acids and other micro-nutrients in the beef between the two methods.

CLA is real...it is a proven cancer fighter...it is known to be created by rumen bacteria digesting chlorophyll!
Omega-3 and Omega-6 are essential fatty acids that humans must get from our diet(we can't produce them). The balance of these is the critical issue...in nature and the healthy the ratio is 2-1(omega-6) to 1(omega-3), which is the ratio in grassfed beef. Excess omega-6 in the western diet is receiving blame for health problems...the ratio in the avg. American diet is 20 to 1...grainfed beef is 4 to 1. Does this mean grainfed beef is harmful? ABSOLUTELY NOT...it just makes it the second best, most nutrient dense, health beneficial food humans can eat!


And, I wasn't "comparing" the numbers of UK BSE cases with US cases, but the disaster that being totally unprepared for BSE is over there as compared with the benefit of informing consumers of the known facts had for US cattle producers.

This is what you wrote...
mrj wrote:
It has been very widely acknowledged (....) that NCBA efforts kept BSE from being the total disaster here that it was in England.
The "total disaster" was thousands of cattle carcasses burning throughout the country...do you really believe it would have mattered what NCBA's "efforts" were if we had the same "total disaster"????

Too, I was thinking of, but didn't get it down, that the difference between the UK practice of feeding by-products from scrapie infected sheep to their cattle might have been a saving grace for US producers.

We don't feed industrial byproducts?

Re. the "fault" for BSE and E. coli, how can that be determined when there is too little known?

E.coli 0157:H7 is a product of acid rumen and digestive tract problems.
More needs to be learned about BSE. I think the key is finding out the reason for the 185,000 cases in England...a management problem!


Do we know absolutely that it is only carelessness in the packing plant that exposes the meat to E Coli?

It is, undeniably and by far, the most likely place...and IS preventable...per your sited reduction in recent outbreaks!!

Why was there such a drop in incidence as the 72% between 2000 and this recent outbreak?

Increased testing by FSIS...above and beyond plant HACCP protocols! In other words, proactive inspectors...which more of is needed!

Why, and where, did the protocols put in place which helped to drop that incidence fail?

Failure to test "USDA Inspected" product coming into plants!

Whose fault is it when a company puts many expensive systems designed to stop E coli into action and they, after being successful for some time, apparently fail for no reason that can be found?

I know about the steam problem where the bacteria road the water vapor throughout the plants. Tell what others you are referring to.

Certainly it is the "fault" of Topps for failing to follow their own rules for cleaning their machinery and testing incoming meat. NO ONE has disputed that, so far as I've heard. They are being punished. What more do you want, a firing squad????

Firing squad...you're being juvenile.
Topps is at fault for not following their HACCP protocol. USDA inspectors are responsible for making sure that management follows their HACCP protocol. I'm not sure that FSIS allows testing of "USDA Inspected" product coming into a plant...this should be a requirement for all grind plants and allowed in 'further processing' plants.


Until you show us a plant up and working that can and will guarantee NO possible contamination of the beef going out, it seems we have to expect everyone to do the best they can to safeguard our product, and that includes proper sanitation in homes and other places where food is prepared, and personally, I'd want workers in contact with food tested for the bacterial counts in their own gut!

Contamination in homes and restaurants are isolated events. There can be no laws to prevent stupidity in homes and restaurants will suffer the local health department and public opinion.

mrj
 

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