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U.S. Soldiers Seeking Refuge In Canada

nonothing

Well-known member
(CBS) The Pentagon says more than 5,500 servicemen have deserted since the war started in Iraq.

60 Minutes Wednesday found several of these deserters who left the Army or Marine Corps rather than go to Iraq. Like a generation of deserters before them, they fled to Canada.

What do these men, who have violated orders and oaths, have to say for themselves? They told Correspondent Scott Pelley that conscience, not cowardice, made them American deserters.
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"I was a warrior. You know? I always have been. I’ve always felt that way -- that if there are people who can’t defend themselves, it’s my responsibility to do that," says Pfc. Dan Felushko, 24.

It was Felushko's responsibility to ship out with the Marines to Kuwait in Jan. 2003 to prepare for the invasion of Iraq. Instead, he slipped out of Camp Pendleton, Calif., and deployed himself to Canada.

"I didn’t want, you know, 'Died deluded in Iraq' over my gravestone," says Felushko. "If I'd gone, personally, because of the things that I believed, it would have felt wrong. Because I saw it as wrong, if I died there or killed somebody there, that would have been more wrong."

He told Pelley it wasn't fighting that bothered him. In fact, he says he started basic training just weeks after al Qaeda attacked New York and Washington –- and he was prepared to get even for Sept. 11 in Afghanistan.

But Felushko says he didn't see a connection between the attack on America and Saddam Hussein.

"(What) it basically comes down to, is it my right to choose between what I think is right and what I think is wrong?" asks Felushko. "And nobody should make me sign away my ability to choose between right and wrong."

But Felushko had signed a contract to be with the U.S. Marine Corps. "It's a devil's contract if you look at it that way," he says.

How does he feel about being in Toronto while other Marines are dying in Fallujah, Najaf and Ramadi?

"It makes me struggle with doubt, you know, about my decision," says Felushko.

What does he say to the families of the American troops who have died in Iraq?

"I honor their dead. Maybe they think that my presence dishonors their dead. But they made a choice the same as I made a choice," says Felushko. "My big problem is that, if they made that choice for anything other than they believed in it, then that's wrong. Right? And the government has to be held responsible for those deaths, because they didn’t give them an option."
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Felushko’s father is Canadian, so he has dual citizenship, and he can legally stay in Canada. But it’s not that easy for other American deserters.

Canadian law has changed since the Vietnam era. Back then, an estimated 55,000 Americans deserted to Canada or dodged the draft. And in those days, Canada simply welcomed them.

But today’s American deserters, such as Brandon Hughey, will need to convince a Canadian immigration board that they are refugees.

Hughey volunteered for the Army to get money for college. He graduated from high school in San Angelo, Texas, just two months after the president declared war in Iraq.

What did he think about the case for going to war? "I felt it was necessary if they did have these weapons, and they could end up in our cities and threaten our safety," says Hughey. "I was supportive. At first, I didn't think to question it."

He says at first, he was willing to die "to make America safe." And while Hughey was in basic training, he didn't get much news. But when he left basic training, he started following the latest information from Iraq.

"I found out, basically, that they found no weapons of mass destruction. They were beginning to come out and say it's not likely that we will find any -- and the claim that they made about ties to al Qaeda was coming up short, to say the least," says Hughey. "It made me angry, because I felt our lives were being thrown away as soldiers, basically."

When Hughey got orders for Iraq, he searched the Internet and found Vietnam era war resisters willing to show him the way north. In fact, they were willing to drive him there, and a Canadian television news camera went along.

Hughey had an invitation to stay with a Quaker couple that helped Americans avoid the draft during Vietnam. From Fort Hood, Texas, to St. Catherine's in Ontario, Canada, Hughey crossed the border, duty free.

Pelley read letters about Hughey's desertion that were sent to the editor of a San Antonio newspaper.

"It makes me sad to know that there's that much hate in the country," says Hughey. "Before I joined the Army, I would have thought the same way. Anyone who said no to a war, I would have thought them a traitor and a coward. So, in that essence, I'm thankful for this experience, because it has opened my eyes and it has taught me not to take things on the surface."

However, he adds: "I have to say that my image of my country always being the good guy, and always fighting for just causes, has been shattered."

Hughey, and other deserters, will be represented before the Canadian Immigration and Refugee Board by Toronto lawyer Jeffry House.

His clients will have to prove that, if they are returned to the United States, they wouldn't just be prosecuted for what they did -– they would be also be persecuted. How will House make that claim?

"People should have a right to say, 'I'm not fighting in that war. That's an illegal war. There's illegal stuff going on the ground. I'm not going,'" says House. "And anyone who says soldiers should go to jail if they don't fight in an illegal war is persecuting them."

And it’s something House has experience with. In 1969, he graduated from the University of Wisconsin, got drafted, and spent the rest of his life in Canada.

House's legal strategy will focus on his contention that President Bush is not complying with international law. But how will he defend volunteers who signed a contract?

"The United States is supposed to comply with treaty obligations like the U.N. charter, but they don’t," says House. "When the president isn’t complying with the Geneva Accords or with the U.N. charter, are we saying, 'Only the soldier who signed up when he was 17 -- that guy has to strictly comply with contract? The president, he doesn’t have to?' I don’t think so. I don’t think that is fair."
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The first deserter to face the Canadian refugee board is likely to be Spc. Jeremy Hinzman of Rapid City, S.D. He joined the military in Jan. 2001, and was a paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne.

He wanted a career in the military, but over time, he decided he couldn’t take a life. "I was walking to chow hall with my unit, and we were yelling, 'Train to kill, kill we will,' over and over again," recalls Hinzman. "I kind of snuck a peek around me and saw all my colleagues getting red in the face and hoarse yelling -- and at that point a light went off in my head and I said, 'You know, I made the wrong career decision.'"

But Hinzman said he didn’t want to get out of the Army: "I had signed a contract for four years. I was totally willing to fulfill it. Just not in combat arms jobs."

While at Fort Bragg, Hinzman says he filled out the forms for conscientious objector status, which would let him stay in the Army in a non-combat job.

While he waited for a decision, he went to Afghanistan and worked in a kitchen. But later, the Army told him he didn’t qualify as a conscientious objector, and he was ordered to fight in Iraq.

Hinzman decided to take his family to Canada, where he’s been living off savings accumulated while he was in the military.

Wasn't he supposed to follow orders? "I was told in basic training that, if I'm given an illegal or immoral order, it is my duty to disobey it," says Hinzman. "And I feel that invading and occupying Iraq is an illegal and immoral thing to do."

"But you can't have an Army of free-thinkers," says Pelley. "You wouldn't have an Army."

"No, you wouldn't. I think there are times when militaries or countries act in a collectively wrong way," says Hinzman. "I mean, the obvious example was during World War II. Sure, Saddam Hussein was a really bad guy. I mean, he ranks up there with the bad ones. But was he a threat to the United States?

Still, isn't it worth fighting to free the people of Iraq? "Whether a country lives under freedom or tyranny or whatever else, that's the collective responsibility of the people of that country," says Hinzman.
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Hinzman and the other American deserters have become celebrities of sorts in the Canadian anti-war movement.

Only a few of the reported 5,500 deserters are in Canada, but House says he's getting more calls from nervous soldiers all the time.

Wouldn't the right and honorable thing for deserters to do be to go back to the United States, and turn themselves in to the Army?

"Why would that be honorable?" asks House. "(Deserters signed a contract) to defend the Constitution of the United States, not take part in offensive, pre-emptive wars. I don't think you should be punished for doing the right thing. What benefit is there to being a martyr? I don’t see any."

Hinzman began his hearing before the Canadian Immigration and Refugee board last Monday. But there's no telling when he'll find out if he'll be allowed to stay in Canada -- or be sent back to the United States to face the consequences.

The maximum penalty for deserting in wartime is death. But it's more typical for a soldier to draw a sentence of five years or less for deserting in wartime.
 

Steve

Well-known member
US military now turning its back on deserters
Quick discharge, not prosecution, is usual outcome

By Paul Pringle, Los Angeles Times, 5/27/2003

Nick Thomas is a soldier without pity. He serves flag and country by dealing with the men and women who shucked the same Army uniform he wears. And he can't stand their whining.

''I have no respect for these people,'' said Thomas, 25, his soft face stiffening. ''I hate hearing their sob stories.''

He hears plenty. As a military police investigator based at Fort Irwin in a Mars-colored corner of the Mojave Desert northeast of Barstow, Calif., Thomas is responsible for picking up deserters who get snared in the law enforcement net across Southern California and Nevada. Listening to their tales of woe is distasteful enough in peacetime, Thomas says. When comrades are under fire overseas, he finds the subjects of his mission particularly offensive.

''They train as part of a group, as a family, and then they don't go,'' he said, shaking his head. ''You want to make them cry.''

But he says he does nothing to evoke tears -- no interrogation-room bullying about a court-martial, no threats of a long stretch in the brig.

Officials say today's Army takes a passive, good-riddance approach to its runaways, who account for fewer than 1 percent of enlistees. Prosecutions and prison sentences have become rare. Most of the several thousand deserters who bolt each year aren't actively pursued. Of those who do wind up in custody, more than 90 percent are discharged as quickly as the paperwork can be processed.

''Hunt them down? No way,'' said Thomas, who sat in a wind-hammered bungalow as Humvees lumbered along the dusty roads outside. ''I've never heard of a court-martial'' for a deserter.

The Army has been a volunteer vocation since the end of the Vietnam War-era draft, so commanders have grown increasingly content to cut loose anyone unwilling to fight. A similar attitude prevails in the Marine Corps and Navy, officials say, and it hasn't changed because of the campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq.

''We really don't look for deserters anymore,'' said Mark Raimondi, spokesman for the Army's Criminal Investigation Command. ''If folks don't want to stay around, we don't want them.''

Deserters are generally free to run until local civilian authorities happen to detain them, often for traffic violations, and warrant checks identify them as military fugitives. A large number turn themselves in. Others are given up by parents or spouses.

Sooner or later, most deserters face the music, Pentagon officials say. The tune is typically an administrative discharge on less-than-honorable terms, which can disqualify deserters for federal jobs as well as government-subsidized home loans and tuition grants. That doesn't seem enough to gung-ho types like Thomas. They say deserters, at minimum, should be required to finish their tour, preferably in an undesirable assignment. ''You join the Army to serve your country, and now that it's time to serve, you're going to leave?'' said Peter Cormier, 30, Thomas's supervisor.

Cormier was walking through the provost marshal's station, a cinderblock maze that houses the lockup at Fort Irwin. MPs in camouflage fatigues milled about. The words ''loyalty,'' ''duty,'' and ''respect'' were painted on the walls of a holding cell -- scoldings for a captive audience.

The only prisoner was a young soldier who had been AWOL for two weeks. He surrendered at the front gate and was awaiting transport to Fort Lewis in Washington state, the post he fled. The man, whom MPs would not allow to be interviewed, sat in the cage with his head bowed.

Soldiers are usually classified as deserters when they have been absent without leave for 30 days and show no intention of returning. Last year 3,800 Army soldiers deserted, meaning that the Army's desertion rate was one-sixth of what it was during the Vietnam War, when it totaled 5 percent of the rolls.

A 2002 study by the Army Research Institute found that about 70 percent of deserters left during their first year of duty. They tended to be younger than the average recruit and more likely to come from broken homes. Many had been in trouble with the law before. The majority cited either family problems or a ''failure to adapt'' as the reason they deserted.

This story ran on page A9 of the Boston Globe on 5/27/2003.

looks like your free to keep em if you can stomach them...
 

CattleArmy

Well-known member
I'm glad I was scanning the old posts to see if there was something I had missed. This is an interesting topic. I'm not really sure my opinion on it. The responsible side of me has the idea if you signed up and made a commintment to do something then follow thru is expected. The real side of me thinks if I took the chance of leaving home to return in a pine box I'm not to sure I wouldn't run to Canada too. However, most must realize when signing up for military service even when not in war time there is a chance that one will start and that is part of the job.

Guess we get the illegal Mexicans and Canada gets the illegal deserters. If the illegal deserters get somebody knocked up do they get the benefits (anchors) that illegals here get?
 

Broke Cowboy

Well-known member
CattleArmy said:
I'm glad I was scanning the old posts to see if there was something I had missed. This is an interesting topic. I'm not really sure my opinion on it.

Well, I am a Canuck and I am damned sure certain what my opinion is.

I also am in the military - actually worked for the American gov (U.S. Army) for a while and now work under the Canuck gov. Be that as it may - you can be a cook, a rifleman, a dental assistant, a pilot, a ships bosun, a padre or a welder or man or woman or whatever.

I do not care what the hell you do or what the hell you are - but you wear your uniform with pride and you do as you promised. You obey legal orders - even if you do not like it.

You signed up - so you hold up your end of the bargain and walk out - if you can - or if you want - at the end of your tour of duty and hold your head up high.

I salute those folks - including the ones who stayed on this continent. Fact is - without the folks supporting us at home we could never keep the operations running off shore. And there is a hell of a lot more going on off shore than just Iraq and Afghanistan.

If you signed on the dotted line, you issued the government of your choice a blank cheque that they can draw upon when they chose - right up to and including your life.

You bug out on me - I do not care what flag you signed up under - I do not want you for a neighbour, an employee, a friend or even a frigging bum in a shelter in the nearest city.

You go back and make ammends and I MIGHT forgive you.

Otherwise you are lower than dirt to me.

BC
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Goodpasture said:
jigs said:
when Canada needs these guys to protect them, where will they run??
Canada doesn't seem to need it. Maybe it has to do with not starting stupid, illegal wars..........

Maybe you ought to read your history books and see what JFK did in Vietnam.
 

Goodpasture

Well-known member
aplusmnt said:
At least he took down that Sooner baner it was harder to look at than his comments :lol:
must be tough living so close to OU greatness, knowing you will never see Kansas winning a national championship in your lifetime............



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jigs

Well-known member
I believe Kansas is poised to get a title this year......unless you are going to pull the old NU trick and claim football is the only title there is, because that is all we can compete in.....
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Goodpasture said:
aplusmnt said:
At least he took down that Sooner baner it was harder to look at than his comments :lol:
must be tough living so close to OU greatness, knowing you will never see Kansas winning a national championship in your lifetime............

I am plenty content with living between my two favorite schools Oklahoma STATE and Kansas State.
 

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