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TSR? what's up with this? Muslim Brotherhood

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Well-known member
Apr 12, 2008
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real world
TSR? what's up with this? Is this the "Democracy" that Zakaria was speaking of?

If the majority vote to kill those that believe differently than themselves, does that still count as "democracy"?

TSR said:
Sunday on Fareed Zakaria,GPS this issue was addressed. He said the ones that are the problem in Egypt moving forward towards democracy at this point were factions of the former gov. combined with the military. He basically said these were the ones to be feared at this time not the MB. I guess his take on the issue can be found by googling GPS if anybody's interested in another viewpoint.

PARIS (Reuters)- After months of reassuring secularist critics, Islamist politicians in Tunisia and Egypt have begun to lay down markers about how Muslim their states should be -- and first signs show they want more religion than previously admitted.

Islamist parties swept the first free elections in both countries in recent months after campaigns that stressed their readiness to work with the secularists they struggled with in the Arab Spring revolts against decades-long dictatorships.

With political deadlines looming, the Tunisian coalition led by the reformist Islamist Ennahda party and the head of Egypt's influential Muslim Brotherhood both made statements this week revealing a stronger emphasis on Islam in government.

Popular List, an Ennahda coalition member tasked with writing Tunisia's new constitution, announced on Monday its draft called Islam "the principle source of legislation" -- a phrase denoting laws based on the sharia moral and legal code.

On Tuesday, Egyptian Brotherhood leader Mohamed Badie said his group wanted a president with "an Islamic background." That term is vague, but not as vague as the conciliatory "consensus candidate" talk heard from most parties until now.

Secularists in both countries warned voters against trusting the Islamists and these subtle changes could have come straight from a secularist playbook on how Islamists would gradually insert more religion into the political and legal systems.


Ennahda leader Rachid Ghannouchi, a leading reformist Muslim thinker during his years in London exile, reassured secularists last year by agreeing with them that the first article of Tunisia's constitution should remain unchanged.

The article, which said Tunisia's language was Arabic and religion Islam, was "just a description of reality ... without any legal implications, he told Reuters in November. "There will be no other references to religion in the constitution."

In the draft constitution, Islam is described as Tunisia's religion "and the principal source of its legislation."

"Using Islamic sharia as a principle source of legislation will guarantee freedom, justice, social equality, consultation, human rights and the dignity of all its people, men and women," it says.

Mentioning sharia means all laws must be consistent with Islam, a condition found in many constitutions in Muslim countries. This can be interpreted broadly, or strictly if those vetting the legislation impose a narrow reading of Islam.

Reaction in Tunis to the draft has been muted so far because Ghannouchi is planning a news conference on Thursday where he will probably have to declare Ennahda's position on it.

Hachmi Hamdi, who supported Ennahda before forming Popular List, said the draft was more Islamic than expected because "the public that voted for us is a conservative public that wants sharia as the principle source of the constitution."


In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood has decided not to present its own candidate for the presidential election due in June and argued until now that it wanted a candidate acceptable to all.

Even Emad Abdel Ghaffour, head of the leading Salafi Islamist Nour Party, told this to Reuters two weeks ago. He said the sharia mention in Egypt's constitution should be retained without being tightened, as more hardline Salafis have urged.

But Badie told the daily newspaper of the Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party on Tuesday that "the candidate must have an Islamic background."

"It's clear now the Brotherhood are willing to throw their weight into the ring ...to support someone who is in line with Islamic values and is sympathetic to Islamic law," said Shadi Hamid, an expert on Islamist groups based at the Brookings Doha Center. "That will have major implications for the race."

Badie's comments seemed to rule out Brotherhood support for Amr Moussa, a former Egyptian foreign minister and Arab League secretary general seen as one of the frontrunners.

Lying between the two countries, Libya is also transforming its political system after ousting Muammar Gaddafi but has not yet held elections or begun work on a new constitution.

The chairman of the ruling National Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdul Jalal, has said Tripoli would take sharia as the source for its laws. Hundreds of Libyan Muslim Brothers and Salafists rallied last month to demand sharia law.

Hundreds of Libyan Muslim Brothers and Salafists rallied last month to demand sharia law.

and Thousands gathered together from the same group to burn churches with pastor and deacons locked inside.
The Islamist Muslim Brotherhood led the way in the first round of parliamentary voting in Egypt. Second place went to the even more hardline Salafist party al-Nour.

while some watch the powerful Muslim brotherhood, few are watching the Salafists.. an even scarier group of Sunni extremists..

The Salafists' strong showing hasn't just shocked many Egyptians, but especially the country's revolutionary youth, liberals and leftists, Coptic Christians and moderate Muslims. It was, after all, the Salafists who had agitated against the Copts and boycotted the revolution, on the grounds that it was infiltrated with "whores and Zionists." And it was also the Salafists who, until now, had rejected free elections as "un-Islamic." And now they are coming into power as democrats?

The Al-Nour Party was formed in the spring as a melting pot of various conservative and formerly militant groups. Its members were not exactly known for their democratic ambitions

Will the world soon watch as 5000 years of civilization, culture and artifacts are destroyed in the name of Islam?
A group of Egyptian lawyers, who belong to the Muslim Brotherhood political party, have filed lawsuits against a number of Egyptian female artists. The top of the list of artists to be sued are Egyptian actresses Summaya Al Khashab.

In the lawsuit filed, it was claimed that the said actresses present roles that are too provocative and encourage sexuality and other inappropriate behaviors.

first it was opposition to beach-goers.. then booze.. now..

Religion of Peace: Egypt Pyramids = Idols, must Go

.. members of the Nour (The Light) Salafist party, which won 20 per cent of the vote in recent elections, are talking about putting an end to the 'idolatry' represented by the pyramids .. This means destruction - along the lines essayed by the Afghan Taliban who blew up the Banyam Buddhas

Islamists want to destroy Egyptian pyramids

After the crime against humanity the Islamist Taliban committed by destroying the Bamiyan Buddhas, we should have expected that Islamist control of Egypt would threaten its pre-Islamic historic sites, including the Giza Pyramids, the Sphinx, the Valley of the Kings and the various other ancient pyramids across the country. And, those pre-Islamic sites are now in danger:

Surveying them at night as the calls to prayer multiplied into a thunder of sound from central Cairo already told me a few years back what was coming.
For now members of the Nour (The Light) Salafist party, which won 20 per cent of the vote in recent elections, are talking about putting an end to the 'idolatry' represented by the pyramids.
This means destruction - along the lines essayed by the Afghan Taliban who blew up the Banyam Buddhas -

[The Salafists] also want what they call 'halal' tourism, with women told to dress decorously and no alcohol, something pretty general already in conservative Egypt. The Salafists want segregated beaches, which will not go down well with visitors to Sharm el Sheikh.

Tourism accounts for 11 per cent of Egypt's $218billion GDP. Right now, hotels and resorts report falls in occupancy from 90 to 15 per cent.
This is bad news for the 3million Egyptians who depend on the 14million tourists who visit Egypt each year. The people affected are not simply waiters and chambermaids, but taxi drivers, camel and horse ride touts, shop and stall owners and ordinary villagers who make a bit on the side providing tea and snacks for Nile cruises.
One of the great tragedies of what is afoot in the Middle East is the extinction of the last vestiges of a vibrant, cosmopolitan culture, as represented by another great Egyptian novelist, the Cairo dentist, Alaa Al Aswany, author of the remarkable Yacoubian Building.
It is becoming hard to recall that in the 1950s - under King Farouk - Egypt had a thriving film industry, producing 300 movies a year, and that its national chanteuse, Umm Kulthum, was worshipped throughout the Middle East.
But now the fanatics are in the saddle, so its good bye to all that. We'll have to wait for fundamentalism to fail, as Nasserite 'national socialism' did before it. For Nour and the like surely have no answers to the problems of contemporary Egypt.

Nice. Islamists cannot create. Only destroy. So they must destroy the crations of others to hide the complete bankruptcy and, indeed, stupidity of their ideology.

How stupid? The Salafists want to destroy the Egyptian pyramids because of "idolatry." Except the pyramids were never meant to be idols and in fact never were idols. Nor do the pyramids represent any kind of deity or even human figure. They are basically tombstones. Giant, incredibly-constructed tombstones, but tombstones nonetheless. They are not generally believed to have been sites of worship of any kind.

Their real crime is that they are pre-Islamic. They show an Egyptian past that is much more glorious than anything in its Islamic past, much more glorious than anything the Salafists could ever conjure up. So they have to destroy it. Can't have that competition.

Destruction of the ancient Egyptian sites by Islamists was my greatest fear all along.

I was not overly shocked by the attacks on Christians, or even the burning of the churches with clergy inside.. most have know that the former regime protected religious diversity even when it felt little use for it..

I had not thought this would be an issue myself.. I felt they would destroy their tourism with stupid rules such as segregated fully clothed beaches or by eliminating alcohol, and encouraging fear..

but to actually call for the destruction of the cultural heritage does not seem like the same Egypt and it certainly doesn't add to that fair and balanced argument so naively presented..
if the murders of Americans doesn't cause a bit of concern for the Muslims,. or the burning of churches with the clergy locked inside..
or the proposal to rid Egypt of it's idols.. ''

then what about the hostage situation?

should it be ignored as well?

Like others, I believed the end of Mubarak's autocratic rule was something to celebrate, but I worried that what ultimately replaces Mubarak may not be worth celebrating. And sadly, a year later, elements of the Arab Spring are starting to resemble 1979, as evidenced by the brewing hostage crisis in Egypt.

Nineteen American citizens working for well-known and well-established nonprofit groups are being held on trumped-up charges that they tried to destabilize Egypt. Their offices were raided in late December, some are holed up in the U.S. embassy and all of them have been barred from flying out of Egypt.

Make no mistake: the president is not to blame for the hostages being taken, just as President Carter wasn't to blame for the Iranian hostage crisis. The hostage-takers, the thugs, the enemies of freedom bear that responsibility. But presidents are responsible for how their administrations respond to crises like this.

For months, Carter did nothing of substance in response to the embassy takeover, and when he tried to do something it proved worse than nothing. President Obama has said little and done nothing, at least not in public view, regarding the Cairo crisis.

This crisis has come about because the transitional regime in Egypt has decided to put on trial 19 Americans and two dozen others who are guilty of the apparent crime of trying to develop civil society and democracy. Seven of those defendants, who will go on trial on Friday, are actually in Egypt and unable to leave as long as the proceedings go on. Several have sought refuge at the U.S. embassy, like Cardinal Mindszenty, who lived in the U.S. embassy in Budapest for 15 years to escape Communist persecution. Those held hostage include Sam LaHood, son of a cabinet member, who is head of the International Republican Institute's Cairo office.

It is hard to imagine a more direct challenge to American power than this brazen decision to try our citizens on trumped up charges. If any of these NGO workers wind up in prison, it will be a permanent blot not only on the Egyptian government but also on the Obama administration for letting it happen. Put simply, nations do not act like this if they fear American power. Clearly, we are not inducing enough respect even in a country such as Egypt which is dependent on more than $1.5 billion in annual U.S. aid.

President Obama must intervene personally if necessary to resolve this crisis and get the authorities in Cairo to let our people go. Anything less would make us a laughingstock and a certain target of more affronts.

how little has changed since 1979

radical islamist and inept weak democratic presidents..
First of all I only posted what FZakaria said. I suppose anyone can still access his comments as well as yours and others and make up their own minds. Naturally their will be Muslim influence in any form of gov. in that region of the world as some form of gov. is trying to be formed.

Your postings imply that the MB is in complete control. I don't know, which is why I try to learn from more than one source, hence my post paraphrasing FZakaria on GPS and his view of the issue.

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