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Van Dyke; What I think

Sandhusker

Well-known member
1) I think the Van Dyke's are telling the truth, they've got no reason to lie.
2) I think think they did buy Canadian calves, and shipped them to Swift.
3) I think Swift found them and when they first contacted the Van Dykes, they told the truth when they said they were in the Van Dyke's load and that they could account for all of their own Canadian cattle.
4) I think the USDA has found all the people who sold cattle to the Van Dykes
5) I think the USDA asked them all where the calves they sold came from and that all of them said something to order of, "From those cows in that pasture".
6) I think that all of them except one is telling the truth.
7) I think the USDA has a pretty good idea who the liar is, but they can't prove anything.
8) I think the USDA realized they were in a pickle, and not wanting to jeapordize their border policy, they want back to Swift and said, "We have to come up with a story and both agree to it"
9) I think that's when Swift cut a check for the rest and the "mix-up" story came out.
10) I think the USDA and Swift are lying like a rug.

Does anybody else have a better notion?
 

Econ101

Well-known member
I think they could get a little closer to the truth if they used the Canadian ID system to find out more of the first part of the story--where the cattle came from and how they got across the border and not put in a designated feedlot.

I think Swift feels that kind of information is best left unknown as do others who are not helping with that part of the investigation.

What good is an ID system for Canada's customers if it stops at the border?
 

don

Well-known member
econ: I think they could get a little closer to the truth if they used the Canadian ID system to find out more of the first part of the story--where the cattle came from and how they got across the border and not put in a designated feedlot.


then the van dykes or whoever would have to have the canadian tag numbers so that the cattle could be traced to birthplace. i haven't heard yet they have any information other than a general impression of a different sort of tag. their information is pretty sketchy and they didn't seem at all suspicious of canadian origin until the mixup at swift and supposedly that has been explained so right now i don't know how you can prove van dyke's ownership of canadian cattle.



econ: What good is an ID system for Canada's customers if it stops at the border?

the id system is to be used in case of reportable diseases. you seem to have missed out on a lot of background on the id system. confidentiality is a keystone and the system is to be used for tracing animals in case of health issues and no such issue was proven in this case. i really doubt you would want american information handed over to a foreign govt. so they could handle a domestic ownership issue.
 

Mike

Well-known member
I can see now there is going to be a problem in the future in the "North American" beef industry with all the "Confidentiality" verbage being slung back and forth pertaining to the ID system.

Cattle ID can work two ways. It can track cattle "away" from the innocent as well as tracking it "to" the guilty.
 

TimH

Well-known member
Sanhusker wrote-

4) I think the USDA has found all the people who sold cattle to the Van Dykes
5) I think the USDA asked them all where the calves they sold came from and that all of them said something to order of, "From those cows in that pasture".
6) I think that all of them except one is telling the truth.
7) I think the USDA has a pretty good idea who the liar is, but they can't prove anything.

If USDA was able to track all 11 lots(93 head) back to each original owner, once they established the legal ownership of 86 of them, wouldn't process of elimination prove that the owner of the other 7 was the guilty one?

As for this
1) I think the Van Dyke's are telling the truth, they've got no reason to lie.

Van Dykes don't have to be lieing. They could simply be mistaken.
It would sure help if they could provide some proof that the cattle were actually at their place.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Tim, "If USDA was able to track all 11 lots(93 head) back to each original owner, once they established the legal ownership of 86 of them, wouldn't process of elimination prove that the owner of the other 7 was the guilty one?"

How are you going to seperate the liar from everybody else? What if he sold 10, the 7 Canadian and 3 US?
 

Econ101

Well-known member
don said:
econ: I think they could get a little closer to the truth if they used the Canadian ID system to find out more of the first part of the story--where the cattle came from and how they got across the border and not put in a designated feedlot.


then the van dykes or whoever would have to have the canadian tag numbers so that the cattle could be traced to birthplace. i haven't heard yet they have any information other than a general impression of a different sort of tag. their information is pretty sketchy and they didn't seem at all suspicious of canadian origin until the mixup at swift and supposedly that has been explained so right now i don't know how you can prove van dyke's ownership of canadian cattle.

Well, I am not trying to prove that. All I am saying is that the cattle in question could be traced back to the border with the documentation and from the border, with Canada's ID system, back to the sellers.


econ: What good is an ID system for Canada's customers if it stops at the border?

the id system is to be used in case of reportable diseases. you seem to have missed out on a lot of background on the id system. confidentiality is a keystone and the system is to be used for tracing animals in case of health issues and no such issue was proven in this case. i really doubt you would want american information handed over to a foreign govt. so they could handle a domestic ownership issue.

While I think the ID system is not the way to go and I believe a BSE test is a better way, I will address this question.

The cattle, if not documented directly from the border to be slaughtered or in a designated feedlot, were in the country illegally. While I am much more sympathetic to real human illegal aliens and their plight, I do not have as much sympathy for cattle that have a certain eventual fate.

The issues regarding the 30 month rule and the importation rules/laws have everything to do with a case of reportable disease and therefore should be traced by Canada. Maybe there are some cattle rustlers that need to be caught in addition.

If the same thing happened to a U.S. steer in Canada and the tables were turned, I would want proof that the cattle were bse tested and I would hold my government responsible for securing the borders. Isn't this what Canada did with Brittain?
 

TimH

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
Tim, "If USDA was able to track all 11 lots(93 head) back to each original owner, once they established the legal ownership of 86 of them, wouldn't process of elimination prove that the owner of the other 7 was the guilty one?"

How are you going to seperate the liar from everybody else? What if he sold 10, the 7 Canadian and 3 US?

You would identify the 3 head that are legal American cattle, using the same method that the US currently uses to trace their native cattle. It has something to do with brands and paper trails. I'm not sure exactly how it works but you could ask Oldtimer. He swears by it. Says it has worked perfectly for over a hundred years.
The other 7 are the illegal ones. :)
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
Does anybody else have a better notion?

Yep, I do.

1) The cattle were tagged appropriately. This we know, otherwise the animals would have never been traced back to Canada.

2) The cattle crossed the border according to US import law. This we know because the CCIA/CFIA/Vet certs tell us this is so. This also co-incides with what the USDA is telling us.

3) The cattle made it to Swift, where they were mixed up with Van Dykes. Lets face it, Swift plants don't exactly have stunning track records these days so this is hardly a stretch.

4) Swift calls Van Dykes and asks if they had some animals with funky ear tags. Van Dykes say 'Yup, sure, uh huh, shore did'. Whether they did it by accident or are just fools, I don't know, but they were obviously mistaken.

I don't buy cattle rustlin' across the border, because you'd have to be crazy to rustle cattle across the border WITH the CCIA ear tags in the ear. It gives investigators a place to start looking for the culprits.

I don't buy that Van Dykes were able to secure Canadian cattle at a South Dakota auction market. Not only would those animals have to get across the border somehow, the auction market would have to be nuts to allow them to be sold. They'd suddenly be in the chain of liability as well. And no-one here will convince me that those tags got 'missed' by several auction market staffers.

Sorry R-Calf, I don't buy this as a reason to shut down the border. I think Van Dyke's helped the whole thing out by saying they had those Canadian ear tags in their herd when they didn't, whether it was by accident, stupidity, or otherwise, so I don't even feel particularly sorry for them having to wait for their cheque. It does tick me off that Swift has repeatedly screwed up in the past couple years, yet are still merrily conducting business without any kind of seeming penalties.

Rod
 

cowsense

Well-known member
Econ101 said:
don said:
econ: I think they could get a little closer to the truth if they used the Canadian ID system to find out more of the first part of the story--where the cattle came from and how they got across the border and not put in a designated feedlot.


then the van dykes or whoever would have to have the canadian tag numbers so that the cattle could be traced to birthplace. i haven't heard yet they have any information other than a general impression of a different sort of tag. their information is pretty sketchy and they didn't seem at all suspicious of canadian origin until the mixup at swift and supposedly that has been explained so right now i don't know how you can prove van dyke's ownership of canadian cattle.

Well, I am not trying to prove that. All I am saying is that the cattle in question could be traced back to the border with the documentation and from the border, with Canada's ID system, back to the sellers.


econ: What good is an ID system for Canada's customers if it stops at the border?

the id system is to be used in case of reportable diseases. you seem to have missed out on a lot of background on the id system. confidentiality is a keystone and the system is to be used for tracing animals in case of health issues and no such issue was proven in this case. i really doubt you would want american information handed over to a foreign govt. so they could handle a domestic ownership issue.

While I think the ID system is not the way to go and I believe a BSE test is a better way, I will address this question.

The cattle, if not documented directly from the border to be slaughtered or in a designated feedlot, were in the country illegally. While I am much more sympathetic to real human illegal aliens and their plight, I do not have as much sympathy for cattle that have a certain eventual fate.

The issues regarding the 30 month rule and the importation rules/laws have everything to do with a case of reportable disease and therefore should be traced by Canada. Maybe there are some cattle rustlers that need to be caught in addition.

If the same thing happened to a U.S. steer in Canada and the tables were turned, I would want proof that the cattle were bse tested and I would hold my government responsible for securing the borders. Isn't this what Canada did with Brittain?

Econ; Get a grip and go back and read the last of the press releases by Dr. Holland. There were no illegal cattle delivered to Swift; the harvested cattle were BRED, BORN, AND FED IN CANADA; the ID tags prove conclusively that these cattle were delivered in a sealed trailer direct to Swift on Nov. 29. As far as reportable disease these cattle were all vet inspected prior to loading and were all healthy normal cattle that would also be health inspected as part of the normal slaughter process.
You and Sadhusker can take your conspiracy theories and shove them up the same dark body cavity that your heads occupy along with your endless r-clown rhetoric against Canadians!
 

WB

Well-known member
I agree with your presumptions Sandhusker. If there was just a mixup at the plant why did Swift need USDA to help straighten it out? If there was a plain paper trail from Canada to the Swift plant why did USDA have Van Dyke sign affidavits stating that those tags came from their cattle? And if this paper trail was so plain why did it take 47 days to figure out that there was a mixup at the plant?

Swift knows how many Canadian cattle were checked in at the plant that day this I am pretty sure of and the numbers did not match up. Now USDA is calling good people liars to to cover their tracks.


I don't know why so many find this story to be so unbelievable.
 

Bill

Well-known member
WB said:
I agree with your presumptions Sandhusker. If there was just a mixup at the plant why did Swift need USDA to help straighten it out? If there was a plain paper trail from Canada to the Swift plant why did USDA have Van Dyke sign affidavits stating that those tags came from their cattle? And if this paper trail was so plain why did it take 47 days to figure out that there was a mixup at the plant?

Swift knows how many Canadian cattle were checked in at the plant that day this I am pretty sure of and the numbers did not match up. Now USDA is calling good people liars to to cover their tracks.


I don't know why so many find this story to be so unbelievable.

Ever heard of the story of the Boy who Cried WOLF?

R-Calf, its affiliates and supporters have desensitized and made a heck of a lot of people on both sides of the line more than just a bit suspicious. No doubt some of their pom=pommers on this site have also added to this mistrust with their antics.

I am sure all of this also played a large part in them losing 3000 members and $275,000 last year.
 

PORKER

Well-known member
Mike Quote,I can see now there is going to be a problem in the future in the "North American" beef industry with all the "Confidentiality" verbage being slung back and forth pertaining to the ID system.

Cattle ID can work two ways. It can track cattle "away" from the innocent as well as tracking it "to" the guilty.

You Got It. This is what Willian Kanitz designed into the ScoringAg recordkeeping system. The crimnals and counterfieters hate this database. So if the government lies then woo to them. This mess which has not helped Canada ,causes alarm in the food and Bioterrorism levels of Homeland Security. I now think that Mrs. Fong USDA Inspector General OIG be brought in to pull this mess apart and find out who ,since this is offical USDA business.
 

Bill

Well-known member
PORKER said:
Mike Quote,I can see now there is going to be a problem in the future in the "North American" beef industry with all the "Confidentiality" verbage being slung back and forth pertaining to the ID system.

Cattle ID can work two ways. It can track cattle "away" from the innocent as well as tracking it "to" the guilty.

You Got It. This is what Willian Kanitz designed into the ScoringAg recordkeeping system. The crimnals and counterfieters hate this database. So if the government lies then woo to them. This mess which has not helped Canada ,causes alarm in the food and Bioterrorism levels of Homeland Security. I now think that Mrs. Fong USDA Inspector General OIG be brought in to pull this mess apart and find out who ,since this is offical USDA business.

I would support a database like Canada's which is controlled by producers ANY DAY over one that is a "for profit business"as I know which is more secure with my information.

I don't see CCIA or any other US entity trying to get free advertising in this site like ScoringAg. That tells me alot.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
WB said:
I don't know why so many find this story to be so unbelievable.

Because it is unbelievable.

In order for things to proceed as Sandhusker lays out, the following things would need to have happened:

1) First, tagged and sealed cattle would have to be offloaded from a truck. Why do we know they were tagged and sealed? First, we know they were tagged because they were identified as Canadian cattle. The only way to do this is with a CCIA tag. How do we know they were exported validly? Because records on both sides of the border say they were. We also know these calves were destined for a Swift plant.

2) Second, the trucker would have to break the seal and offload a batch of calves at an auction market. Not likely a trucker will risk his livelihood for doing something like that.

3) Third, the auction market would have had to accept those calves, and ALL workers would have to miss the easily seen RFID tags. Again, no auction market is going to risk their livelihood on selling illegal calves for questionable gain. 7 calves? Maybe if it were 700.

4) Four, Van Dykes would have had to miss the tags and bought the calves. If they didn't miss the tags, then they purposely bought illegal calves.

5) Those calves, which were supposed to go to a Swift plant according to documentation on both sides of the border, just happened to get shipped to a Swift plant after they'd been fed out?

So thats why its so unbelievable. Combined these with Van Dykes being unable to prove those calves were in their herd and you have a story thats too incredible. Its much easier to believe that a packer with a history of screwing up mixed up some animals, and a producer mistakenly identified some ear tags as having come from their ranch.

Which is more believable now?

Rod
 

PORKER

Well-known member
This mess which has not helped Canada ,causes alarm in the food and Bioterrorism levels of Homeland Security. I now think that Mrs. Fong USDA Inspector General OIG be brought in to pull this mess apart and find out who ,since this is offical USDA business.

Gee Bill, I see one of your great Canadians is working with them . Go to the Contact Page on ScoringAg
 

Jason

Well-known member
It's pretty easy to figure out that a gate was left open or someone was not paying attention in the yard of the packer. They pushed the right number of cattle back into the pens and never said anything figuring no one would be the wiser.

With the requirements for the packers to report the CCIA tags, the paper pushers in the office probably freaked when they had tags in the wrong kill. Office staff at these places doesn't have a clue about cattle behavior, or open gates, they just passed it on.

If the US cattle were tagged for ID as well, then there would be no problem in matching all carcasses to tags, the hook would be numbered according to the tag. It would allow another few days to sort the cattle into the right ownership.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Sandhusker said:
Does anybody else have a better notion?



1) The cattle were tagged appropriately. This we know, otherwise the animals would have never been traced back to Canada.

2) The cattle crossed the border according to US import law. This we know because the CCIA/CFIA/Vet certs tell us this is so. This also co-incides with what the USDA is telling us.

3) The cattle made it to Swift, where they were mixed up with Van Dykes. Lets face it, Swift plants don't exactly have stunning track records these days so this is hardly a stretch.

4) Swift calls Van Dykes and asks if they had some animals with funky ear tags. Van Dykes say 'Yup, sure, uh huh, shore did'. Whether they did it by accident or are just fools, I don't know, but they were obviously mistaken.

I don't buy cattle rustlin' across the border, because you'd have to be crazy to rustle cattle across the border WITH the CCIA ear tags in the ear. It gives investigators a place to start looking for the culprits.

I don't buy that Van Dykes were able to secure Canadian cattle at a South Dakota auction market. Not only would those animals have to get across the border somehow, the auction market would have to be nuts to allow them to be sold. They'd suddenly be in the chain of liability as well. And no-one here will convince me that those tags got 'missed' by several auction market staffers.

Sorry R-Calf, I don't buy this as a reason to shut down the border. I think Van Dyke's helped the whole thing out by saying they had those Canadian ear tags in their herd when they didn't, whether it was by accident, stupidity, or otherwise, so I don't even feel particularly sorry for them having to wait for their cheque. It does tick me off that Swift has repeatedly screwed up in the past couple years, yet are still merrily conducting business without any kind of seeming penalties.

Rod

I'm glad you posted, Rod. This is what I wanted. Now let me "cross examine" you!

1) Expain Swift's initial call to Van Dykes claiming that all of their Canadian cattle had been accounted for. With what some have said about the paperwork and what not, It should be easy for them to indeed know what they had. One of the things that I have been saying all along is that Swift should of figured it out themselves easily. That call says that they did.


2) If the cattle crossed lawfully, why 47 days to figure that out?

3) I think they easily could of gotten thru a sale barn. They weren't marked properly, and why would anybody check ear tags? Even if they did, can you imagine all the different types of tags that these guys have seen? Unless it has big letters spelling out CANADA, they wouldn't get a second glance.
 

Bill

Well-known member
PORKER said:
This mess which has not helped Canada ,causes alarm in the food and Bioterrorism levels of Homeland Security. I now think that Mrs. Fong USDA Inspector General OIG be brought in to pull this mess apart and find out who ,since this is offical USDA business.

Gee Bill, I see one of your great Canadians is working with them . Go to the Contact Page on ScoringAg

Gee Porker, what's your point?

There are a lot of "great Canadians" working for companies all over the world and especially the US.
 

don

Well-known member
sandhusker as long as you're asking for all these explanations take the time to explain why anybody smuggling canadian cattle into the us would leave the most obvious and definitive identifying mark on the animals. any canadian would know the tags would trace the animals back to their farm/ranch and any american trying to skirt the law would be trying to cover his tracks and avoid sale barn tracing of the animals back to himself and/or canada. this is only circumstantial evidence but it's every bit as valid as all your beefing about timelines and rumors and claims. if van dyke's can't produce real hard evidence that cattle with canadian tags were in their feedlot you've got nothing.
 
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