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Tyson Investigation Needed?

Mike

Well-known member
Investigation of Tyson deal needed
Posted: September 12, 1997
1:00 a.m. Eastern


Am I the only one who is struck with the idea that there is something very suspicious about the recent purchase of Hudson Foods by bigger rival Tyson Foods?

Hudson is the Arkansas food company shut down by the Agriculture Department for selling beef tainted with the deadly E. coli bacteria. Tyson is another Arkansas-based company and the nation's largest poultry producer. It is owned by Don Tyson, long-time friend and political contributor to Bill Clinton and a man investigated as a drug smuggler by state and federal law enforcement agencies. Because of the shutdown of Hudson, Tyson was able to buy the company at a bargain price of $642 million.

Armed with just those facts, this deal, which still needs to be approved by federal regulatory authorities, should raise eyebrows from coast to coast.

For starters, how did that E. coli find its way into Hudson meat? Was it carelessness, negligence or sabotage? Was this transaction being negotiated before the recall of 25 million pounds of hamburger meat or only after? Is it simply a remarkable coincidence that federal government actions benefited so directly one of Clinton's biggest supporters?

Hudson and Tyson have been long-time competitors. The much-smaller Hudson, like Tyson, specialized in poultry before branching out into the beef business only two years ago. James Hudson founded the business in 1972 and bought out poultry-processing operations in Arkansas and Missouri from Ralston Purina. Tyson reportedly had tried to buy Hudson several times in the past, but, until his E. coli problem arose, his offers were spurned.

Tyson was a key figure in the investigation of former Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy, who was indicted on federal charges two weeks ago. He also was a major supporter of Clinton's bid for the presidency in 1992, loaning the campaign millions at a time when it was faltering.

Three years ago, we found out that Tyson's general counsel, James Blair set up a sweetheart deal for Hillary Clinton to get into the cattle futures business. She parlayed a $1,000 investment into nearly $100,000 in a year.

Joseph Henrickson, a former pilot for Tyson, has testified that he flew cash payments from the company to Clinton while he served as governor of Arkansas. Memoranda that circulated in the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Arkansas State Police show that Tyson was under suspicion of drug dealing from the early 1970s until the late 1980s. A file dated March 25, 1976, states that Tyson "is an extremely wealthy man with much political influence and seems to be involved in almost every kind of shady operation, especially narcotics." The DEA also had a file on Tyson. He was never prosecuted for any drug offense.

Let's also remember just how quickly the Agriculture Department jumped into the Hudson Foods fiasco. Secretary Dan Glickman boasted that he was sending a "SWAT team" to Arkansas to investigate the E. coli contamination. I'm still trying to figure out why the Agriculture Department has a SWAT team and exactly what it does.

While Tyson seized the opportunity afforded by the Hudson problem to make a great business deal, the U.S. government seized the opportunity to grab more power.

Glickman is proposing legislation that would broadly strengthen his department's authority over companies found to have produced tainted meat and poultry. Under the bill, now before Congress, the Agriculture Department would be allowed to order a recall of meat, impose fines of up to $100,000 a day and make it easier to withdraw federal inspectors from plants thereby closing them down.

A companion bill, giving the Food and Drug Administration the same powers over the rest of the American food supply, is expected to be introduced shortly.

It's interesting to note that the Agriculture Department's blitz against unsanitary slaughterhouse practices scrupulously bypassed chicken producers like Tyson. The Clinton administration has actually opposed tougher enforcement standards by individual states on poultry products. Espy, in fact, told his staff to lay off the poultry producers.

I can only hope Independent Counsel Donald Smaltz, responsible for the Espy indictment, is watching this matter very carefully. A full and thorough investigation of the events surrounding the E. coli contamination, the federal government's response and the subsequent purchase of Hudson Foods by Tyson is warranted.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Who wins in China's chicken war?
Posted: December 31, 1997
1:00 a.m. Eastern


I should tell you, I was warned not to write this column.

The last time I suggested there was something fishy about the U.S. poultry business, I heard from a top executive at Tyson Foods. I didn't know what I was talking about, I was told. Contrary to what I had suggested, Clinton's old Arkansas pals and benefactors haven't been given the time of day from their man since he became president, a Tyson official said. In fact, I was told, the company had actually been squeezed hard by federal regulators and the independent counsel investigating its role in Department of Agriculture corruption. There was simply no truth to the notion that Tyson Foods has benefited in any way from Bill Clinton's ascension to power. In fact, he said, "It's the worst thing that ever happened to us."

I put all that on the record just in case anything should happen to me. If I should suddenly come down with the mysterious "bird flu" virus or contract a fatal case of salmonella poisoning or choke on a chicken McNugget, maybe someone will ask some tough questions, demand an autopsy and prevent my remains from being cremated.

Not that I'm making any accusations, mind you. I am not weaving another conspiracy tale here. All I'm doing is connecting some dots -- pointing out a few coincidences. Maybe that's all they are -- coincidences. It just seems like there have been too many in the last five years.

OK, here it is. Without further ado, let me review some facts.

A few months ago, you may remember, Hudson Foods was hit with an e coli bacteria scandal. The federal government regulators pounced on the company -- even sending in a so-called "SWAT team" to shut down operations. Within hours, the company's value plummeted. Within weeks, Hudson Foods had been purchased by its major rival, Tyson Foods, owned by Don Tyson, friend of the president and a long-time financial supporter of his political campaigns.

Tyson Foods had tried to buy Hudson Foods several times in previous years, but the offers were spurned. Only after the smaller company was brought to its knees, at least in part, through a public health scare and some government brute force was Tyson able to make a deal Hudson couldn't refuse. Coincidence? Maybe. Or was it a quid pro quo? Just asking.

Let's also recall that several years earlier, Tyson's general counsel, James Blair, set up a sweetheart deal for Hillary Clinton to get into the cattle futures business. She parlayed a $1,000 investment into nearly $100,000 in a year. Good luck? Probably. I'm sure the Clintons didn't feel indebted to Tyson for the favor any more than they did for all the campaign cash he threw at them over the years.

Now for some recent developments: Tyson Foods just copped a plea and agreed to cooperate with Independent Counsel Donald Smaltz's investigation of former Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy. The company will pay a $6 million fine ("chicken feed," one might say, to the multi-billion-dollar enterprise) for attempting to bribe a Cabinet member.

Coincidentally, the very same day, Hong Kong officials were busy slaughtering every single chicken in the region. Some people in Hong Kong are wondering why such a drastic government action was ordered when only a dozen or so human victims of the deadly "bird flu" virus carried by chickens have been diagnosed. Maybe it's silly, but whenever I see government reacting so quickly and with such overwhelming force, I wonder why. Who's benefiting?

Would you believe a major beneficiary of this disaster -- this public health scare -- could well be, once again, Tyson Foods?

Now I'm sure what I'm about to tell you is just another coincidence -- just the luck of the draw. But let's lay our eggs on the table. Are you sitting down "X-Files" fans? Tyson Foods has struck a major deal with China to explore the feasibility of developing as many as 10 poultry complexes throughout the country.

That's right. I'm not kidding. On April 30, Tyson Foods, the world's largest fully integrated producer, processor and marketer of chicken, announced it had entered into an agreement with Kerry Holdings Limited, the Hong Kong-based unit of the multinational conglomerate, the Kuok Group, to expand its operations bigtime in the People's Republic of China.

What fortuitous timing! Now that every private chicken developer in the area has been wiped out by a Chinese government blitzkrieg, Tyson is poised to take over the South China poultry market. Its major push is expected to come in early 1998. Now, remember, Tyson's deal is with the very same Chinese government that apparently pumped massive amounts of illegal cash into Clinton's 1996 presidential campaign. What's that saying about "birds of a feather"?

I know, I know. I'm just the suspicious type. Perhaps, I am too cynical. But coincidences like this make me nervous.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
The really sorry thing about all this is that it seems the Bush administration has taken up where Bill Clinton left off (GIPSA is much worse under Bush than the last administration). Republican oversight committee heads are allowing this to continue with the their party. The rest of the party doesn't seem to be hard core republican enough to take on any of these issues with the administration within their oversight responsibilities and power. They all talk a good talk but they sure don't walk the walk. It seems they all have a really bad case of potomac fever.
 

agman

Well-known member
Mike said:
Investigation of Tyson deal needed
Posted: September 12, 1997
1:00 a.m. Eastern


Am I the only one who is struck with the idea that there is something very suspicious about the recent purchase of Hudson Foods by bigger rival Tyson Foods?

Hudson is the Arkansas food company shut down by the Agriculture Department for selling beef tainted with the deadly E. coli bacteria. Tyson is another Arkansas-based company and the nation's largest poultry producer. It is owned by Don Tyson, long-time friend and political contributor to Bill Clinton and a man investigated as a drug smuggler by state and federal law enforcement agencies. Because of the shutdown of Hudson, Tyson was able to buy the company at a bargain price of $642 million.

Armed with just those facts, this deal, which still needs to be approved by federal regulatory authorities, should raise eyebrows from coast to coast.

For starters, how did that E. coli find its way into Hudson meat? Was it carelessness, negligence or sabotage? Was this transaction being negotiated before the recall of 25 million pounds of hamburger meat or only after? Is it simply a remarkable coincidence that federal government actions benefited so directly one of Clinton's biggest supporters?

Hudson and Tyson have been long-time competitors. The much-smaller Hudson, like Tyson, specialized in poultry before branching out into the beef business only two years ago. James Hudson founded the business in 1972 and bought out poultry-processing operations in Arkansas and Missouri from Ralston Purina. Tyson reportedly had tried to buy Hudson several times in the past, but, until his E. coli problem arose, his offers were spurned.

Tyson was a key figure in the investigation of former Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy, who was indicted on federal charges two weeks ago. He also was a major supporter of Clinton's bid for the presidency in 1992, loaning the campaign millions at a time when it was faltering.

Three years ago, we found out that Tyson's general counsel, James Blair set up a sweetheart deal for Hillary Clinton to get into the cattle futures business. She parlayed a $1,000 investment into nearly $100,000 in a year.

Joseph Henrickson, a former pilot for Tyson, has testified that he flew cash payments from the company to Clinton while he served as governor of Arkansas. Memoranda that circulated in the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Arkansas State Police show that Tyson was under suspicion of drug dealing from the early 1970s until the late 1980s. A file dated March 25, 1976, states that Tyson "is an extremely wealthy man with much political influence and seems to be involved in almost every kind of shady operation, especially narcotics." The DEA also had a file on Tyson. He was never prosecuted for any drug offense.

Let's also remember just how quickly the Agriculture Department jumped into the Hudson Foods fiasco. Secretary Dan Glickman boasted that he was sending a "SWAT team" to Arkansas to investigate the E. coli contamination. I'm still trying to figure out why the Agriculture Department has a SWAT team and exactly what it does.

While Tyson seized the opportunity afforded by the Hudson problem to make a great business deal, the U.S. government seized the opportunity to grab more power.

Glickman is proposing legislation that would broadly strengthen his department's authority over companies found to have produced tainted meat and poultry. Under the bill, now before Congress, the Agriculture Department would be allowed to order a recall of meat, impose fines of up to $100,000 a day and make it easier to withdraw federal inspectors from plants thereby closing them down.

A companion bill, giving the Food and Drug Administration the same powers over the rest of the American food supply, is expected to be introduced shortly.

It's interesting to note that the Agriculture Department's blitz against unsanitary slaughterhouse practices scrupulously bypassed chicken producers like Tyson. The Clinton administration has actually opposed tougher enforcement standards by individual states on poultry products. Espy, in fact, told his staff to lay off the poultry producers.

I can only hope Independent Counsel Donald Smaltz, responsible for the Espy indictment, is watching this matter very carefully. A full and thorough investigation of the events surrounding the E. coli contamination, the federal government's response and the subsequent purchase of Hudson Foods by Tyson is warranted.

Mike, why do you keep dragging out old outdated articles that have been posted before? Have you nothing better to do than try to dig up trash? Allegations are a dime a dozen in the blamers world. Have you relegated yourself to that level?

I noted with interest that Tyson recieved a national award for water quality and conservatin at one of their plants recently. I guess anything good just gets dismissed in your haste to point fingers. Your continued willingness to constantly dig up trash says alot more about you than it does about Tyson or any other company.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Agman:I noted with interest that Tyson recieved a national award for water quality and conservatin at one of their plants recently. I guess anything good just gets dismissed in your haste to point fingers. Your continued willingness to constantly dig up trash says alot more about you than it does about Tyson or any other company.

Does that recent award have anything to do with the lawsuit filed against them in OKLA where they have trashed the rivers?

Your uninhibited defense of these scoundrels tells me which side of the fence you stand on too. And probably who butters your bread.

Feel free to post their "National Award" agman, it's probably one of few.

Knock yourself out!
 

agman

Well-known member
Mike said:
Agman:I noted with interest that Tyson recieved a national award for water quality and conservatin at one of their plants recently. I guess anything good just gets dismissed in your haste to point fingers. Your continued willingness to constantly dig up trash says alot more about you than it does about Tyson or any other company.

Does that recent award have anything to do with the lawsuit filed against them in OKLA where they have trashed the rivers?

Your uninhibited defense of these scoundrels tells me which side of the fence you stand on too. And probably who butters your bread.

Feel free to post their "National Award" agman, it's probably one of few.

Knock yourself out!

My defense is not uninhibited as you say. Accusations made a decade ago are your forte. Just look at your posts. If they are guilty I say put it to them. But accusations are not the equivalent of "proven guilt". The only reason I say anything in their defense is to limit the misinformation and outright lies from people such as your self. I would do the same for other companies large or small and certainly for indivduals.

Have they been proven of wrong doing in the Oklahoma/Arkansas case? Yes or no will suffice. Please post the answer.

If you would not always have your nose in the trash dumpster you would see the numerous awards they do receive. Remember, unlike you, they have over 130,00 employees. What one individual may elect to do versus what is corporate policy can be vastly different at times.
 

mrj

Well-known member
Mike said:
If you would not always have your nose in the trash dumpster

Ha Ha That's where you have to go to find the trash! :lol: :lol:


Mike, do you live off your cattle business, or do you have a side job as a paid anti-large business activist? Some things you say make it seem improbably that you are truly dependent upon/suppostive of agriculture.

MRJ
 

Mike

Well-known member
MRJ said:
Mike said:
If you would not always have your nose in the trash dumpster

Ha Ha That's where you have to go to find the trash! :lol: :lol:


Mike, do you live off your cattle business, or do you have a side job as a paid anti-large business activist? Some things you say make it seem improbably that you are truly dependent upon/suppostive of agriculture.

MRJ

If I could get a job punching "Corporate America" in the nose every chance I could I would sell every cow I have and take it in a heartbeat.

Example:
I cannot believe that AT&T is gonna be allowed to purchase Bellsouth back after Reagan did such a good job of busting them up, thereby creating competition in telephone rates/long distance calling.

Maxine, today is as bad as it was in the earlier part of the century when my hero Teddy Roosevelt made the playing field level once more.

History is repeating itself.
 

mrj

Well-known member
Mike said:
MRJ said:
Mike said:
Ha Ha That's where you have to go to find the trash! :lol: :lol:


Mike, do you live off your cattle business, or do you have a side job as a paid anti-large business activist? Some things you say make it seem improbably that you are truly dependent upon/suppostive of agriculture.

MRJ

If I could get a job punching "Corporate America" in the nose every chance I could I would sell every cow I have and take it in a heartbeat.

Example:
I cannot believe that AT&T is gonna be allowed to purchase Bellsouth back after Reagan did such a good job of busting them up, thereby creating competition in telephone rates/long distance calling.

Maxine, today is as bad as it was in the earlier part of the century when my hero Teddy Roosevelt made the playing field level once more.

History is repeating itself.


I can't buy into such conspiracism. Who do you think owns those corporations? There are millions of "little people" (much as I hate that term, is is often used as a descriptive of lower income middle class Americans) who can have ownership in moneymaking enterprises through investment which they might not be able to do on their own. And that is only ONE reason I do not see corporations as inherently evil. There are so many hoops, rules, and regulation they must adhere to it is amazing some do so well. Claims they are trying to "break" and/or cheat all farmers, ranchers, and consumers in the USA are ludicrous! Get a life!

MRJ

MRJ
 

Econ101

Well-known member
MRJ said:
Mike said:
MRJ said:
Mike, do you live off your cattle business, or do you have a side job as a paid anti-large business activist? Some things you say make it seem improbably that you are truly dependent upon/suppostive of agriculture.

MRJ

If I could get a job punching "Corporate America" in the nose every chance I could I would sell every cow I have and take it in a heartbeat.

Example:
I cannot believe that AT&T is gonna be allowed to purchase Bellsouth back after Reagan did such a good job of busting them up, thereby creating competition in telephone rates/long distance calling.

Maxine, today is as bad as it was in the earlier part of the century when my hero Teddy Roosevelt made the playing field level once more.

History is repeating itself.


I can't buy into such conspiracism. Who do you think owns those corporations? There are millions of "little people" (much as I hate that term, is is often used as a descriptive of lower income middle class Americans) who can have ownership in moneymaking enterprises through investment which they might not be able to do on their own. And that is only ONE reason I do not see corporations as inherently evil. There are so many hoops, rules, and regulation they must adhere to it is amazing some do so well. Claims they are trying to "break" and/or cheat all farmers, ranchers, and consumers in the USA are ludicrous! Get a life!

MRJ

MRJ

MRJ, corporations are not inherently evil. No one but you even brings up that idea. Corporations are business groups that will do what they can to make money. Read the Wall Street Journal. It is full of stories about corporations that are not following the law and getting away with some advantage.

In today's WSJ, for instance, on the front page, rt. hand column, there is an article about "Boeing to Settle Federal Probes for $615 million". Under your preconcieved notion of corporations that totally ignores facts
Boeing is not guilty and the Feds are just shaking them down.

The fact is that Boeing is paying a penalty because it broke the law. The article also says that Boeing is getting off "easy" by not being criminally prosecuted.

"Current and former federal investigators describe the tentative stettlement as the largest financial penalty ever imposed on a military contractor for weapons program improprieties. Even so, the outcome is an important victory for Bioeing and Jim McNerney, its chairman, president, and chief executive.

As part of the settlement, according to people familiar wth the details, the government will forgow criminal charges against Boeing, despite a string of procurement violations and alleged corruption that has tarnished the company's reputation and prompted it to overhaul its corporate culture."

The article goes on to say that Boeing illegally recruited a senior Air Force procurement official while she still had authority over billions of dollars in other Boeing contracts......

MRJ, stories like this are coming out about all the time about companies in our country that are committing crimes and are not paying the full cost of penalties afforded under the law. Just because MRJ in podunk S. Dakota town doesn't know about them because she is insulated doesn't mean they are not happening. You just live a sheltered life and want to give corporations a bias before hearing the evidence. These companies are not getting in trouble because they are "big corporations", they are getting in trouble because they are committing real crimes, whether you want to believe it or not.

Money penalties do not deter these guys. They can just get the common stockholder to pay the money as you say. They still get their salaries, bonuses, and protection under the corporate veil that stockholder money buys. They continue to benefit from the naivite' that people like you exude. All to the detriment of pension funds and other stockholders, their competitors and our economy. Our political/governmental/legal/regulatory/enforcement system has the corporate bias already.

I don't think the average joe that robs a gas station gets the benefit of corporate attorneys to pull their butt out of the penalties the law affords. Look in your own town and tell me if that is happening.

MRJ, the next time you look up at an airplane, remember what I have told you here. The world is a lot bigger than the little part you live in.
 

agman

Well-known member
Mike said:
MRJ said:
Mike said:
Ha Ha That's where you have to go to find the trash! :lol: :lol:


Mike, do you live off your cattle business, or do you have a side job as a paid anti-large business activist? Some things you say make it seem improbably that you are truly dependent upon/suppostive of agriculture.

MRJ

If I could get a job punching "Corporate America" in the nose every chance I could I would sell every cow I have and take it in a heartbeat.

Example:
I cannot believe that AT&T is gonna be allowed to purchase Bellsouth back after Reagan did such a good job of busting them up, thereby creating competition in telephone rates/long distance calling.

Maxine, today is as bad as it was in the earlier part of the century when my hero Teddy Roosevelt made the playing field level once more.

History is repeating itself.

It looks like you and Econ may have gone to the same school. You should both ask for a refund. Accusations are a dime a dozen and are born out of ignorance of fact. History truly is repeating itself as you say.

What is your beef with corporate America? Did one of them make it too tough for you to compete?
 

Mike

Well-known member
agman said:
Mike said:
MRJ said:
Mike, do you live off your cattle business, or do you have a side job as a paid anti-large business activist? Some things you say make it seem improbably that you are truly dependent upon/suppostive of agriculture.

MRJ

If I could get a job punching "Corporate America" in the nose every chance I could I would sell every cow I have and take it in a heartbeat.

Example:
I cannot believe that AT&T is gonna be allowed to purchase Bellsouth back after Reagan did such a good job of busting them up, thereby creating competition in telephone rates/long distance calling.

Maxine, today is as bad as it was in the earlier part of the century when my hero Teddy Roosevelt made the playing field level once more.

History is repeating itself.

It looks like you and Econ may have gone to the same school. You should both ask for a refund. Accusations are a dime a dozen and are born out of ignorance of fact. History truly is repeating itself as you say.

What is your beef with corporate America? Did one of them make it too tough for you to compete?

Hardly. The goverment is the best at that game.

If you are blind enough to believe that the "Food" multinationals aren't setting policy nowdays, you are past due a refund on your education also.

The accusations on the internet and newspapers are subject to slander and libel suits also. Are they happening? :lol: :lol:
 

Econ101

Well-known member
agman said:
Mike said:
MRJ said:
Mike, do you live off your cattle business, or do you have a side job as a paid anti-large business activist? Some things you say make it seem improbably that you are truly dependent upon/suppostive of agriculture.

MRJ

If I could get a job punching "Corporate America" in the nose every chance I could I would sell every cow I have and take it in a heartbeat.

Example:
I cannot believe that AT&T is gonna be allowed to purchase Bellsouth back after Reagan did such a good job of busting them up, thereby creating competition in telephone rates/long distance calling.

Maxine, today is as bad as it was in the earlier part of the century when my hero Teddy Roosevelt made the playing field level once more.

History is repeating itself.

It looks like you and Econ may have gone to the same school. You should both ask for a refund. Accusations are a dime a dozen and are born out of ignorance of fact. History truly is repeating itself as you say.

What is your beef with corporate America? Did one of them make it too tough for you to compete?

Agman, economics is the application of mathematical and inductive reasoning to the choices we make every day. It is always about rewards and consequences in a game with other (hopefully) participants.

I took economics to learn a little more about why we do what we do and to learn a few more of the rules of brute financial/ecomic force and the play of those forces in a market economy.

I argued with my initial professors on the points they made and one of my first jobs in the field was with one of the professors I argued with.

I don't tend to lend my thinking over to someone else whether it be religion, economics, or some other field of interest. Every bit of information is viewed in light of the possible interests of the one who is presenting the information. In short, I don't turn my thinking over like MRJ does.

I don't know if Mike ever took economics, but it sure does seem he has his thinking cap on which puts him way ahead of someone like MRJ. I would rather have one of him thinking and challenging me than a hundred MRJs who mindlessly throw the pom poms up and rely on the "expert" opinion of others they agree with than to take the time to think.

My "beef" isn't with corporate america. It is with specific actions (many by corporate entities) that remain uncorrected in our country because of influence of money in politics. In short, it is with the failure of our government to be competent and strong enough to enforce the necessary rules of economics and laws that allow us to maximize our resources and to provide for justice to its citizens. It is the tearing down of the free market system for a system of the good old boys.

I am sorry you are trapped in it.
 

mrj

Well-known member
Econ101 said:
MRJ said:
Mike said:
If I could get a job punching "Corporate America" in the nose every chance I could I would sell every cow I have and take it in a heartbeat.

Example:
I cannot believe that AT&T is gonna be allowed to purchase Bellsouth back after Reagan did such a good job of busting them up, thereby creating competition in telephone rates/long distance calling.

Maxine, today is as bad as it was in the earlier part of the century when my hero Teddy Roosevelt made the playing field level once more.

History is repeating itself.


I can't buy into such conspiracism. Who do you think owns those corporations? There are millions of "little people" (much as I hate that term, is is often used as a descriptive of lower income middle class Americans) who can have ownership in moneymaking enterprises through investment which they might not be able to do on their own. And that is only ONE reason I do not see corporations as inherently evil. There are so many hoops, rules, and regulation they must adhere to it is amazing some do so well. Claims they are trying to "break" and/or cheat all farmers, ranchers, and consumers in the USA are ludicrous! Get a life!

MRJ

MRJ

MRJ, corporations are not inherently evil. No one but you even brings up that idea. Corporations are business groups that will do what they can to make money. Read the Wall Street Journal. It is full of stories about corporations that are not following the law and getting away with some advantage.

In today's WSJ, for instance, on the front page, rt. hand column, there is an article about "Boeing to Settle Federal Probes for $615 million". Under your preconcieved notion of corporations that totally ignores facts
Boeing is not guilty and the Feds are just shaking them down.

The fact is that Boeing is paying a penalty because it broke the law. The article also says that Boeing is getting off "easy" by not being criminally prosecuted.

"Current and former federal investigators describe the tentative stettlement as the largest financial penalty ever imposed on a military contractor for weapons program improprieties. Even so, the outcome is an important victory for Bioeing and Jim McNerney, its chairman, president, and chief executive.

As part of the settlement, according to people familiar wth the details, the government will forgow criminal charges against Boeing, despite a string of procurement violations and alleged corruption that has tarnished the company's reputation and prompted it to overhaul its corporate culture."

The article goes on to say that Boeing illegally recruited a senior Air Force procurement official while she still had authority over billions of dollars in other Boeing contracts......

MRJ, stories like this are coming out about all the time about companies in our country that are committing crimes and are not paying the full cost of penalties afforded under the law. Just because MRJ in podunk S. Dakota town doesn't know about them because she is insulated doesn't mean they are not happening. You just live a sheltered life and want to give corporations a bias before hearing the evidence. These companies are not getting in trouble because they are "big corporations", they are getting in trouble because they are committing real crimes, whether you want to believe it or not.

Money penalties do not deter these guys. They can just get the common stockholder to pay the money as you say. They still get their salaries, bonuses, and protection under the corporate veil that stockholder money buys. They continue to benefit from the naivite' that people like you exude. All to the detriment of pension funds and other stockholders, their competitors and our economy. Our political/governmental/legal/regulatory/enforcement system has the corporate bias already.

I don't think the average joe that robs a gas station gets the benefit of corporate attorneys to pull their butt out of the penalties the law affords. Look in your own town and tell me if that is happening.

MRJ, the next time you look up at an airplane, remember what I have told you here. The world is a lot bigger than the little part you live in.


Poor small minded Econ......can't come up with substance to challenge my premise that "corporate evildoing" is not so rampant as you claim.......so you get out your sadly cloudy crystal ball again to tell the world what I'm thinking, the kind of life I live, and the "insulated" world in which I reside!

I've never said corporations do NO wrong, just as you rarely say they do ANY right.

You seem totally unaware that there are individuals, groups, and law offices in abundance, all filing charges, lawsuits, and claims against 'big business' in the USA. This is in addition to legitimate action against apparent real criminal activity. Never have I indicated that I do not support legal action against real crimes as well as punishment of those found guilty.

However, far too many people are ready, willing, and funded to make claims and charges which amount to nothing more than legalistic 'ankle biting' and can serve no purpose other than harming legally conducted business.

Many people realize that big businesses sometimes find it less expensive to not fight such charges. I don't agree, yet I understand. The fact is that defending a business against such claims and charges can cripple it financially if justice is not served, or maybe even when it is served.

Your usual gibberish with claims of what you think you know about my personal life are silly. Your assertion that I, or anyone else, for that matter, who lives in a "small podunk SD town doesn't know about them because she is insulated..." ignores that fact that, by golly gee, we do have TV, even satelite service. We do get news and gossip from round the world. We do talk to people from distant, BIG places. Some of those people even own, manage, or work for BIG businesses. We may not be so isolated as some who live and work in your mega-cities and don't realize there is life beyond their own 'end all-be all' city!. Actually, maybe it is SOME city types who are the "insulated" ones living a "sheltered, biased" life blinded by "naivete".

BTW, I've actually traveled outside SD a couple of times in my life!!!!


MRJ
 

Econ101

Well-known member
BTW, I've actually traveled outside SD a couple of times in my life!!!!


MRJ


Funny, MRJ.

The only one bringing up the idea that they didn't think "big corporations are evil" was you. It was not anyone else. You were just using it as an argument to let corporations get off with things regular people can not.

Ken Lay has 4 attorneys in Houston with him in court. How many did the last "little" criminal in your town have?

As for your personal life, I don't know anything about it. I do see the type of comments you post on this forum, however, and they are small minded.
 

agman

Well-known member
Econ101 said:
BTW, I've actually traveled outside SD a couple of times in my life!!!!


MRJ


Funny, MRJ.

The only one bringing up the idea that they didn't think "big corporations are evil" was you. It was not anyone else. You were just using it as an argument to let corporations get off with things regular people can not.

Ken Lay has 4 attorneys in Houston with him in court. How many did the last "little" criminal in your town have?

As for your personal life, I don't know anything about it. I do see the type of comments you post on this forum, however, and they are small minded.

Interesting question you pose to MRJ; what major corporate center is located where MRJ resides? Talk about being small minded and uninformed!! Have you looked in the mirror lately.

They probably don't have four attorneys in the whole town where MRJ resides and that is a good thing. In fact that would be a great thing. It is unfortunate you are not a real attorney, you could move their and set up shop. I am certain MRJ would introduce you to ABDUL at the local quick-shop. You could supplement your income and feel right at home on the graveyard shift-no change in your lifestyle at all. The one inconvenience is that Wal-Mart might be a bit more of a drive for you when you take your annual trek to quiz the welcome lady about the beef department and buy those foreign made tennies you complain about. Don't tell that to ABDUL as he is a foreigner; you might offend him as he, being the boss, could fire you. Hurry, opportunity like that does not come knocking at your door everyday. If you fail to succeed you will only have yourself to blame. That would be a shift in your thinking would it not?
 

Econ101

Well-known member
agman said:
Econ101 said:
BTW, I've actually traveled outside SD a couple of times in my life!!!!


MRJ


Funny, MRJ.

The only one bringing up the idea that they didn't think "big corporations are evil" was you. It was not anyone else. You were just using it as an argument to let corporations get off with things regular people can not.

Ken Lay has 4 attorneys in Houston with him in court. How many did the last "little" criminal in your town have?

As for your personal life, I don't know anything about it. I do see the type of comments you post on this forum, however, and they are small minded.

Interesting question you pose to MRJ; what major corporate center is located where MRJ resides? Talk about being small minded and uninformed!! Have you looked in the mirror lately.

They probably don't have four attorneys in the whole town where MRJ resides and that is a good thing. In fact that would be a great thing. It is unfortunate you are not a real attorney, you could move their and set up shop. I am certain MRJ would introduce you to ABDUL at the local quick-shop. You could supplement your income and feel right at home on the graveyard shift-no change in your lifestyle at all. The one inconvenience is that Wal-Mart might be a bit more of a drive for you when you take your annual trek to quiz the welcome lady about the beef department and buy those foreign made tennies you complain about. Don't tell that to ABDUL as he is a foreigner; you might offend him as he, being the boss, could fire you. Hurry, opportunity like that does not come knocking at your door everyday. If you fail to succeed you will only have yourself to blame. That would be a shift in your thinking would it not?

Agman, did you watch Frontline? UAL (United Airlines) was featured. In it Frontline pretty much documented our previous discussion. They clearly explained the ERISA (employee retirement plan) loopholes that allowed UAL not to fund their retirement plan as the ERISA law mandated. In bankruptcy UAL paid around $400 million for their restructuring, shafted all their employees, and basically turned over their pension liabilties to the federal government. The title of the program was "The End of Retirement". The polticians see this loophole and are allowing the corporate lawyers to work their magic for investors of corporations and management of those corporations, allowing investors to skim off the top before paying all the bills, and eventually leaving the unfunded pension liabilities to the federal govt. (taxpayers).

For someone as smart as you are, I don't know why you spit out the rubbish you spit out on this site in your attempt to take up for the current poltical corruption/ incompetence/ and corporations that are seemingly immune to any real enforcement of laws. If you weren't so busy ringing up the cash register for some of these corporations you would be the same place the UAL employees are.

The program went on to talk about the shifting of the retirement programs in America from the employers to employees (sounds like GW's SS plan) and how it has basically robbed hard working men and women of their retiement. The next time you see an older person at Walmart or a fast food resturaunt, see the results of your short sighted views.

MRJ's abject attitude of "I don't believe in anything bad that doesn't affect me directly" and people like you whose overt support to our current fraudulent system is very concerning to me. There will always be crooks in the world, but your tacit support of them in our corporate, political and legal system will be the death of our country. I feel ashamed that we are sending good young men and women into harms way to protect a system so corrrupt with free riders like you and MRJ being so apathetic.

Get a clue, Agman. MRJ has small town thinking and you support the big time fraud. What a team.



:shock: :roll:

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety - Ben Franklin
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Conman,

Do you honestly believe you can make allegation after allegation after allegation about corruption in large corporations and political favors without ever having to provide an example????

All you have is "CHEAP TALK"! That's it! All foam and never any beer.


~SH~
 
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