• If you are having problems logging in please use the Contact Us in the lower right hand corner of the forum page for assistance.

Trade War With Canada Begins

burnt

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
Burnt, "There you go displaying that faulty reasoning again. You seem to presume that the reason they need bailout money is because of foreign competition."

The presumption is all yours. Where did I even hint that foreign competition was the problem?



Because banning foreign competition is what this thread is about, diverter!!!! How stupid do you think we are to slip that one past us??



You think the country should reward THEM with bailout money just because they are American?

No, I don't. I think that companies that can't compete should be allowed to fail.

Perhaps your would answer this question - would a bank throw free or no-interest money at an inefficient customer when his neighbour could produce the same thing for less money? And that efficient neighbour is also borrowing money from the same bank at premium interest rates?

That's a poor example, a bank doesn't take a cut off of a productive company like the government does. A bank takes the same amount whether you make $50 on your calves or $150.


Well, well, my examples are stupid but yours are solid, it appears. That is why I will not address your "examples".





I don't think that the government should be held hostage by the domestic suppliers as you seem to think. If the Canadian widget is 50 cents and the US one is $1.50, clearly the public's money is better spent on the Canuck version. However, you have to realize that, because of the net effect of the purchase via the collection of taxes, that $1.50 will actually be less. How much less is for a good economist to pencil out, and that will be the decider.




What you fail to realize is that there is often about .50 cents worth of graft money in that $1.50 product because it is a captive market. That is a strange thing since you sure like to rail on the effect of captive supply in the cattle business.



We had an issue much like this in our town. We had a lot that the village was going to sell. We got two bids, one was twice the amount of the other. We accepted the lower bid. The reason was that the guy that submitted the highest bid wasn't going to do anything with the land, he just didn't want the other guy to have it. It would of turned into a weed patch. The guy with the lowest bid was going to build a business on that lot. That would increase the tax assessment of the land. That business would pump revenue into the community and create wealth. If we were measuring how much money we would have in one month, the highest bid made sense. However, we looked at the bigger picture and realized that the village would make much more money over the long haul by accepting the lower bid. This is the same concept as a government buying from those that pay taxes to it. You have to look at the bigger picture and see where the money really is going to be made/saved.


If the buyer got a cheap piece of land because of favoritism, was he not then the beneficiary of an unfair subsidy?? Thus, his product created an unfair market for others in his line of business?

So yes, it was good for him and city hall, but not so good for his competition which would eventually suffer because of unfair government decisions. There you go again with your smoke and mirrors stuff, Sandhusker.
 

burnt

Well-known member
Well I totally mixed up the above post since I don't know how to do tidy quote and response . . . . don't burn up brain cells trying to figure it out.
 

Mrs.Greg

Well-known member
S.S.A.P. said:
Sandhusker said:
..... You have to look at the bigger picture and see where the money really is going to be made/saved.[/b]

I went to your two gas stations Sandhusker.

The one offering the 20% cash-back:
- charged $1.50 to check my oil
- their quart of oil was 50 cents more than across the street
- another 50 cents to wet the window washer (25 cents more if you wanted soap)
- there was no can to throw my garbage in
- I had to feed the washroom door a dollar to open
- the coffee was a 50 cents more
- the fuel bill had a $1.50 'processing fee" added
- I don't remember the name of the American company owning it, which is strange because there isn't that many pulling domestic oil out of the ground.

All said I think I will go back to the one NOT offering the cash-back
- it was a Co-op, 100% owned by local members
- the quart of oil and coffee were each 50 cents cheaper, there was a garbage can by the pumps, no charge for the washroom and the only other cost on the bill was the chocolate bar I picked up.
- I also had a nice chat with the young lady while she fueled me up, checked my oil and washed my windows. WARNING: emotional part~ Turns out she graduates this year and has been working here, after school for three years - adding to her college fund.

AND guess who I seen in there while I wrote a cheque out? In the back was "coffee row" (honor system for coffee) It was OT. He likely recognized the vehicles of the regulars here (while getting his 'cash-back' across the street) and popped over to tell them about the latest shirt-tail riders.

So - looking at the big picture: I saved money and made the member's dividend payments larger by not patronizing the cash-back place.
Good post!! :)


Mogal....thats right I forgot...the US forefathers had a covenant with God :roll: You & Aplus should get a bible thumping post going and you can debate 'Bible Facts" not based on emotion of course :wink:

Aplus...your right I was acting childish last eve. Sandy ticked me off in Both Political & Bull,then Mogal sent me over the edge. At leasat I admit my shortcomings,ALOT of my posts are based on emotion from love of my Country
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Burnt "If the buyer got a cheap piece of land because of favoritism, was he not then the beneficiary of an unfair subsidy?? Thus, his product created an unfair market for others in his line of business? "

If you're asking about favoritism, then you didn't read/understand our reasoning.

"So yes, it was good for him and city hall, but not so good for his competition ...."

The man has no competition in the community. He's starting a new business.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
S.S.A.P. said:
Sandhusker said:
..... You have to look at the bigger picture and see where the money really is going to be made/saved.[/b]

I went to your two gas stations Sandhusker.

The one offering the 20% cash-back:
- charged $1.50 to check my oil
- their quart of oil was 50 cents more than across the street
- another 50 cents to wet the window washer (25 cents more if you wanted soap)
- there was no can to throw my garbage in
- I had to feed the washroom door a dollar to open
- the coffee was a 50 cents more
- the fuel bill had a $1.50 'processing fee" added
- I don't remember the name of the American company owning it, which is strange because there isn't that many pulling domestic oil out of the ground.

All said I think I will go back to the one NOT offering the cash-back
- it was a Co-op, 100% owned by local members
- the quart of oil and coffee were each 50 cents cheaper, there was a garbage can by the pumps, no charge for the washroom and the only other cost on the bill was the chocolate bar I picked up.
- I also had a nice chat with the young lady while she fueled me up, checked my oil and washed my windows. WARNING: emotional part~ Turns out she graduates this year and has been working here, after school for three years - adding to her college fund.

AND guess who I seen in there while I wrote a cheque out? In the back was "coffee row" (honor system for coffee) It was OT. He likely recognized the vehicles of the regulars here (while getting his 'cash-back' across the street) and popped over to tell them about the latest shirt-tail riders.

So - looking at the big picture: I saved money and made the member's dividend payments larger by not patronizing the cash-back place.

While you're going to rediculous lengths to embellish a simple example in order to provide needless and usless confusion, let me add that it was the COOP that had the discount and that the other guy not only was an alcoholic, wife beater, and child molester, he was just arrested for stealing from the orphan's fund.

:roll:
 

burnt

Well-known member
Ridiculous lengths according to whom? There is no such thing as a simple illustration in real life and that is where you become lost, Sandhusker. All you see is black and white when in reality life is technicolor, including more than just a few shades of gray.

Further, your "simple illustration" is in no way capable of including all the complex dynamics of the situation.
 

MoGal

Well-known member
Mogal....thats right I forgot...the US forefathers had a covenant with God Rolling Eyes You & Aplus should get a bible thumping post going and you can debate 'Bible Facts" not based on emotion of course Wink

Aplus...your right I was acting childish last eve. Sandy ticked me off in Both Political & Bull,then Mogal sent me over the edge. At leasat I admit my shortcomings,ALOT of my posts are based on emotion from love of my Country

Where do you get off thinking I don't love my country either??? I most assuredly and certainly do. It ticks me off that big business has hollowed out this countrys economy based on greed and profits. Do you think I enjoy seeing people unemployed???? Do you think I enjoy seeing farmers go under because they can't make a go of it??? Do you think I enjoy seeing American beef producers getting less for their cattle because we import twice what we export??? Do you??? Are you so narrow minded that you think its alright for Americans to go to serfdom just so Canada can keep up an unfair trade balance or any other country for that matter.

I don't want to see other countries go under, but I am sick and tired of other countries thinking Americans should make them prosperous.



I've got to go pick up JD parts (they have forgotton the price of steel has gone down and those knife guards are $13 a piece.... ( so much for the hubby saying they should be about $5) I wonder how many of them they can make from a ton of scrap iron that sells for less than $200 because I know they don't weigh a ton and I have paid more than that for them.
Mrs. Greg, unless you're traveling over the USA, there are a lot of people out there that think we should buy American to put Americans back to work and its gonna get worse. Obama's team has went to China to beg them to buy treasuries as they even admit it will be 2011 before the USA starts picking up (you won't find that on MSM news either) and someone has poured roundup on their "green shoots".
 

burnt

Well-known member
MoGal said:
Mogal....thats right I forgot...the US forefathers had a covenant with God Rolling Eyes You & Aplus should get a bible thumping post going and you can debate 'Bible Facts" not based on emotion of course Wink

Aplus...your right I was acting childish last eve. Sandy ticked me off in Both Political & Bull,then Mogal sent me over the edge. At leasat I admit my shortcomings,ALOT of my posts are based on emotion from love of my Country

Where do you get off thinking I don't love my country either??? I most assuredly and certainly do. It ticks me off that big business has hollowed out this countrys economy based on greed and profits. Do you think I enjoy seeing people unemployed???? Do you think I enjoy seeing farmers go under because they can't make a go of it??? Do you think I enjoy seeing American beef producers getting less for their cattle because we import twice what we export??? Do you??? Are you so narrow minded that you think its alright for Americans to go to serfdom just so Canada can keep up an unfair trade balance or any other country for that matter.

I don't want to see other countries go under, but I am sick and tired of other countries thinking Americans should make them prosperous.



I've got to go pick up JD parts (they have forgotton the price of steel has gone down and those knife guards are $13 a piece.... ( so much for the hubby saying they should be about $5) I wonder how many of them they can make from a ton of scrap iron that sells for less than $200 because I know they don't weigh a ton and I have paid more than that for them.
Mrs. Greg, unless you're traveling over the USA, there are a lot of people out there that think we should buy American to put Americans back to work and its gonna get worse. Obama's team has went to China to beg them to buy treasuries as they even admit it will be 2011 before the USA starts picking up (you won't find that on MSM news either) and someone has poured roundup on their "green shoots".

MoGal, your post was kinda hard to follow, but if those guards were made in the USA and cost $13 compared to imports that cost $5 which is where hubby thinks they should be priced, which would you buy?

Furthermore, who owns those "big businesses" to which you refer?
 

S.S.A.P.

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
S.S.A.P. said:
Sandhusker said:
..... You have to look at the bigger picture and see where the money really is going to be made/saved.[/b]

I went to your two gas stations Sandhusker.

The one offering the 20% cash-back:
- charged $1.50 to check my oil
- their quart of oil was 50 cents more than across the street
- another 50 cents to wet the window washer (25 cents more if you wanted soap)
- there was no can to throw my garbage in
- I had to feed the washroom door a dollar to open
- the coffee was a 50 cents more
- the fuel bill had a $1.50 'processing fee" added
- I don't remember the name of the American company owning it, which is strange because there isn't that many pulling domestic oil out of the ground.

All said I think I will go back to the one NOT offering the cash-back
- it was a Co-op, 100% owned by local members
- the quart of oil and coffee were each 50 cents cheaper, there was a garbage can by the pumps, no charge for the washroom and the only other cost on the bill was the chocolate bar I picked up.
- I also had a nice chat with the young lady while she fueled me up, checked my oil and washed my windows. WARNING: emotional part~ Turns out she graduates this year and has been working here, after school for three years - adding to her college fund.

AND guess who I seen in there while I wrote a cheque out? In the back was "coffee row" (honor system for coffee) It was OT. He likely recognized the vehicles of the regulars here (while getting his 'cash-back' across the street) and popped over to tell them about the latest shirt-tail riders.

So - looking at the big picture: I saved money and made the member's dividend payments larger by not patronizing the cash-back place.

While you're going to rediculous lengths to embellish a simple example in order to provide needless and usless confusion, let me add that it was the COOP that had the discount and that the other guy not only was an alcoholic, wife beater, and child molester, he was just arrested for stealing from the orphan's fund.

:roll:

I'm happy to see that you've added your own "pointless and usless confusion" to the bigger picture. The bigger picture is often made up of little pictures within?? With your embellishment it appears that the Co-op was a better place to purchase from all along. Since you were obviously there before me, the Co-op must have realized they didn't need to offer cash-back and discontinued it. By the time I got there, the other place (American owned franchise) must have already been feeling the pinch of the owner's improprieties and used the cash-back idea from the Co-op.
 

MoGal

Well-known member
MoGal, your post was kinda hard to follow, but if those guards were made in the USA and cost $13 compared to imports that cost $5 which is where hubby thinks they should be priced, which would you buy?

Furthermore, who owns those "big businesses" to which you refer?

I have found so many times especially with chinese imports, that the quality isn't there. I prefer to purchase quality, even if its a little bit more. I have no idea where JD makes its parts but my hubby (and many folks in this area) are dyed in the wool JD owners. I personally, think they charge too much for their name.

This is a JD 1209 and these "knife guards" are kind of what goes over the blade of a sickle mower (if I had to make a comparison). Its a round piece of metal with 2 points (just in case you weren't sure what I was referring to and I hope I haven't made it more confusing). By purchasing 20 of them, that is $260 and they are nowhere near a ton in weight. Now , a ton of scrap iron sells less than $200 ton and I'm just saying I wonder how many of these knife guards they could make out of a ton of scrap iron. I know, I know, I'm paying $10 each for the green paint and JD logo...... lol.

Actually, many of these big businesses used to belong to USA owners but since America has been on sale for quite a while now, many of these businesses are foreign owned (mostly European Union).

Five central banks (privately foreign owned) own 53% of the Federal Reserve which makes you wonder how they could be so broke when they've never been audited and have gotton interest from our government for printing money out of nothing (just a computer stroke) since 1913. We most definitely should stop paying them interest.
 

Richard Doolittle

Well-known member
While you're going to rediculous lengths to embellish a simple example in order to provide needless and usless confusion, let me add that it was the COOP that had the discount and that the other guy not only was an alcoholic, wife beater, and child molester, he was just arrested for stealing from the orphan's fund.

The point was well-made that you can't use simplistic examples and compare them to real-world problems.

How about this modification to your gas station example:

Forget about the rebate. Two stations operate in small town America. Gas prices are the same, as is the case 95% of the time, and all other services are comparable. One station is owned and operated by members of your community who are well thought of and are very supportive of functions in your small town. The other is owned by someone from a neighboring town across the state line. You don't have anything against the other town, but the out of town owners just don't support your community like the owners of the other station. Because of this, a good share of the people in your community buy their gas at the locally owned and operated station. The other station's sales are dismal and if they don't pick up, it is in danger of closing it's doors. Your Sister, a single mother of 3, manages the station for the out of town owners. This is her sole source of income. They pay her a fair wage and she is able to support her family. Jobs are hard to come by in town, so if the station closes she will be unemployed.

Your Suburban is out of gas. Where are you going to fill it up?
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
I'm going to fill up at the local's station. That's probably where she's buying her gas since the other guy is sponsoring her kid's little league teams. His business will grow and as it does, he will need experienced help. My sister will the most qualified for the job.

Or, since the whole community is like the other guy and does their business locally and keep that dollar bouncing from the gas station to the grocery store to the hardware store to the restaurant to the gas station.... those businesses are doing well and maybe she'll go work at the restaurant or the hardware store or the grocery store....
 

Broke Cowboy

Well-known member
One of the interesting things about being away for a while - I am at home and rained out from my favourite job - fencing. Not! - is coming back and reading up on what is happening.

But coming back here and seeing how things can get carried away on this board, I like to think there will be a bit more "calm" between governments when all this trouble comes down the pipe.

You see, the thing is - the United States also EXPORTS a lot of materials.

What if no one buys?

Right now the biggest trading partner to the U.S. of A. is Canada.

A billion plus dollars a day. So there are a lot of jobs on BOTH sides of the border that are at risk if this escalates.

It is NOT a one way street. I often wonder why that gets forgotten.

The economic power house to the south of Canada simply cannot go it alone. To think otherwise is extremely foolish and down right risky.

Start pulling contracts and start pulling previously honoured deals will do nothing more than create retaliation. And while the Canadian economy is far smaller, it has a huge effect on employment south of the border.

I just bought a couple of electric fencers that were made in the U.S. of A. - could have bought Canadian - but these were a better quality - however - that does not mean that I will buy American next time.

Maybe a few of us will get together and "knock off" a fencer - and sell it here under a different colour and name - with "Made in Canada" on the back - if it gets bad there will be a lot of this happening - one tiny change and that world wide patent no longer applies - if it gets down right dirty perhaps no one will even care and we could make them exact and change the colour - come and try me in the courts here? Maybe. Maybe not.

Not a big deal? Perhaps - but what about the thousands that get bought in Canada from Parmack and Gallagher? How many folks in the south are employed by this one little item?

Think about the simple things Johnson & Johnson supplies to Canada and the world - how many thousands of Americans do they employ?

Personally I hope the rhetoric displayed here will not be representative of the discussions that will start to take place on protectionism between our two countries.

If it gets down and dirty there will be serious and I do mean serious ramifications that will take place on both sides of said borders. Easy for someone who is sitting in the country and looking at a cattle herd to pontificate. They have food available and are not (usually) dependant upon high tech industries from afar or manufacturing plants that need parts available from only one place in the world.

To buy certain items from Canada means "bought at a discount" - nearly 25%. You might be able to make them at home - but the price just went up.

Now, if you live in a chicken coop for people and are on the tenth floor - trying to pay bills and feed a family and you are unable to get supplies at a decent price for your little manufacturing plant in XXX State because you are now forced to pay more from a U.S. of A. supplier - someone is going to be unemployed.

Fact is you cannot use all the goods you make - which is why you sell them abroad. Which is why you have trade with other nations.

With no foreign markets because everyone starts doing what is happening in the U.S. of A. - the giants are the countries that will be hurt - they have far more to lose.

It is going to become a very interesting time - and in all honesty, it is my opinion that once those trade contracts and agreements are broken - it will be hurt for both sides.

The one thing my friends from south of the border will probably not agree with me on is this:

Canada has expanded their trade with other nations and is now a major supplier to industry outside the confines of North America - and therefore in the long run will come out of this far better than those south of the border - the Canuck buck is almost a 50% discout to the Euro so it will actually get better for Canada over the next few years - especially since this country - within a couple of years can be completely independent of energy - just need to build a few pipelines - we are net EXPORTERS of energy.

Seems to me some folks here need to look a little farther afield than their home quarter section - or - in a few cases a little farther afield than their ranchettes.

Best to all

BC
 

per

Well-known member
Thanks Mrs. Greg and BC, good post. Already started I would say, I am aware of two companies that are dropping their US suppliers of certain products for South Korean lines. Go ahead and laugh it of, but these are proven quality products that South Korea supplies for less and are happy to do business.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
So what you're all telling me is that the concept of international trade is more important than a government's fiscal responsibility to the taxpayers.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. I think that a goverment has the responsibility to spend taxpayers dollars as wisely as possible.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
Mrs.Greg said:
Sandhusker said:
MG, I gave my reasons. I didn't get personal, you did. If you're going to blast me, at least have the decency to point out where my rationale is incorrect.
I'm calling you a liar,I Don't call people liar never have before but I am NOW. You attack my country YOU got personal.....

You Sandy wouldn't know decency if it splattered you in the face!!!




OT....watch it :roll: :wink:

I attacked your country?

Where did I attack your country?
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
So what you're all telling me is that the concept of international trade is more important than a government's fiscal responsibility to the taxpayers.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. I think that a goverment has the responsibility to spend taxpayers dollars as wisely as possible.

Problem is rather it is really being fiscal responsible or not?

Example: Democrats think they are being responsible when they raise taxes, but us Conservatives realize that even though they feel they are generating more tax revenue that in reality they will hurt that very thing with higher taxes.

To Mandate such spending restrictions could very well cost America Fiscally. If other countries limit their trade or regulate us with more scrutiny what may appear to be stimulated on the front end may be lost on the back end.

I am not talking in exacts, I am no economic guru, but I do see the other side of the slippery slope. And a strong action such as this may result in a strong reaction.

I am more interested in fixing the problems that keep Americans from competing in the market place than I am in restricting their foreign trade.

Dang I hope this does not cause the site to crash again! :lol:
 

Latest posts

Top