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Urine BSE Test Must work

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Mike

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Following is a copy of the paperwork to accompany URINE samples to the
"National Prion Survelliance Center" at Case Western Reserve University.
Obviously, the Urine test that Ron (bse-tester) is announcing has merit.
*************************************************************

http://www.cjdsurveillance.com/urine.htm
 

bse-tester

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Gee Mike, that is some complicated form. If I have a cow named Betty Ann, should I write that name in to please my duaghter or to confuse the pathology lab? Only kidding Mike. We are extremely confident that it will work. I have been provided the forms for application to receive some Scrapie infected urine and will send them off to get some to conduct our validation at CWRU in Cleveland this Fall. Some folks on this board still seem to think that by removing the SRM's from a carcass, renders the entire remaining carcass free of any infectious prions. I do not understand that line of thinking. It is like removing the boils from a plague infested human and then declaring him, or her plague free!! I just want to say that the SRM removal is one way of removing tissue that is known to collect prions in great numbers. However, if the animal is indeed infected with the disease causing agent, the PrPsc, then the entire animal is infected, not just selctive tissue and it is about time that people started to wrap their heads around that fact. Even if the animal is younger than 30 months or older, it matters not. Granted, the risk of a younger than 30 month animal breaking out with BSE is now reduced since the feed ban came into effect, but one must remember that not all feed mills followed the ban and there was no recall - zero - of feed that was stored by ranchers and producers and it was still used until all gone. Some ranchers kept feed for months after the ban and we know that some feed producers here in Canada and in Europe have been busted for not abiding by the ban. Also, let us not forget that incredible stroke of wisdom by the authorities that stated although we are bannig the feed, we are still going to feed it to pigs and chickens and then folk, we will still allow cattle to feed on the remains of pigs and chickens that we render into cattle feed. Talk about a tainted process and a political nightmare that all politicians seem to want to avoid when the question of banning feed on the one hand and then feeding it right back to the cattle by means of another route. Our test will be a terrific "Risk Management Tool." Ron.
 

Mike

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Ron ( the "Fast Buck Artist") :wink: , I don't completely buy in to the SRM removal smokescreen either. I guess a false sense of security is better than none at all. Until it is exposed. The 40,000+ BSE positives born after the feed ban in the UK makes me feel really secure too! :???:

Question : Why urine instead of blood? I take it you're not a doctor but still more versed on the physiological workings of prions than myself. Given that blood would be easier to collect in a live animal than urine, wouldn't it make more sense to go that route, if at all possible? You ever tried getting a urine sample from each of a pen of say, 200-300 calves?
 
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Ron:"...one must remember that not all feed mills followed the ban and there was no recall - zero - of feed that was stored by ranchers and producers and it was still used until all gone. Some ranchers kept feed for months after the ban and we know that some feed producers here in Canada and in Europe have been busted for not abiding by the ban. Also, let us not forget that incredible stroke of wisdom by the authorities that stated although we are bannig the feed, we are still going to feed it to pigs and chickens and then folk, we will still allow cattle to feed on the remains of pigs and chickens that we render into cattle feed. Talk about a tainted process and a political nightmare that all politicians seem to want to avoid when the question of banning feed on the one hand and then feeding it right back to the cattle by means of another route. Our test will be a terrific "Risk Management Tool."

.....and if you act now, we'll throw the Ginzu knife in absolutely free!

CHA CHING!

Where's your proof that BSE exists in cattle under 24 months of age in the U.S. and Canada to justify the costs of your test?

Where's your proof that BSE can be contracted by eating beef?

Sorry, you'll have to do better than your concerns of feed ban compliance.

Besides, how is it going to get into the feed if it's not being found in the cattle?

The USDA has just tested hundreds of thousands of cattle and only found 2 positives IN OLDER CATTLE and you think we need to test cattle younger than 24 months of age?

When can we expect to see cattle shaking and falling down in our pastures to justify this test?

Perhaps you better run to Japan and tell them how foolish they are to back away from testing of younger cattle? They apparently aren't buying your arguments either Ron.


Mike: "I don't completely buy in to the SRM removal smokescreen either."

How can it be a smokescreen when research has proven that a large amount of SRMs have to be consumed in order for humans to contract BSE and the largest amount of these prions collect in the SRMs? Ron even admitted that the greatest concentration is in the SRMs.


~SH~
 

Mike

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SH:"Where's your proof that BSE can be contracted by eating beef?"

Response: Proof enough for science is posted in the "Case Western Reserve" post below. And you might notice they don't include all the "maybe's" and "mights" typical of most scientists.

**************************************************************
SH:"How can it be a smokescreen when research has proven that a large amount of SRMs have to be consumed in order for humans to contract BSE and the largest amount of these prions collect in the SRMs?"

Response:If you will notice carefully, these two statements TOTALLY contradict one another. I thought you might be wiser than to contradict yourself in the very same post. Guess not. :???:

By the way. Could I see the study you mentioned about the "large amounts of SRM's have to be consumed"? Is that an actual study or an estimate? Research is a lot different from estimates you know.

Do prions "collect", as you say, or do they propagate/multiply in nerve tissue/SRM's? Big difference.
 

rkaiser

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Amazing how BSE has made agenda backed scientists of us all.

SH
Where's your proof that BSE exists in cattle under 24 months of age in the U.S. and Canada to justify the costs of your test?

Where's your proof that BSE can be contracted by eating beef?

Sorry, you'll have to do better than your concerns of feed ban compliance.

Besides, how is it going to get into the feed if it's not being found in the cattle?

The USDA has just tested hundreds of thousands of cattle and only found 2 positives IN OLDER CATTLE and you think we need to test cattle younger than 24 months of age?

I agree with SH on these issues but not for the same reasons. I see no reason we would not use BSE testing for marketing purposes and TEST if the customer asks. If Japan applies new rules to accept beef under a certain age, give it to them. If they continue to demand testing for over 20 months, give them that as well.

America does not really need exports for their industry to survive as proven inthe last couple of years. They simply have to find bogus ways to shut off imports if problems arise. Thus testing in America would benefit very little. Canada, on the other hand must find a way to avoid America's heavy handed trade negotiations, and testing could be one way.

SH
How can it be a smokescreen when research has proven that a large amount of SRMs have to be consumed in order for humans to contract BSE and the largest amount of these prions collect in the SRMs? Ron even admitted that the greatest concentration is in the SRMs.

Careful Dr. SH, your agenda could really show through with statements like this. How many humans do you know of that have eaten copious amounts of BSE contaminated SRM's for experimental purposes. BSE is similar to vCJD, there is no PROOF, as you say, that any human has ever contracted vCJD from contaminated bovine SRM material. That is only a theory.

Your friend
Randy
 

bse-tester

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As for admitting that SRM's carry the greater amount of prions, it is not an admission, but more of an observation of the typical tissue sampling that the Feds have been engaging in for the last few years. It would be an almost impossible task to find a politician who will openly state that prions are found in your T-Bone Steak, but hey pard, they are, if that meat came from an iunfected cow. Of that there is no doubt! As for removing SRM's - the general concensus has been that the first thing "we" (the Feds) must do, is show the general public something and the tissue sample list was a great idea, but unfortunately, like most politically driven moves, it only tells half the story. I can the see the instances of BSE falling since the feed ban, that is a given, but then, is it? Since Canada and the USA are still testing for BSE using out-of-date testing methods, anything is possible. So before you come back and slam me for that last statement, ask yourself this question - if the USDA and the CFIA are so damn good at testing, why is that between the two of them, they cannot get a psotive result that can be replocated within 12 hours - 24 hours. A test that works will be replicated by any lab anywhere in the world. That is another reason why the Haddassah University group could not prove their test, which was using blood and then they tried it on urtine and it still could nto be replicated. SH you can say all you wish about what is what and how you view the world of BSE and prion diseases, but until you have "bin-there, done that" with tissue samples and long hours in the research end of prion diseases, most everything you have quoted is approximately 5 years out of date. Not to offend you, but only an idiot would believe that one would have to eat copious amounts of BSE Prion infected tissue to contract the human variant. My friend, you ahve no idea of the numbers of prions it takes to infect your body. The simple answer is , are you ready SH, here it comes buddy: >>>> ONE (1) prion and you are a member of the CJD warlords. Ron.
 

rkaiser

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Wow bse tester, are you trying to tell us that humans can contract bse from one misfolded prion from a T bone steak?

That's a pretty major claim from someone trying to sell a test is it not?

Agenda's galor.
 
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Ron,

You keep diverting my questions with statements.


Where's your proof that BSE exists in cattle under 24 months of age in the U.S. and Canada to justify the costs of your test?

Where's your proof that BSE can be contracted by eating beef?



You can't justify the need for your test unless you can answer those questions.



~SH~
 

bse-tester

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How old was the host cow, that recently confirmed US case of BSE, when it contracted the disease? Answer me that SH. I suspect it was quite young when it acquired it. Look, the bottom line in this argument is simply that the length of time that this disease takes for the animal to display symptomaic behaviour can be years, and decades inhumans. It stands to reason and has been shown in Finland, in Japan and in France that younger than 24 months of age are infected with the disease but have not shown any outward signs of having it, so the problem that we face in North America is simple - if it ain't a downer or stumbling around acting sick, it ain't tested! You know it and I know it! So, does that convince you that all cows that stroll inton the kill floor are 100% healthy? No damn way are they 100% healthy. In the USA alone, there is close to 300,000 downers per year that are pulled from the human food chain. But millions make it throught the net and enter our food chain and if you are so naive to think that those millions, the majority having no symptoms or signs of illness, are all clean and healthy, then your argument is a sinking ship. England sold over 350,000 tons of offal to France - before the food ban. Canada was shipping offal to Taiwan by the cargo ship load before, during and after the feed ban. We banned the feed and then allowed chickens and pigs to eat it and then we fed the remnants of the chickens and pigs to the cattle. One doesn't need to be too damn smart to figure out that problem. As for the argument that you seem to like about not getting BSE from eating beef. How many cases reports last year alone in Europe where top scientists, like the one in Italy, the case of a woman confirmed to have the nvCJD which science indicated is caused by the consumption of BSE infected meat. The British Government, in 2003, publicly admitted that it was a mistake on their part to have suggested that meat and meat by-products did not cause nvCJD and that due to the ratio of evolving cases of CJD in England vs the amount of infection cases priot to 2003, it was calculated that some 4000 people were infected with the scrapie-form PrPsc agent (BSE/nvCJD Prion) and that that figure, although expected to decline as years went by, was the direct result of eating meat from BSE infected animals. I guess you will not accept the facts that the British Government put forth, but that is the way it was, is and will be as long as we cover our eyes, block our ears and do nothing to make sure our beef supply is the safest and the best in the world. That is something that I am trying to do, in spite of all of these arguments. No offence, but there is enough information already published that will answer your questions and it is out there and all you have to do is look for it. Perhaps you have simply already made up your mind and nothing will change it, not even the facts. A friend in the British Government Ministry of Ag-Foods told me that in late 2003, they were investigating 208 NEW cases of BSE in England that had flared not in one area, but scattered all over the country. This scared the crap out of him as it looked as if there was another outbreak, but everywhere all at once. I am convinced that BSE has been around for a long time and that we have a chance to eradicate from our food supply and bring back consumer confidence through a strong and rigid testing program. But then, that is my opinon. Ron.
 

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Having to justify the cost of a test is easy. If you cannot sell your beef due to the market saying we will not take it becasue we think it is infected with BSE, but we will if it is tested and declared totally safe for our people to eat, then, >>>>>> do the math.


As for the cost? It works out to be literally 1 or two cents per pound. Now, in my own way of thinking, I see it like this: If I had a means by which I could sell my herd and make $ 1.40 per pound let's say for arguments sake. On a 850 lb animal that would be around $ 1190.00 for that animal. So, if the cost of the test to make my customer happy is around $10 - $15.00 per test, that would mean that I would essentially take home about 1175.00 or so per head.

If the customer says no test, no buy! Then I take hope my animal and continue to pay to feed it, to house it, to pay the vet and to worry and whine about why the god-damn government and anyone else who comes along is not helping me. So my friend, with all due respect, I think it is totally easy to figure this one out.

Oh, and Kaiser, just a quick note on that issue of only one prion to become infected. Think about it, before the infecting of that prion, you would be non-infected right. As soon as that puppy enters your body, you are infected and that is that. It may then take the next 60 years or longer hopefully to show up as CJD unless you get the strain that seems to like pouncing almost immediately. The Prion is self-replicating and will generate into many other little critters and as time goes by Kaiser, your one will become many. I hope that answers the questions, nite all. Ron.
 

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"Your opinions is right bse tester" But also the opinion of all the other bse testers around the world including the King of BSE testing, Prusiner.

What I find sad about this whole thing is that this opinion is all based on opinion rather than cold hard facts. Sure you have a lot of the scientific world with the same opinion, but proof that the handful of cows identified as having BSE BECAUSE of contaminated feed is impossible to collect. Proof that humans have contracted vCJD from contaminated bovine products is impossible to collect. And proof that cattle can contract BSE from simply eating one misfolded prion has never happened.

Like I said before, test if it helps sell beef, but I only wish that 1% of the money being spent on testing could be spent on research behind the cause.

Easy to keep blaming the new cases of BSE on human error with feed bans since the world has accepted this as the one and only situation. I agree with you Ron, that BSE has been around for a long time, and will be around for a long time to come. If the world beleives that testing for BSE is the only way to save the human population, get on with it. But you and your company are like everyone else taking advantage of the financial aspect of something we all are accepting as truth, when it is all about opinion.

My opinion Ron.
 
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Ron,

You cannot escape the obvious. Hundreds of thousands of cattle have been BSE tested in the United States and Canada in the highest risk categories of "Dead, Diseased, Dying, and Downers". Of those hundreds of thousands of cattle that have been tested, only a very small amount have been tested positive (5). Those 5 that tested positive were born before the feed ban or during the phase out. If we still have BSE positive cows out there that were born after the feed ban, THEY ARE OLD ENOUGH NOW TO WHERE THEY WOULD BE SHOWING UP! But they're not showing up! Why? Because they are not there!

You're just trying to make a fast buck by preying on people's fears about BSE.

92% of the American public believe our food is safe! Knock yourself out trying to convince them it's not so you can sell your test.

You hear someone in Italy died from eating meat which may have never been confirmed and you sink your teeth into it so you can justify your test.

I'm not buying your sales pitch!


~SH~
 

bse-tester

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"SH" is never going to understand the science as he choses to keep a closed minded attitude toward the science of testing and proving a consumer-based economy all of the necessary comfort that is rapidly becoming not only required in order to market the product, but also demanded by other nations who not only want to import the product, but are willing to do so with a few prerequisites in place. One of them is testing the product for BSE in order to provide a comfort level to the end users. "SH" will argue that prions do not migrate to the meat and other edible products, yet the British, the French and many other nations took the position that meat was a risk and the all gelatin-based products were to be carefully monitored. As in most countries hit with BSE, there is a common denominator that seems to rise as a force to reckon with. In England, the Government was immediately lobbied by Cattlemen to form committees made of its members alongwith the Milk Producers, SHeep Ranchers and all associated interested parties. Much of the decisions made in the UK came out of the so-called study groups made up of ranchers, producers and corporate bodies that had a vested interest in the meat, packing, milk and associated industries. If that is not spiking the deck and leaving the decision making to the fox that is in charge of the chicken coup, I don't know what is. It was then left to the scientists to make sense out of the carnage that became the worst farming catastrophy that England has ever experienced. Unfortunately, the lobby groups, the Parlimentarians and the Governing bodies we being "guided" by those interested groups with the vested interests and therefore, the science was, for the most part, ignored, until it became far too late and far too much of a national disaster to be ignored any longer. So, with tongue in cheek, the Goverment tried to appease both the vested interests and the offshore buyers by saying that yes, we can now agree that mistakes were made and that certain products can be considered unsafe. The major problem we have in North America is that our Governments not only ignored the scientist, some in their employ, but they actually blamed them for not providing enough watch-dog protocols and letting this sort of thing happen. Some scientists were even fired for speaking out and have been all but hung, drawn and quartered by the very same Federal Departments that are supposed to oversee this sort of thing. So "SH," I feel it is important that you learn something of what Prion Disease is all about and then you will realize that it is truly possible to contract the disease if exposed to a meat or meat by-product that has been contaminated with the infectious Scrapie-Form PrPsc. Before you ask me again to offer up proof, ask yourself this: Why do you thenk that a Laboratory that is involved in the testing of Prion Diseases, has to be a "Level Three Facility?" Also, why is it that the technicians working inside that facility are required to work in an environment that offers them the utmost protection from the samples they are testing? Personally, I am scared to high Heaven of that little rogue prion and will move Heaven and earth to bring about a means to test all meats period and all by-products in order to keep the PrPsc out of the human food chain. Again, my thanks to those who engage in civil and educational discussion. That is what this board is all about. Ron.
 

Murgen

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One question, if tested with an accurate live test, then we would not have to remove SRM's right? What are the value of the SRM's in OTM?
 

Mike

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I have a very close friend who works as a scientist and the topic of BSE comes up frequently. He has been unearthing some pretty scary stuff at Ft. Dietrick (sp) that the CIA, Army, "and who knows" buried there sometime back in the 50's. They had to totally remediate and incinerate 3 acres of soil down to fifty feet deep!
What they have been finding in underground in barrels , glass jars, etc. are "potato blights", brucellosis, smallpox, anthrax, yada yada.
One particular vial was dug up and contained something they could not figure out what it was by any means, mass spectometry and other methods did not work. A prion scientist is now on the job. He has enlightened my friend on prion diseases and goverment research.
To make the story short, and I wish I could tell more, but, BSE is more prevalent on this continent than we know. On the "island" where the cohorts and progeny of the last shipments of cattle from the UK, among others, are being "isolated", is a lab where live cattle BSE testing is being performed.
We desparately need a live cattle test folks. Desparately. We may not have 180,000 to 200,000 BSE cases like the UK did/does but we cannot rely on SRM removal to save us if just a "FEW" vCJD cases pop up here.
The media will go ballistic. A live test that will detect minute traces is the only salvation for the cattle business on this continent.
We do NOT want government to be in charge of this disease either. Private enterprise will find a faster cheaper more reliable way to do it.
Let Ron do his work. You will thank him one day.
 

Murgen

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Mike, do you not worry about what you have just posted, and wonder if it just may be enviornmental, or due to military work? Just like Purdey has hypothesized?
 

bse-tester

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Mike, I heard that in a few counties in England, there is a project underway within some of the pits that the cattle were incinerated to test soil there for prions. Since prions cannot be destroyed by heat and the fact that there is more than an average chance that not all tissue was incinerated within the fires, it could be that England has created a major disaster waiting to erupt (Love Canal) because the fear now is that the contaminated mixture has entered the water-table and in some areas, that could be devastating. Thanks for your vote of confidence Mike. Ron.
 

Mike

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Murgen said:
Mike, do you not worry about what you have just posted, and wonder if it just may be enviornmental, or due to military work? Just like Purdey has hypothesized?

I would like to take Purdey more seriously but his "supersonic" flight patterns kinda made me question him. Jury's still out for me on him.
What do you mean "do not worry"? Hell I've got a lot of money invested in cattle, equipment, etc. Does anybody here realize what happened in the UK? And most of it was because of guvment coverups!
 

mrj

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I think I have a healthy degree of skepticism when people are developing and trying to sell tests or use scare tactics to gain more funding for their particular form of research.

I realize scientists have to raise funds, yet aren't there legitimate and not-so-legitimate ways to do so?

Does ANYONE have any proof that the BSE agent (rather than the scrapie agent) has ever been identified in blood from cattle....much less from urine? People do confuse scrapie and BSE, and they behave very differently in the animal.....so what works as a diaagnostic for scrapie will not necessarily, and most likely will NOT, work with BSE.

Have any of these tests been submitted to APHIS-CVB for licensing? If they are, they will be tested, and if it works, they will approve it as an approved test....if not....it will have failed. What tests have been submitted to date?

MRJ
 

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