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Van Dyke; What I think

Kato

Well-known member
:D :D Why thank you kind sir. I do my best thinking waiting until it's time to put on the parka and go check the cows. :wink:
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
How much experience does it take to match a tag number with the corresponding document? Matching is a skill mastered in Kindergarten. You either have # 875998 or you don't. Swift said they had done that, as would be logical. 47 days later they changed their story.
 

Kato

Well-known member
But they did say they had accounted for all the Canadian cattle that day right?

There could have been Canadian cattle that should have been processed with two numbers, and weren't. Perhaps these extra tags were attributed to the Van Dyke cattle.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
They know that SOME cattle crossed the border. They don't have to be involved in a coverup - how do they know the tags they are being asked to verify are the ones from the cattle in question?

Sandhusker, they know which tags crossed the border. The CCIA numbers are recorded, and these numbers are unique. No two tags the same and the tags cannot be removed from one animal and placed in another animals ear.

Rod
 
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Anonymous

Guest
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Sandhusker, they know which tags crossed the border. The CCIA numbers are recorded, and these numbers are unique. No two tags the same and the tags cannot be removed from one animal and placed in another animals ear.

Rod

Wanna Bet? Anything made by man can be counterfeited...Ear tags as develaped so far , for purpose of ownership or identification would not stand up to 5 minutes of cross examination by any two bit attorney....
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Sandhusker said:
They know that SOME cattle crossed the border. They don't have to be involved in a coverup - how do they know the tags they are being asked to verify are the ones from the cattle in question?

Sandhusker, they know which tags crossed the border. The CCIA numbers are recorded, and these numbers are unique. No two tags the same and the tags cannot be removed from one animal and placed in another animals ear.

Rod

Sure they know which tags crossed the border, but they don't know what cattle those tags were on. All they have is the USDA's word that those were the tags from the cattle in question.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Wanna Bet? Anything made by man can be counterfeited...Ear tags as develaped so far , for purpose of ownership or identification would not stand up to 5 minutes of cross examination by any two bit attorney....

C'mon OT, do you really believe someone would take all that time, effort and energy for 7 lousy animals? And to what gain? Are Canadian cattle really that much better than US that its worth it to get some kind of premium? If thats the case, I'd best inform the buyers up here who are buying US animals by the thousands....

Rod
 

Bill

Well-known member
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
Wanna Bet? Anything made by man can be counterfeited...Ear tags as develaped so far , for purpose of ownership or identification would not stand up to 5 minutes of cross examination by any two bit attorney....

C'mon OT, do you really believe someone would take all that time, effort and energy for 7 lousy animals? And to what gain? Are Canadian cattle really that much better than US that its worth it to get some kind of premium? If thats the case, I'd best inform the buyers up here who are buying US animals by the thousands....

Rod

You make a good point Rod.

There is only one group that would benefit by all the mudslinging that came out of this. Anything to cast some doubt on the system and try spread suspicion at a key time in the border decision making process.

But.......but...but...R-Calf wasn't officially involved! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah right.

Sandhusker maybe you ought to worry more about the implosion occurring in Billings and run to your buddy Bills side. That cheap beer and Hormel Chili you spoke of last week is really creating a foul stench.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
Wanna Bet? Anything made by man can be counterfeited...Ear tags as develaped so far , for purpose of ownership or identification would not stand up to 5 minutes of cross examination by any two bit attorney....

C'mon OT, do you really believe someone would take all that time, effort and energy for 7 lousy animals? And to what gain? Are Canadian cattle really that much better than US that its worth it to get some kind of premium? If thats the case, I'd best inform the buyers up here who are buying US animals by the thousands....

Rod

Was there 7 or 70? Swift said 8--Did another 60 got to another owner that caught them and removed them--or to a plant that didn't catch them? But the point I'm trying to make is that those tags prove nothing-- you could have duplicate numbers whatever...Tags (as they exist today) are worthless for proving ownership and that is the reason they are not accepted by any state that I know of for that purpose....

And if there is a buck to be found doing it illegally- someone will think of it....Anything made by man can be counterfieited or altered--or removed or added-- sometimes quite simply....

I hope USDA was bright enough to look at all the Canadian tags killed that day and just not those 7 or 8 or whatever...
 

mwj

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
Wanna Bet? Anything made by man can be counterfeited...Ear tags as develaped so far , for purpose of ownership or identification would not stand up to 5 minutes of cross examination by any two bit attorney....

C'mon OT, do you really believe someone would take all that time, effort and energy for 7 lousy animals? And to what gain? Are Canadian cattle really that much better than US that its worth it to get some kind of premium? If thats the case, I'd best inform the buyers up here who are buying US animals by the thousands....

Rod

Was there 7 or 70? Swift said 8--Did another 60 got to another owner that caught them and removed them--or to a plant that didn't catch them? But the point I'm trying to make is that those tags prove nothing-- you could have duplicate numbers whatever...Tags (as they exist today) are worthless for proving ownership and that is the reason they are not accepted by any state that I know of for that purpose....

And if there is a buck to be found doing it illegally- someone will think of it....Anything made by man can be counterfieited or altered--or removed or added-- sometimes quite simply....

I hope USDA was bright enough to look at all the Canadian tags killed that day and just not those 7 or 8 or whatever...

By golly OT you hit the nail on the head! If they were in Montana it is a ''fact'' they could not duplicate a brand or a branding iron. Some reliable sources say they hire non humans to inspect brands so there are never any mistakes made with brands 8) Would you please post the info on how we can make our own Ca bar code tags, I already have the branding iron figured out. I can find me 7or8 calves and a magicmarker and get rich :eek:
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Try your rebranding mwj-- brands can be "aged" to tell if they were altered or which was first...But I wouldn't expect someone from Chicago with a Jersey milk cow for an avatar to know that :roll: :wink: :lol:
 

mwj

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Try your rebranding mwj-- brands can be "aged" to tell if they were altered or which was first...But I wouldn't expect someone from Chicago with a Jersey milk cow for an avatar to know that :roll: :wink: :lol:

Why are you talking about rebranding that was not mentioned was it. You also forgot to tell us the easy way to make those tags. I am glad to hear that in the history of the state of Montana there has never been a case where an inspector made a mistake or a brand was misrepresented. All you have to do is sell them to the packer because I heard on this board that packers do not check brands. Which way do you want to have it OT the packers are not going to check brands or they check by aging? Have any idea what that swift plants use? I had really hoped you would not recognise the poor breed character of the cow :(
 
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Anonymous

Guest
mwj said:
Oldtimer said:
Try your rebranding mwj-- brands can be "aged" to tell if they were altered or which was first...But I wouldn't expect someone from Chicago with a Jersey milk cow for an avatar to know that :roll: :wink: :lol:

Why are you talking about rebranding that was not mentioned was it. You also forgot to tell us the easy way to make those tags. I am glad to hear that in the history of the state of Montana there has never been a case where an inspector made a mistake or a brand was misrepresented. All you have to do is sell them to the packer because I heard on this board that packers do not check brands. Which way do you want to have it OT the packers are not going to check brands or they check by aging? Have any idea what that swift plants use? I had really hoped you would not recognise the poor breed character of the cow :(

Every animal going thru a slaughter house in Montana has to be brand inspected- and the hides tagged to correspond to the brand inspection so they are available for reviewing if needed....
If a question arises- they are reinspected....

Wouldn't take care of all problems- because nothing is perfect, but a lot of the problems would be solved if some of these areas/states made a little effort on their own.....

And it still shows my point- that eartags alone, with the technology that now exists, are worthless for proving ownership.....
 

mwj

Well-known member
So how many swift plants are there in Montana OT? How long are those hides available for reinspection when they go in the hide room of a large plant. What size of Montana plants are you talking about 2-5000 head a day? Since you admit that your system (brands) does not work what would the system be that you would stand behind?
 
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Anonymous

Guest
mwj said:
So how many swift plants are there in Montana OT? How long are those hides available for reinspection when they go in the hide room of a large plant. What size of Montana plants are you talking about 2-5000 head a day? Since you admit that your system (brands) does not work what would the system be that you would stand behind?

No Swift Plants that I know of-- we have no major plants anymore-probably because most packers don't like operating in the light of day...

The brand system does work...Are some missed sometimes- yep-- but I know its far less than the 10% tag loss and tag unreadability problem....And when you have all states checking brands- sometimes one missed in that state like ND will be caught somewhere else like at a Mt market- and visa versa...With hot iron permanent ID they can still be tracked months and years later with no doubt of changes or altering-- and have been to lots and slaughterhouses all over the country...

But if the state, USDA, or slaughter house has no one inspecting you can't expect it to work....No system will work if no one is even set up to inspect them....

If all these imported cattle had to be branded with the C^N like I thought all Canadian cattle were going to be made to be, with no exceptions-- you should know before they kill them how many C^N's they have-which should match the number of cattle Swift brought in by sealed load---and if during the kill a problem arose, it would have been quite easy at the end of the kill run to drag out those hides and see if the C^N's matched to the number of Canadian cattle that were supposed be slaughtered in Swifts load-- if you got more than what Swift was supposed to- you got a problem...

So if Swift hauled in 50 head- and you have 50 C^N's inspected prior to slaughter and at the end of the day you have 57 tags- you got a problem...And it would have verified Mr. VanDycks story.....

And I have spent days going thru stacks of stinking hides trying to find one when a question arose....It can be and has been done...
 

TimH

Well-known member
Oldtimer wrote-(in 2007!!!)

And I have spent days going thru stacks of stinking hides trying to find one when a question arose....It can be and has been done...

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Now that's dag'gum 'sho-nuf efficient, right there!! :D :D :D

Hey Festus!!! How did you match the carcass to the "stinking hide"????

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I have to go and lay down for a while. My sides hurt. :D :D :D
 

mwj

Well-known member
OT let me get this straight Montana has no large packing plants but if they did the hides would lay around till they stunk :shock: I thought at the price of hides they would care for them better than that :roll: If a plant was killing say 2-5000 head a day how long do you supose they just let those hides lay around so someone could rumage around in the pile looking for 7-8 hides. With the brand system you say you rely somewhat on other state brand inspectors to rely as backup, would that be like the usda having another agency help look thru a situation that comes up :wink:
 
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Anonymous

Guest
mwj-- The plant I worked in the early 70's killed 250-500 a day...The hides were salted and stayed there until they got a freight car full back then....But usually if there was a foul up you knew about it within hours and could do the backtracking-- and you always had the initial paper work of the first inspection...

Whatever method you use-- You have to have a system and an infrastructure and that is what USDA appears not to have...
 
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Anonymous

Guest
TimH said:
Hey Festus!!! How did you match the carcass to the "stinking hide"????

The same way you match the carcass to the "stinking little tag"... :roll:
 

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