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Sandhusker

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I think there is something to be learned here.....
I have a good college buddy (business and marketing major) that lives in Tampa, Florida. We generally talk every month or so and he called me last night to ask "What's the deal with Canadian and Japanese cattle"? I explained that most countries don't want to have a thing to do with BSE and if you are found to have it, they shut you out. Canada got a case in May, 2003 so we closed the border and now there is a fight regarding opening it back up or not. He asked, "Why do we need their beef in the first place?" I told him that we really didn't. He then asked how BSE was spread and I told him most people thought it came from eating infected feed from byproducts, but that there was a whole lot we didn't know for sure. His next question was, "So if Canada has it, why did Japan close the door on us"? I told him we imported a Canadian cow that was found to have it so, as far as Japan is concerned, we are a BSE country. His next comment was , "Sounds to me like they need to develop a test everybody can use and just figure out what the hell we and Canada has or doesn't have". I told him that there are tests developed that will do exactly that, but the USDA won't let anybody but themselves us it. His reply, "You've got to me kidding me! What the hell are they thinking?" I told him about the Creekstone deal and he asked, "Who is pulling USDA's strings? Something is going on, this just doesn't make any sense. Looks to me like some big shots bought some Japanese ranches - you can bet there's big money throwing their weight around" He asked me if he should be concerned about BSE and I told him "no". He then made a comment that he just might "play it safe" and make sure he only bought US beef. I asked him how he planned on doing that and he replied, "I'll make sure it has the "US" on the label" I then explained to him that the USDA stamp had nothing to do with country of origin. His reply, "Who, other than a rancher or butcher, would know that? What are people supposed to think when they see "USDA" on the package?" He then said, "Looks to me like you need to sic 60 Minutes on the USDA and let people like me know what is going on. I had no idea what was going on, and I'll bet not many of us city people do. There's a whole lot of nonsense happening".

These are the comments of a city person. I would bet they are typical of any other city dweller who does't follow the cattle and beef industries.
 

Bull Burger

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Did you or he ever actually request U.S. beef from a retailer? That is how to get COOL working. Does your friend know he can get branded beef products that are source-verified?

Consumers talk way different than they spend.
 

SMS

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sandhusker, i find the opposite reaction the americian urbanites.

I have had more requests for cut beef from the states in the last year than ever before. The main reason they give me is that they believe our system works, and are worried about the USDA system cause it allow the cow to the human food system.

So i pass their names on to a reasonable rancher that sells South Devon boxed beef also in Colorado. In fact, one of my past bull customers. But i know his beef is clean, so i feel good in passing them off to him to service.

The last thing you want in the USA is 60 minutes looking into the USDA. That would be like asking oprah to do a show on BSE and beef markets...Oh yeah thats allready been done...lol
 

Tam

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Did you tell him the truth or the truth according to R-CALF?

When your friend asked if US need the Canadian beef did you tell him that since your export markets were closed down you imported 23% more beef to cover your domestic demand so he could still enjoy beef at a price he could afford?

Did you tell your friend that the infected imported cow was in your food chain and some of her could have been eaten as the FDA meat recall was less then 50% effective and that is why Japan is concerned?

When he asked about the test did you tell him that there is a testing program to find the true prevalance and the US and Canada are both to test the 4D catagory of cattle, those in the HIGHEST risk of have BSE , but the US ranchers don't want to turn over their 4D like the Canadian ranchers so the USDA has to rely on slaughter plants to get their test samples? And did you tell him that most countries that test 100% have not found BSE in cattle under the age of thirty months and this is the age of the cattle Cheekstone would likely be testing?

Did you tell your friend that the USDA label does mean that the meat was inspected by the USDA and was found to have passed the same standards that US beef would have had to pass to carry the USDA inspected label ?

Did you remember to tell your friend that the US beef industry has no way of proving where their beef really comes from. as they don't have a national ID system like Canada that can trace animals to birth place? so even if it was labeled you couldn't guarantee the label.? And that over the years millions of Canadian cattle have entered the US and you can't find them so even if it was slaughtered in the US it may still be Canadian beef?

Did you tell him that the Washington cow was in the US food chain but none of the infected cattle found in Canada entered the food chain here? Maybe if you had he would have said I guess I'll be buying Canadian until we are sure about the true prevalence of BSE in the US and something is done about the firewall that allowed the one case to enter the food chain in the US.
 

rancher

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Tam, this is a honest want to know post and no hidden agenda. The first cow that wasn't tested until months after it was on the shelf, how come the meat didn't go into the food chain? Where did it go? I am sure I read it somewhere, my brain just can't find the info. 1 more week of this crud and I should be cured.
 

Sandhusker

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Bull Burger said:
Did you or he ever actually request U.S. beef from a retailer? That is how to get COOL working. Does your friend know he can get branded beef products that are source-verified?

Consumers talk way different than they spend.

He has never asked for US product because he had no reason to think he wasn't already getting it. He thought the USDA label meant it was from the US, like the vast majorty of consumers do.
 

Kato

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It was rendered into NON ruminant feed.

It was traced out to every farm that purchased it.

Any farms that had resident cattle was depopulated on the slim prossibility that those animals may have accidentally gotten into it, even though it was processed into chicken or pig feed.

All those cattle were tested .... NEGATIVE.

During that first investigation over two thousand animals were sacrificed and tested. .... NEGATIVE
 

Sandhusker

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Tam said:
Did you tell him the truth or the truth according to R-CALF?

Response; Sounds like you want me to tell him the truth according to Tam :wink:

When your friend asked if US need the Canadian beef did you tell him that since your export markets were closed down you imported 23% more beef to cover your domestic demand so he could still enjoy beef at a price he could afford?

Response; Uh, Tam.... our export markets being closed INCREASED the supply here. Higher supply generally decreases prices.... :D

Did you tell your friend that the infected imported cow was in your food chain and some of her could have been eaten as the FDA meat recall was less then 50% effective and that is why Japan is concerned?

Response; If I would of mentioned the Washington cow, shouldn't I of mentioned that we simply don't know how many Canadian beefs have entered prior to May, 2003?

When he asked about the test did you tell him that there is a testing program to find the true prevalance and the US and Canada are both to test the 4D catagory of cattle, those in the HIGHEST risk of have BSE , but the US ranchers don't want to turn over their 4D like the Canadian ranchers so the USDA has to rely on slaughter plants to get their test samples? And did you tell him that most countries that test 100% have not found BSE in cattle under the age of thirty months and this is the age of the cattle Cheekstone would likely be testing?

Response; I don't think he would believe me if I told him we practice the three S's here in the US, but the Canadians do not. I did tell him that Creekstone's tests probably wouldn't find anything. He laughed and said, "So what's the deal? They get a test ran, you make a sale, everybody should be happy. I wish my customers were that easy to please".

Did you tell your friend that the USDA label does mean that the meat was inspected by the USDA and was found to have passed the same standards that US beef would have had to pass to carry the USDA inspected label ?

Response; He asked me what the USDA stamp meant if it didn't mean the meat was from the US. I told him that it meant it had passed inspection to the USDA's standards. His reply, "Is it our guys or whatever countries guys?" I told him it was the other country's guys inspecting to our standards. He replied, "So what's stopping them from slapping that stamp on some crap and sending it to us - we just take their word for it?"

Did you remember to tell your friend that the US beef industry has no way of proving where their beef really comes from. as they don't have a national ID system like Canada that can trace animals to birth place? so even if it was labeled you couldn't guarantee the label.? And that over the years millions of Canadian cattle have entered the US and you can't find them so even if it was slaughtered in the US it may still be Canadian beef?

Response; I told him that he has no way of knowing where the last steak he bought came from unless he bought a branded beef product. He said,
"Branded sounds like I'm going to be paying for some advertising. Why can't I just pick it out of the pile like I do now.?" I told him the big packers don't want it that way so they can buy cheap foreign crap and pass it off as US. He laughed and said, "Brenda tried to cook a roast a few weeks ago and it had an off taste to it. I thought it was her cooking, but now I'm wondering where that beef came from - we probably got some el toro that Pedro in Mexico slapped a USDA stamp on."

Did you tell him that the Washington cow was in the US food chain but none of the infected cattle found in Canada entered the food chain here? Maybe if you had he would have said I guess I'll be buying Canadian until we are sure about the true prevalence of BSE in the US and something is done about the firewall that allowed the one case to enter the food chain in the US.

Why? Suspect cattle don't go into the food supply now until they pass. Maybe I should tell him that we can't trust Stalin? :wink:

When he called me and asked about what was going on, I knew I would get material for this board. I purposefully tried to be as nonbiased as I could with my explanations so I could get his response. Once I noted his responses, I told him that the big packers were behind most of our problems and that the USDA did most of their dirty work. He said, "Sounds like there is a lot of shenanigans going on at all of our expense. Shouldn't be hard to figure out, just check everybody's wallets"
 

Bull Burger

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Sandhusker said:
Bull Burger said:
Did you or he ever actually request U.S. beef from a retailer? That is how to get COOL working. Does your friend know he can get branded beef products that are source-verified?

Consumers talk way different than they spend.

He has never asked for US product because he had no reason to think he wasn't already getting it. He thought the USDA label meant it was from the US, like the vast majorty of consumers do.

When you make a new note for someone, do they not ask you the interest rate because they know your'e a good guy?
 
A

Anonymous

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Bull Burger said:
Did you or he ever actually request U.S. beef from a retailer? That is how to get COOL working. Does your friend know he can get branded beef products that are source-verified?

Consumers talk way different than they spend.

Bull Burger- Did you ever try to buy source verified in Podunk Montana? Tough to do-- Has to be air-freighted in, or travel several 100 miles to find a specialized store, or you have to find someone that will illegally sell you "not for sale" home slaughtered packaged beef since we have no USDA licensed package plants near by- You can buy a live beef from a rancher- but not packaged- so when the steaks are gone and you want to entertain, you either take your gamble on if its US, Canadian, Mexican or Uruguain or wherever, or you don't serve steaks or prime rib....

Many local consumers became quite aware after the first Canadian cow, that some of the individual packaged beef they were buying came in as swinging beef from Canada, but the butcher had to tell them he was stuck with what the supplier brought him and did not have an idea until he went to cutting it and saw the Canadian stamps, which came off when he trimmed and the USDA stamp went on... Some of these consumers went to buying quarters, and halves direct from the rancher (grey area under the law- can you buy half a cow?)-- but I always wondered how many when they ran short of choice cuts bought chicken or pork when they couldn't be guaranteed that the packaged beef was of US origin......And I'm sure there are other areas of the country in the same situation as around here.....

Why make crooks out of ranchers and consumers that want to know the safety and country of origin of their beef -- LABEL IT and give them a choice.....
 
A

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Oldtimer said:
Bull Burger said:
Did you or he ever actually request U.S. beef from a retailer? That is how to get COOL working. Does your friend know he can get branded beef products that are source-verified?

Consumers talk way different than they spend.

Bull Burger- Did you ever try to buy source verified in Podunk Montana? Tough to do-- Has to be air-freighted in, or travel several 100 miles to find a specialized store, or you have to find someone that will illegally sell you "not for sale" home slaughtered packaged beef since we have no USDA licensed package plants near by- You can buy a live beef from a rancher- but not packaged- so when the steaks are gone and you want to entertain, you either take your gamble on if its US, Canadian, Mexican or Uruguain or wherever, or you don't serve steaks or prime rib....

Many local consumers became quite aware after the first Canadian cow- (first they had questioned the USDA stamp) , that some of the individual packaged beef they were buying came in as swinging beef from Canada, but the butcher had to tell them he was stuck with what the supplier brought him and did not have an idea until he went to cutting it and saw the Canadian stamps, which came off when he trimmed and the USDA stamp went on... Some of these consumers went to buying quarters, and halves direct from the rancher (grey area under the law- can you buy half a cow?)-- but I always wondered how many when they ran short of choice cuts bought chicken or pork when they couldn't be guaranteed that the packaged beef was of US origin......And I'm sure there are other areas of the country in the same situation as around here.....

Why make crooks out of ranchers and consumers that want to know the safety and country of origin of their beef -- LABEL IT and give them a choice.....
 

sw

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OT,
we have formed a co-op that is to have Montana Branded Beef in the major stores in Montana in April. It will be labeled "Raised Right, from Montana Branded Beef Association." We are getting a contract with a packer, all of the cattle have to be source verified, and they will have to be raised, fed, and processed to our specs. NO mandatory nothing, we are trying to make the ranchers more money from a quality animal and capturing value from the animals that we raise, right into the meat counter. We will take in new members, I believe that we have around 50 right now that control something like 40,000 mother cows. We have not really advertised this yet, we will real soon. Wanted to get our ducks in a row first. I feel that I am privileged as they are processing some of our cattle next week, they will be some of the first to have the label. This is why I am not in favor of M-Cool, If you have a product that you are proud of, label it yourself, but you had better know what you are selling. We have been working on this for three years, I have been carcass testing for 12. Wish us luck. :)
 

Bull Burger

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Oldtimer said:
Bull Burger- Did you ever try to buy source verified in Podunk Montana? Tough to do-- Has to be air-freighted in, or travel several 100 miles to find a specialized store, or you have to find someone that will illegally sell you "not for sale" home slaughtered packaged beef since we have no USDA licensed package plants near by- You can buy a live beef from a rancher- but not packaged- so when the steaks are gone and you want to entertain, you either take your gamble on if its US, Canadian, Mexican or Uruguain or wherever, or you don't serve steaks or prime rib....

Oldtimer, do you know the meatcutter at your local grocery store? And I do realize you probably live 100 miles from any town. Podunk, SD isn't much different. You are on the internet right now, you can buy it and have it delivered overnight, right?

Your local store guy can tell you where it came from. If you don't think so, you probably haven't ever asked him. :) Maybe you're just repeating what you've heard.



Oldtimer said:
.........you either take your gamble on if its US, Canadian, Mexican or Uruguain or wherever.........

Is this the "verified" truth, or is this what somebody told you?
 

Bull Burger

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sw said:
OT,
we have formed a co-op that is to have Montana Branded Beef in the major stores in Montana in April. It will be labeled "Raised Right, from Montana Branded Beef Association." We are getting a contract with a packer, all of the cattle have to be source verified, and they will have to be raised, fed, and processed to our specs. NO mandatory nothing, we are trying to make the ranchers more money from a quality animal and capturing value from the animals that we raise, right into the meat counter. We will take in new members, I believe that we have around 50 right now that control something like 40,000 mother cows. We have not really advertised this yet, we will real soon. Wanted to get our ducks in a row first. I feel that I am privileged as they are processing some of our cattle next week, they will be some of the first to have the label. This is why I am not in favor of M-Cool, If you have a product that you are proud of, label it yourself, but you had better know what you are selling. We have been working on this for three years, I have been carcass testing for 12. Wish us luck. :)

sw, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor! I admire people who take the bull by the horns :!: Keep us posted.
 

Faster horses

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SW, that is good POSITIVE news!! Please keep us informed. Will be looking for advertisments and news releases regarding this project.

And I hope to God, no one takes this issue to 60 Minutes. We will all be ruined if that happens. Talk about "coloring the issue" and untruths. They ruined more than the apple industry with the way they present things.

Oh my gosh, "60 Minutes". That is a terrible thought!!!!!!!! That would be nothing more than adding fuel to the fire and burning down the house.
 
A

Anonymous

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sw said:
OT,
we have formed a co-op that is to have Montana Branded Beef in the major stores in Montana in April. It will be labeled "Raised Right, from Montana Branded Beef Association." We are getting a contract with a packer, all of the cattle have to be source verified, and they will have to be raised, fed, and processed to our specs. NO mandatory nothing, we are trying to make the ranchers more money from a quality animal and capturing value from the animals that we raise, right into the meat counter. We will take in new members, I believe that we have around 50 right now that control something like 40,000 mother cows. We have not really advertised this yet, we will real soon. Wanted to get our ducks in a row first. I feel that I am privileged as they are processing some of our cattle next week, they will be some of the first to have the label. This is why I am not in favor of M-Cool, If you have a product that you are proud of, label it yourself, but you had better know what you are selling. We have been working on this for three years, I have been carcass testing for 12. Wish us luck. :)

Great idea- only question I have is will it be marketed in all areas of the country nationwide and what will the additional cost be?-- My daughter is a single parent mother and has a very limited income- can she afford to buy my grandkids hamburger or beef that she knows is from the US and she feels is of less risk than Canadian? I have no problem with branded programs- seen several come and go in our area, but they priced ($30 steaks and $5 a lb hamburger) themselves out of existence because of the limited quanitity of cattle they could handle, the small (very upperclass) regional areas they targeted and the distance to their markets.....
Personally I have always felt that many of the branded programs was a bourgeois concept, especially since the Canadian BSE issue-- let the rich buy safe US beef, but the peasants can take their chances.... From what I'm hearing from some in the courtroom, that was the feeling that Judge Cebull left them with too- some felt that if another injunction was filed, he or the courts would shut down the whole border imports until the products are labeled.....
 

TimH

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Oldtimer-"My daughter is a single parent mother and has a very limited income- can she afford to buy my grandkids hamburger or beef that she knows is from the US and she feels is of less risk than Canadian?"

OT, You really baffle me some days!!!! Isn't one of the main reasons for labelling US beef , the idea that it will bring a better price?????
Are you suggesting that consumers should not have to pay extra for source verified product??? If consumers don't pay the extra cost, just who will???? hint-(starts with "pro" and ends with "ducer")

You r-calfers are truely amazing!!!! :wink:
 

Tam

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Response; Uh, Tam.... our export markets being closed INCREASED the supply here. Higher supply generally decreases prices.... :D

Then why did you import 23% more beef if you had a increase in the supply? Because the US beef industry could cover the demand thats why.


Did you tell your friend that the infected imported cow was in your food chain and some of her could have been eaten as the FDA meat recall was less then 50% effective and that is why Japan is concerned?

Response; If I would of mentioned the Washington cow, shouldn't I of mentioned that we simply don't know how many Canadian beefs have entered prior to May, 2003
?

Maybe you should have also told him that you dont know how many US positive cattle have entered the US food chain undetected. As you seem to think your only problem is from Canada but if you believe R-CALF and the science we are using to protect our industry didn't work then you must also believe that same science didn't protect you. Therefore you do have BSE in the US and none of those animals have been detected yet.


Response; I don't think he would believe me if I told him we practice the three S's here in the US, but the Canadians do not. I did tell him that Creekstone's tests probably wouldn't find anything. He laughed and said, "So what's the deal? They get a test ran, you make a sale, everybody should be happy. I wish my customers were that easy to please".

All he would have to do is look at the number of 4D that the Canadian ranchers turned over compared to the actual targeted number to see that the Canada is testing the catagory of cattle at a higher percentage than that was recommended and that the US isn't and he can draw his own conclusion to see who is practicing the 3S's. The big deal is the cost of testing animals that will not show anything anyway. Even Japan agreed not to test the animals under twenty months but you would pay for that test I'm glad you have all kinds of money to pay for tests that won't prove anything.


Response; He asked me what the USDA stamp meant if it didn't mean the meat was from the US. I told him that it meant it had passed inspection to the USDA's standards. His reply, "Is it our guys or whatever countries guys?" I told him it was the other country's guys inspecting to our standards. He replied, "So what's stopping them from slapping that stamp on some crap and sending it to us - we just take their word for it?"

So could they also be slapping a stamp on US crap and pass it on would you friend know the different?

Response; I told him that he has no way of knowing where the last steak he bought came from unless he bought a branded beef product. He said,
"Branded sounds like I'm going to be paying for some advertising. Why can't I just pick it out of the pile like I do now.?" I told him the big packers don't want it that way so they can buy cheap foreign crap and pass it off as US. He laughed and said, "Brenda tried to cook a roast a few weeks ago and it had an off taste to it. I thought it was her cooking, but now I'm wondering where that beef came from - we probably got some el toro that Pedro in Mexico slapped a USDA stamp on."

I thought you said the US consumer would pay extra if they knew it was from the US but your friend doesn't seem to want to pay for a little advertizing for a branded beef product. So what makes you think he will want to pay for the cost of the cool label. Or does he think that label will be put there at no extra cost. And isn't the Cool label advertizing US beef just like the branded beef label.


Why? Suspect cattle don't go into the food supply now until they pass. Maybe I should tell him that we can't trust Stalin? :wink:

Suspect cattle don't in Canada's either, but R-CALF is still telling everyone not to eat our beef as it is not safe even though we have used the same science to protect us as you have.


When he called me and asked about what was going on, I knew I would get material for this board. I purposefully tried to be as nonbiased as I could with my explanations so I could get his response. Once I noted his responses, I told him that the big packers were behind most of our problems and that the USDA did most of their dirty work. He said, "Sounds like there is a lot of shenanigans going on at all of our expense. Shouldn't be hard to figure out, just check everybody's wallets"

So it is the packer that are not turning over their dead and die animals so the USDA can test them is it? and it is the packers that aren't complying to the feed bans that the USDA set. There is enough blame to go around and not one part of the industry has a right to blame another until they have stepped up to the plate and have done their part to clean up the BSE mess. When will you be calling the USDA and telling them about your 4D's?
 
A

Anonymous

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TimH said:
Oldtimer-"My daughter is a single parent mother and has a very limited income- can she afford to buy my grandkids hamburger or beef that she knows is from the US and she feels is of less risk than Canadian?"

OT, You really baffle me some days!!!! Isn't one of the main reasons for labelling US beef , the idea that it will bring a better price?????
Are you suggesting that consumers should not have to pay extra for source verified product??? If consumers don't pay the extra cost, just who will???? hint-(starts with "pro" and ends with "ducer")

You r-calfers are truely amazing!!!! :wink:

Lot cheaper to Country verify all beef than it will be to source verify small quantity's.....Right now I'm not concerned about which farm it came off of- just tell us what country it was born, raised and slaughtered in....
 

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