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Way to go Dubya! :- (

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aplusmnt said:
kolanuraven said:
The guys in the planes were Saudi.


Saddam & Saudi......... ' anything' didn't mesh.

It's not that easy to lump all under one name.

The guys in the planes were Muslim Radicals that hated America! That is all I need to know. I could care less what country they were born in or what country they were then residing in. They all had 2 common denominators. They were Muslim and Hated America.

The simples point of this whole war that the Liberals seem to miss is we have one enemy and that is Muslim Radicals. It is not one country that is our enemy but a collective view of certain Muslims that we are at war with. And Saddam was a leader of a country and expressed that collective view of America that got him a noose around his next.

I do not ponder on the question rather Saddam should have been removed I know that was the right thing to do, I only give thought to who is next in line. My vote goes to the President of Iran.



You better care because the form of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia is MORE ,MORE extreme than anything on the books. They are Wahabists.


OBL is Saudi & Wahabist....a double whammy.

By the way , where is OBL these days anyway? Wasn't GW supposed to nail his hide???

Funny how things get pushed to the back by the CONSERVATIVE media when things don't go their way!!!!!
 
kolanuraven said:
Funny how things get pushed to the back by the CONSERVATIVE media when things don't go their way!!!!!

Statements like this are the reason anything you say has no credibility.
 
Jinglebob said:
Tumbleweed said:
Jinglebob said:
:agree:

That would seem the sane way to wage war.

Your either for us or against us. There is no middle ground.


http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/thisiswar/

The link above is to pictures and stories of war. If you have a weak stomach don't click on this link. The pictures and stories are graphic.
I might have missed your point there Tumbleweed. If it was that war is not pretty, than I would agree. Go check out pictures of what was left of the twin towers after they came down. That was an act of war. they declared it.

People die all the time and people kill people all the time. Most of the time for pretty sorry reasons.

Read the bible. There was lots of wars and killings going on in the old testament. What they did to Jesus wasn't pretty.

Sometime you get to choose to die for a good reason. Sometimes you don't. In the end, we will all die.

If we are going to wage war, than go in with the attitude that we need to win and the way to win is to kill the enemy and if you ain't an ally than you are an enemy. Sadly, there are no non-combatents in a war zone. Innocents? Yes, but the innocent die all the time, every day.

Showing me pictures of dead and wounded people will not change my mind.

If our forefathers were afraid to fight battles we would either be under the thumb of England, Germany or Japan today. If we don't do something today, right now, we will be under the thumb of the Jihadist Muslems.

Don't even ask, if they come I'll fight. i would go over there if they would let me.

I had a son over there in that sand box, a neice and at least one nephew. They would all willingly go back. And may.

If you don't believe in this war or any war, just say so, don't beat around the bushes.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

I hate the fact that we need to be over there or that we have to fight any battles or wars, but you can only turn the other cheek so many times and run so far, then you have to fight or die. You of all people should know this.

If I misunderstood your posting, I apologies. I been kind'a cranky here lately. :wink:


Jinglebob I don't question you or your son's patriotism. The definition of patriotism for me is defined as a love of our families, a way of life, our community, our country and a willingness to defend them.

I believe the motivation for the 911 attack is pointed out in the 911 report and also by FBI and CIA agents. I believe the reason we are in the middle east is because they have oil and we need it. Not to free them from oppression or give them a democracy. I think Mohamad was a nut and he started a crazy violent religion that teaches his followers that if they can't convert a christian to their religion that it is ok to kill them. Because we need their oil we are in their country and we also meddle in their politics. When ever Israel kills some muslims we get blamed along with them because we arm them and back them up.

I think this fight is over oil because we have developed a lifestyle that depends on an abundant supply of it. That puts us in contact with the muslims in the mideast and that causes trouble. I'm not sure but I think I've read that sixty percent of the oil we import comes from the middle east. The reason I posted the link to those photos is there are a lot of old women, men and kids get caught in the crossfire because we need oil. I think we all need to be aware of it and maybe give some thought to it when we climb into a vehicle and go for a ride. I hear the argument that they attacked us because they hate our freedom and I don't believe it. If they hate us it's because of our religion and that we're in their country and they want us out.

I'm not anti war. If having access to that oil is necessary because it is a national security issue and we can't negotiate a deal with them to supply us then maybe the president should go to the congress and ask for a declaration of war. I believe that it is a national security issue and we shoudn't let china get control of the oil there.



Below is a quote from a news story that came about because of the presidential debate and Ron Paul and Rudy Giuliani disagreeing about the reason for the 911 attack. Ron Paul made a comment refering to the 911 commision report that Giuliani took issue with. I believe Ron Paul was right.


"The 9-11 Commission report detailed how bin Laden had, in 1996, issued "his self-styled fatwa calling on Muslims to drive American soldiers out of Saudi Arabia" and identified that declaration and another in 1998 as part of "a long series" of statements objecting to U.S. military interventions in his native Saudi Arabia in particular and the Middle East in general. Statements from bin Laden and those associated with him prior to 9-11 consistently expressed anger with the U.S. military presence on the Arabian Peninsula, U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people and U.S. support of Israel.
The 9-11 Commission based its assessments on testimony from experts on terrorism and the Middle East. Asked about the motivations of the terrorists, FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald told the commission: "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States."
Fitzgerald's was not a lonely voice in the intelligence community.
Michael Scheuer, the former Central Intelligence Agency specialist on bin Laden and al-Qaeda, has objected to simplistic suggestions by President Bush and others that terrorists are motivated by an ill-defined irrational hatred of the United States. "The politicians really are at great fault for not squaring with the American people," Scheuer said in a CNN interview. "We're being attacked for what we do in the Islamic world, not for who we are or what we believe in or how we live. And there's a huge burden of guilt to be laid at Mr. Bush, Mr. Clinton, both parties for simply lying to the American people."
 
Tumbleweed said:
Jinglebob said:
Tumbleweed said:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/thisiswar/

The link above is to pictures and stories of war. If you have a weak stomach don't click on this link. The pictures and stories are graphic.
I might have missed your point there Tumbleweed. If it was that war is not pretty, than I would agree. Go check out pictures of what was left of the twin towers after they came down. That was an act of war. they declared it.

People die all the time and people kill people all the time. Most of the time for pretty sorry reasons.

Read the bible. There was lots of wars and killings going on in the old testament. What they did to Jesus wasn't pretty.

Sometime you get to choose to die for a good reason. Sometimes you don't. In the end, we will all die.

If we are going to wage war, than go in with the attitude that we need to win and the way to win is to kill the enemy and if you ain't an ally than you are an enemy. Sadly, there are no non-combatents in a war zone. Innocents? Yes, but the innocent die all the time, every day.

Showing me pictures of dead and wounded people will not change my mind.

If our forefathers were afraid to fight battles we would either be under the thumb of England, Germany or Japan today. If we don't do something today, right now, we will be under the thumb of the Jihadist Muslems.

Don't even ask, if they come I'll fight. i would go over there if they would let me.

I had a son over there in that sand box, a neice and at least one nephew. They would all willingly go back. And may.

If you don't believe in this war or any war, just say so, don't beat around the bushes.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

I hate the fact that we need to be over there or that we have to fight any battles or wars, but you can only turn the other cheek so many times and run so far, then you have to fight or die. You of all people should know this.

If I misunderstood your posting, I apologies. I been kind'a cranky here lately. :wink:


Jinglebob I don't question you or your son's patriotism. The definition of patriotism for me is defined as a love of our families, a way of life, our community, our country and a willingness to defend them.

I believe the motivation for the 911 attack is pointed out in the 911 report and also by FBI and CIA agents. I believe the reason we are in the middle east is because they have oil and we need it. Not to free them from oppression or give them a democracy. I think Mohamad was a nut and he started a crazy violent religion that teaches his followers that if they can't convert a christian to their religion that it is ok to kill them. Because we need their oil we are in their country and we also meddle in their politics. When ever Israel kills some muslims we get blamed along with them because we arm them and back them up.

I think this fight is over oil because we have developed a lifestyle that depends on an abundant supply of it. That puts us in contact with the muslims in the mideast and that causes trouble. I'm not sure but I think I've read that sixty percent of the oil we import comes from the middle east. The reason I posted the link to those photos is there are a lot of old women, men and kids get caught in the crossfire because we need oil. I think we all need to be aware of it and maybe give some thought to it when we climb into a vehicle and go for a ride. I hear the argument that they attacked us because they hate our freedom and I don't believe it. If they hate us it's because of our religion and that we're in their country and they want us out.

I'm not anti war. If having access to that oil is necessary because it is a national security issue and we can't negotiate a deal with them to supply us then maybe the president should go to the congress and ask for a declaration of war. I believe that it is a national security issue and we shoudn't let china get control of the oil there.



Below is a quote from a news story that came about because of the presidential debate and Ron Paul and Rudy Giuliani disagreeing about the reason for the 911 attack. Ron Paul made a comment refering to the 911 commision report that Giuliani took issue with. I believe Ron Paul was right.


"The 9-11 Commission report detailed how bin Laden had, in 1996, issued "his self-styled fatwa calling on Muslims to drive American soldiers out of Saudi Arabia" and identified that declaration and another in 1998 as part of "a long series" of statements objecting to U.S. military interventions in his native Saudi Arabia in particular and the Middle East in general. Statements from bin Laden and those associated with him prior to 9-11 consistently expressed anger with the U.S. military presence on the Arabian Peninsula, U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people and U.S. support of Israel.
The 9-11 Commission based its assessments on testimony from experts on terrorism and the Middle East. Asked about the motivations of the terrorists, FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald told the commission: "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States."
Fitzgerald's was not a lonely voice in the intelligence community.
Michael Scheuer, the former Central Intelligence Agency specialist on bin Laden and al-Qaeda, has objected to simplistic suggestions by President Bush and others that terrorists are motivated by an ill-defined irrational hatred of the United States. "The politicians really are at great fault for not squaring with the American people," Scheuer said in a CNN interview. "We're being attacked for what we do in the Islamic world, not for who we are or what we believe in or how we live. And there's a huge burden of guilt to be laid at Mr. Bush, Mr. Clinton, both parties for simply lying to the American people."

Tumbleweed, If we are in there for the oil then why are we not having it trasported THEN AND NOW to the USA?

Last time I checked we were not getting very much oil from Saudi, or Iraq or any of them countries!
Seems like Canada and Mexico are suppliing over 90% of the oil the USA is using?
This argument has been tossed around for so long it is becoming old, The cost of shipping the oil from Iraq, Saudi, and the rest of them would make the price of fuel here in the states at over $7.00 a gallon.
 
quickdraw I believe you are right that we do import the most oil from canada and mexico but we also import a large amount from Iraq. Although the article below was written in 2002 I believe it points out pretty well what this fight in Iraq is about. The reserves in Iraq are thought to be huge and everyone wants control of them.


Iraq: the Struggle for Oil
By James A. Paul
Executive Director, Global Policy Forum
August, 2002 (revised December, 2002)


Iraq possesses the world's second largest proven oil reserves, currently estimated at 112.5 billion barrels, about 11% of the world total and its gas fields are immense as well. Many experts believe that Iraq has additional undiscovered oil reserves, which might raise the total well beyond 250 billion barrels when serious prospecting resumes, putting Iraq closer to Saudi Arabia and far above all other oil producing countries. Iraq's oil is of high quality and it is very inexpensive to produce, making it one of the world's most profitable oil sources. Oil companies hope to gain production rights over these rich fields of Iraqi oil, worth hundreds of billions of dollars. In the view of an industry source it is "a boom waiting to happen."(1) As rising world demand depletes reserves in most world regions over the next 10-15 years, Iraq's oil will gain increasing importance in global energy supplies. According to the industry expert: "There is not an oil company in the world that doesn't have its eye on Iraq."(2) Geopolitical rivalry among major nations throughout the past century has often turned on control of such key oil resources.(3)

Five companies dominate the world oil industry, two US-based, two primarily UK-based, and one primarily based in France.(4) US-based Exxon Mobil looms largest among the world's oil companies and by some yardsticks measures as the world's biggest company.(5) The United States consequently ranks first in the corporate oil sector, with the UK second and France trailing as a distant third. Considering that the US and the UK act almost alone as sanctions enforcers (and as advocates of war against Iraq), and that they are the headquarters of the world's four largest oil companies, we cannot ignore the possible relationship of their policy with this powerful corporate interest.

US and UK companies long held a three-quarter share in Iraq's oil production, but they lost their position with the 1972 nationalization of the Iraq Petroleum Company.(6) The nationalization, following ten years of increasingly rancorous relations between the companies and the government, rocked the international oil industry, as Iraq sought to gain greater control of its oil resources. After the nationalization, Iraq turned to French companies and the Russian (Soviet) government for funds and partnerships.(7) Today, the US and UK companies are very keen to regain their former position, which they see as critical to their future leading role in the world oil industry. The US and the UK governments also see control over Iraqi and Gulf oil as essential to their broader military, geo-strategic and economic interests. At the same time, though, other states and oil companies hope to gain a large or even dominant position in Iraq. As de-nationalization sweeps through the oil sector, international companies see Iraq as an extremely attractive potential field of expansion. France and Russia, the longstanding insiders, pose the biggest challenge to future Anglo-American domination, but serious competitors from China, Germany and Japan also play in the Iraq sweepstakes.(8)

During the 1990s, Russia's Lukoil, China National Petroleum Corporation and France's TotalFinaElf held contract talks with the government of Iraq over plans to develop Iraqi fields as soon as sanctions are lifted. Lukoil reached an agreement in 1997 to develop Iraq's West Qurna field, while China National signed an agreement for the North Rumailah field in the same year (China's oil import needs from the Persian Gulf will grow from 0.5 million barrels per day in 1997 to 5.5 million barrels per day in 2020, making China one of the region's most important customers).(9) France's Total at the same time held talks for future development of the fabulous Majnun field.

US and UK companies have been very concerned that their rivals might gain a major long-term advantage in the global oil business. "Iraq possesses huge reserves of oil and gas – reserves I'd love Chevron to have access to," enthused Chevron CEO Kenneth T. Derr in a 1998 speech at the Commonwealth Club of San Francisco, in which he pronounced his strong support for sanctions.(10) Sanctions have kept the rivals at bay, a clear advantage. US-UK companies hope that the regime will eventually collapse, giving them a strong edge over their competitors with a post-Saddam government. As the embargo weakened and Saddam held onto power, however, stakes in the rivalry rose, for US-UK companies worried that they might eventually be shouldered aside. Direct military intervention by the US-UK, then, offers a tempting but dangerous gamble that might put Exxon, Shell, BP and Chevron in immediate control of the Iraqi oil boom, but at the risk of backlash from a regional political explosion.

In testimony to Congress in 1999, General Anthony C.Zinni, commander in chief of the US Central Command, testified that the Gulf Region, with its huge oil reserves, is a "vital interest" of "long standing" for the United States and that the US "must have free access to the region's resources."(11) "Free access," it seems, means both military and economic control of these resources. This has been a major goal of US strategic doctrine ever since the end of World War II. Prior to 1971, Britain (the former colonial power) policed the region and its oil riches. Since then, the United States has deployed ever-larger military forces to assure "free access" through overwhelming armed might.(12)

A looming US war against Iraq is only comprehensible in this light. For all the talk about terrorism, weapons of mass destruction and human rights violations by Saddam Hussein, these are not the core issues driving US policy. Rather, it is "free access" to Iraqi oil and the ultimate control over that oil by US and UK companies that raises the stakes high enough to set US forces on the move and risk the stakes of global empire.
 
Tumbleweed i agree to a point about the mineral reserves mentioned in your post, however I do not believe the ONLY reason we are in Iraq or the Middle east is because of the oil.
I truly believe that there is a serious threat to my freedom as well as yours by these fanatics that hate just to hate, and that these very fanatics
are finaced and protected by those very people who control the oil in the middle east.

Is It All About Oil?

The Iraq War as a Grab for Mineral Wealth

By: Dr. Sam Vaknin




March 17, 2003

If the looming war was all about oil, Iraq would be invaded by the European Union, or Japan - whose dependence on Middle Eastern oil is far greater than the United States'. The USA would have, probably, taken over Venezuela, a much larger and proximate supplier with its own emerging tyrant to boot.

At any rate, the USA refrained from occupying Iraq when it easily could have, in 1991. Why the current American determination to conquer the desert country and subject it to direct rule, at least initially?

There is another explanation, insist keen-eyed analysts.

September 11 shredded the American sense of invulnerability. That the hijackers were all citizens of ostensible allies - such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia - exposed the tenuous and ephemeral status of US forces in the Gulf. So, is the war about transporting American military presence from increasingly hostile Saudis to soon-to-be subjugated Iraqis?

But this is a tautology. If America's reliance on Middle Eastern oil is non-existent - why would it want to risk lives and squander resources in the region at all? Why would it drive up the price of oil it consumes with its belligerent talk and coalition-building? Why would it fritter away the unprecedented upswell of goodwill that followed the atrocities in September 2001?

Back to oil. According to British Petroleum's Statistical Review of World Energy 2002, the United States voraciously - and wastefully - consumes one of every four barrels extracted worldwide. It imports about three fifths of its needs. In less than eleven years' time, its reserves depleted, it will be forced to import all of its soaring requirements.

Middle Eastern oil accounts for one quarter of America's imports. Iraqi crude for less than one tenth. A back of the envelope calculation reveals that Iraq quenches less than 6 percent of America's Black Gold cravings. Compared to Canada (15 percent of American oil imports), or Mexico (12 percent) - Iraq is a negligible supplier. Furthermore, the current oil production of the USA is merely 23 percent of its 1985 peak - about 2.4 million barrels per day, a 50-years nadir.

During the first eleven months of 2002, the United States imported an average of 449,000 barrels per day (bbl/d) from Iraq. In January 2003, with Venezuela in disarray, approximately 1.2 million bbl/d of Iraqi oil went to the Americas (up from 910,000 bbl/d in December 2002 and 515,000 bbl/d in November).

It would seem that $200 billion - the costs of war and postbellum reconstruction - would be better spent on America's domestic oil industry. Securing the flow of Iraqi crude is simply too insignificant to warrant such an exertion.

Much is made of Iraq's known oil reserves, pegged by the Department of Energy at 112 billion barrels, or five times the United States' - not to mention its 110 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. Even at 3 million barrels per day - said to be the realistically immediate target of the occupying forces and almost 50 percent above the current level - this subterranean stash stands to last for more than a century.

Add to that the proven reserves of its neighbors - Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates - and there is no question that the oil industry of these countries will far outlive their competitors'. Couldn't this be what the rapacious Americans are after? - wonder genteel French and Russian oilmen. After all, British and American companies controlled three quarters of Iraq's mineral wealth until 1972 when nationalization denuded them.

Alas, this "explanation" equally deflates upon closer inspection. Known - or imagined - reserves require investments in exploration, development and drilling. Nine tenths of Iraq's soil are unexplored, including up to 100 billion barrels of deep oil-bearing formations located mainly in the vast Western Desert. Of the 73 fields discovered - only 15 have been developed. Iraq's Oil Minister, Amir Rashid, admitted in early 2002 that only 24 Iraqi oil fields were producing.

The country has almost no deep wells, preponderant in Iran, for instance. Though the cost of production is around $1-1.5 per barrel, one tenth the cost elsewhere - while Texas boasts 1,000,000 drilled wells, Iraq barely sports 2000. The Department of Energy's report about Iraq concludes:

"Iraq generally has not had access to the latest, state-of-the-art oil industry technology (i.e., 3D seismic), sufficient spare parts, and investment in general throughout most of the 1990s, but has instead reportedly been utilizing questionable engineering techniques (i.e., overpumping, water injection/"flooding") and old technology to maintain production."

The quality of Iraqi oil deteriorated considerably in the recent decade. Its average API gravity declined by more than 10 percent, its water cut (intrusion of water into oil reservoirs) increased and its sulfur content shot up by one third. The fields date back to the 1920s and 1930s and were subjected to abusive methods of extraction. Thus, if torched during a Gotterdammerung - they may well be abandoned altogether.

According to a report published by the United Nations two years ago, Iraqi oil production is poised to fall off a cliff unless billions are invested in addressing technical and infrastructural problems. Even destitute Iraq forks out $1.2 billion annually on repairing oil facilities.

The Council of Foreign Relations and the Baker Institute estimated, in December last year, that the "costs of repairing existing oil export installations alone would be around $5 billion, while restoring Iraqi oil production to pre-1990 levels would cost an additional $5 billion, plus $3 billion per year in annual operating costs".

Not to mention the legal quagmire created by the plethora of agreements signed by the soon to be deposed regime with European, Indian, Turkish and Chinese oil behemoths. It would be years before Iraqi crude in meaningful quantities hits the markets and then only after tens of billions of dollars have been literally sunk into the ground. Not a very convincing business plan.

Conspiracy theorists dismiss such contravening facts impatiently. While the costs, they expound wearily, will accrue to the American taxpayer, the benefits will be reaped by the oil giants, the true sponsors of president Bush, his father, his vice-president and his secretary of defense. In short, the battle in Iraq has been spun by a cabal of sinister white males out to attain self-enrichment through the spoils of war.

The case for the prosecution is that, cornered by plummeting prices, the oil industry in America had spent the last ten years defensively merging and acquiring in a frantic pace. America's twenty-two major energy companies reported overall net income of a mere $7 billion on revenues of $141 billion during the second quarter of last year. Only forty five percent of their profits resulted from domestic upstream oil and natural gas production operations.

Tellingly, foreign upstream oil and natural gas production operations yielded two fifths of net income and worldwide downstream natural gas and power operations made up the rest. Stagnant domestic refining capacity forces US firms to joint venture with outsiders to refine and market products.

Moreover, according to the energy consultancy, John S. Herold, replacement costs - of finding new reserves - have soared in 2001 to above $5 per barrel. Except in the Gulf where oil is sometimes just 600 meters deep and swathes of land are immersed in it. In short: American oil majors are looking abroad for their long-term survival. Iraq always featured high on their list.

This stratagem was subverted by the affaire between Saddam Hussein and non-American oil companies. American players shudder at the thought of being excluded from Iraq by Saddam and his semipternal dynasty and thus rendered second-tier participants.

According to the conspiracy minded, they coaxed the White House first to apply sanctions to the country in order to freeze its growing amity with foreign competitors - and, now, to retake by force that which was confiscated from them by law. Development and production contracts with Russian and French companies, signed by Saddam Hussein's regime, are likely to be "reviewed" - i.e., scrapped altogether - by whomever rules over Baghdad next.

An added bonus: the demise of OPEC. A USA in control of the Iraqi spigot can break the back of any oil cartel and hold sway over impertinent and obdurate polities such as France. How would the ensuing plunge in prices help the alleged instigators of the war - the oil mafia - remains unclear. Still, James Paul propounded the following exercise in the Global Policy Forum this past December:

"(Assuming) the level of Iraqi reserves at 250 billion barrels and recovery rates at 50% (both very conservative estimates). Under those conditions, recoverable Iraqi oil would be worth altogether about $3.125 trillion. Assuming production costs of $1.50 a barrel (a high-end figure), total costs would be $188 billion, leaving a balance of $2.937 trillion as the difference between costs and sales revenues. Assuming a 50/50 split with the government and further assuming a production period of 50 years, the company profits per year would run to $29 billion. That huge sum is two-thirds of the $44 billion total profits earned by the world's five major oil companies combined in 2001. If higher assumptions are used, annual profits might soar to as much as $50 billion per year."

The energy behemoths on both sides of the pond are not oblivious to this bonanza. The Financial Times reported a flurry of meetings in recent days between British Petroleum and Shell and Downing Street and Whitehall functionaries. Senior figures in the ramshackle exile Iraqi National Congress opposition have been openly consorting with American oil leviathans and expressly promising to hand postwar production exclusively to them.

But the question is: even if true, so what? What war in human history was not partly motivated by a desire for plunder? What occupier did not seek to commercially leverage its temporary monopoly on power? When were moral causes utterly divorced from realpolitik?

Granted, there is a thin line separating investment from exploitation, order from tyranny, vision from fantasy. The United States should - having disposed of the murderous Saddam Hussein and his coterie - establish a level playing field and refrain from giving Iraq a raw deal.

It should use this tormented country's natural endowments to reconstruct it and make it flourish. It should encourage good governance, including transparent procurement and international tendering and invite the United Nations to oversee Iraq's reconstruction. It should induce other countries of the world to view Iraq as a preferred destination of foreign direct investment and trade.

If, in the process, reasonable profits accrue to business - all for the better. Only the global private sector can guarantee the long-term prosperity of Iraq. Many judge the future conduct of the USA on the basis of speculative scenarios and fears that it is on the verge of attaining global dominance by way of ruthlessly applying its military might. This may well be so. But to judge it on this flimsy basis alone is to render verdict both prematurely and unjustly.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Mike said:
kolanuraven said:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/11/al.qaeda.report/index.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289028,00.html

Ok....the bad guys are as strong as they were @ 9-11.

Translation......all this money and blood has accomplished ZIP...NADA...NUTHIN'!!!!!!

We're right back @ square one!!!


Way to go Dubya!!!

This is all the fault of the Libs. They give Al Qaeda fodder and the will for fighting everytime they open their mouth.

If everyone in the world would unite on fighting terrorism this thing would end sooner than later.

Be ashamed. :mad:
How in the hell can you place the blame on the liberals? If it is all the fault of the liberals, there wouldn't be a right wing as 73% of this entire country is against this war! The blame, if any is to be placed, should be placed on a bunch of empire builders named "Project for a new American Century" and a less than brilliant president who was unduly influenced by this bunch of goons. These same men tried to get Clinton to do this but he refused but bush fell for it. Iraq had NEVER had a suicide bomber until after we got there. Do you need a bigger drawing to understand this? We are only there to try to protect our interests and our interest is OIL!! al Qaeda and the Taliban are stronger than ever with a whole new group of zealots willing to follow where the crackpot leaders take them. We don't have enough soldiers on the ground--or even in the military--to successfully qwell them. Open your eyes!!
 
schnurrbart said:
Mike said:
kolanuraven said:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/11/al.qaeda.report/index.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289028,00.html

Ok....the bad guys are as strong as they were @ 9-11.

Translation......all this money and blood has accomplished ZIP...NADA...NUTHIN'!!!!!!

We're right back @ square one!!!


Way to go Dubya!!!

This is all the fault of the Libs. They give Al Qaeda fodder and the will for fighting everytime they open their mouth.

If everyone in the world would unite on fighting terrorism this thing would end sooner than later.

Be ashamed. :mad:
How in the hell can you place the blame on the liberals? If it is all the fault of the liberals, there wouldn't be a right wing as 73% of this entire country is against this war! The blame, if any is to be placed, should be placed on a bunch of empire builders named "Project for a new American Century" and a less than brilliant president who was unduly influenced by this bunch of goons. These same men tried to get Clinton to do this but he refused but bush fell for it. Iraq had NEVER had a suicide bomber until after we got there. Do you need a bigger drawing to understand this? We are only there to try to protect our interests and our interest is OIL!! al Qaeda and the Taliban are stronger than ever with a whole new group of zealots willing to follow where the crackpot leaders take them. We don't have enough soldiers on the ground--or even in the military--to successfully qwell them. Open your eyes!!

Don't know where your 73% comes from. The news this a.m. gave a different view.

We have been using oil for well over 100 years. You are describing it as something that had just been discovered.

No. We don't need a bigger picture, unless you get someone in the know to draw it for us.
 
backhoeboogie said:
schnurrbart said:
Mike said:
This is all the fault of the Libs. They give Al Qaeda fodder and the will for fighting everytime they open their mouth.

If everyone in the world would unite on fighting terrorism this thing would end sooner than later.

Be ashamed. :mad:
How in the hell can you place the blame on the liberals? If it is all the fault of the liberals, there wouldn't be a right wing as 73% of this entire country is against this war! The blame, if any is to be placed, should be placed on a bunch of empire builders named "Project for a new American Century" and a less than brilliant president who was unduly influenced by this bunch of goons. These same men tried to get Clinton to do this but he refused but bush fell for it. Iraq had NEVER had a suicide bomber until after we got there. Do you need a bigger drawing to understand this? We are only there to try to protect our interests and our interest is OIL!! al Qaeda and the Taliban are stronger than ever with a whole new group of zealots willing to follow where the crackpot leaders take them. We don't have enough soldiers on the ground--or even in the military--to successfully qwell them. Open your eyes!!

Don't know where your 73% comes from. The news this a.m. gave a different view.

We have been using oil for well over 100 years. You are describing it as something that had just been discovered.

No. We don't need a bigger picture, unless you get someone in the know to draw it for us.



As any parent of any soldier who died....I'm sure they'd be happy to draw you a picture of the childs gravestone!
 
We are only there to try to protect our interests and our interest is OIL!!

The same goes for the reason we got in a war with Japan in WWII. :lol:

Try going without oil usage for one day, then come back and whine about it......................................
 
backhoeboogie said:
schnurrbart said:
How in the hell can you place the blame on the liberals? If it is all the fault of the liberals, there wouldn't be a right wing as 73% of this entire country is against this war! The blame, if any is to be placed, should be placed on a bunch of empire builders named "Project for a new American Century" and a less than brilliant president who was unduly influenced by this bunch of goons. These same men tried to get Clinton to do this but he refused but bush fell for it. Iraq had NEVER had a suicide bomber until after we got there. Do you need a bigger drawing to understand this? We are only there to try to protect our interests and our interest is OIL!! al Qaeda and the Taliban are stronger than ever with a whole new group of zealots willing to follow where the crackpot leaders take them. We don't have enough soldiers on the ground--or even in the military--to successfully qwell them. Open your eyes!!

Don't know where your 73% comes from. The news this a.m. gave a different view.

.

Survey of 1,200 Likely Voters
July 13-15, 2007

Is it possible for the U.S. to win the War in Iraq?

Yes
32%

No
54%

Should we wait until September before making major policy changes in Iraq?

Yes
51%

No
38%



51% Say Wait Till September for Iraq Policy Change
Monday, July 16, 2007
Advertisment
Fifty-one percent (51%) of American voters say that the United States should wait for the September progress report before making major policy changes in Iraq. A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 38% disagree.

At the same time, however, just 32% of voters believe that it is possible for the United States to win the war in Iraq. Fifty-four percent (54%) say it is not possible while 13% are not sure.

Also, 53% would like the Senate to join the House of Representatives and pass legislation requiring a troop withdrawal to begin in 120 days. Thirty-seven percent (37%) are opposed.

Iraq remains the top issue before the nation--92% of voters say they are following the issue closely. Fifty-five percent (55%) know a friend or family member who is currently in Iraq.

A separate survey found that just 19% of voters consider the troop surge a success.

All questions on the war reflect huge gender and partisan gaps.

By a 73% to 21% margin, Republicans say that the U.S. should wait for the September progress report before making major policy changes in Iraq. Democrats, by a 50% to 36% margin, disagree. Those not affiliated with either major party are more evenly divided—49% want to wait and 42% don't. Fifty-seven percent (57%) of men want to wait along with 47% of women.

Fifty-five percent (55%) of Republicans believe it is possible to win the war. Thirty percent (30%) of unaffiliateds share that view along with just 16% of Democrats. Forty-one percent (41%) of men believe it is possible for the U.S. to win. Just 25% of women share that optimism.

In terms of the legislation to begin withdrawing troops, women support it by a 2-to-1 margin while men are evenly divided. Democrats support it by a 72% to 16% margin. Republicans are opposed 63% to 27%. Those not affiliated with either major party favor the troop withdrawal legislation by a 55% to 36% margin.

Voters continue to trust Democrats more than Republicans when it comes to the War on Iraq.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/51_say_wait_till_september_for_iraq_policy_change
 
Thanks old timer. Your numbers (or the numbers you cited) are in line with what I have been hearing and reading.
 
backhoeboogie said:
schnurrbart said:
Mike said:
This is all the fault of the Libs. They give Al Qaeda fodder and the will for fighting everytime they open their mouth.

If everyone in the world would unite on fighting terrorism this thing would end sooner than later.

Be ashamed. :mad:
How in the hell can you place the blame on the liberals? If it is all the fault of the liberals, there wouldn't be a right wing as 73% of this entire country is against this war! The blame, if any is to be placed, should be placed on a bunch of empire builders named "Project for a new American Century" and a less than brilliant president who was unduly influenced by this bunch of goons. These same men tried to get Clinton to do this but he refused but bush fell for it. Iraq had NEVER had a suicide bomber until after we got there. Do you need a bigger drawing to understand this? We are only there to try to protect our interests and our interest is OIL!! al Qaeda and the Taliban are stronger than ever with a whole new group of zealots willing to follow where the crackpot leaders take them. We don't have enough soldiers on the ground--or even in the military--to successfully qwell them. Open your eyes!!

Don't know where your 73% comes from. The news this a.m. gave a different view.

We have been using oil for well over 100 years. You are describing it as something that had just been discovered.

No. We don't need a bigger picture, unless you get someone in the know to draw it for us.

The 73% came from a week or so ago. This week it had changed to in the 60s. Here is a pretty comprehensive look at the numbers. Regardless of exactly what the numbers are, they all seem to say that the American public is AGAINST our troops being there. Read the polls all the way to the end.

www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
 
schnurrbart said:
The 73% came from a week or so ago. This week it had changed to in the 60s. Here is a pretty comprehensive look at the numbers. Regardless of exactly what the numbers are, they all seem to say that the American public is AGAINST our troops being there. Read the polls all the way to the end.

www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

Thank you for the clarificatin and link to source.

It is not so much that I personally am AGAINST the war, it is more of a feeling that we have lost the war in Washington and not in Iraq. Currently, Washington will not let us do what needs to be done.
 
Mike said:
We are only there to try to protect our interests and our interest is OIL!!

The same goes for the reason we got in a war with Japan in WWII. :lol:

Try going without oil usage for one day, then come back and whine about it......................................

I don't have any idea of how old you are but you surely didn't get much history in school. Japan doesn't have any oil supply that we use--then or now. We got into the war with Japan and a few days later with Germany because Japan attacked us and Germany declared war on us because the two nations were allies. We had interests in the far east for sure but we DIDN'T go to war to protect them. BTW, Iraq DIDN'T attack us. I go without oil a lot because it costs so much now. The money spent building empires would be better spent finding alternative renewable energy sources IMHO!
 
No matter how many hybrid cars , or this or that ....you can't do with oil. As nasty , dirty and deadly as it may be...it's here to stay!


If that were so....your computer would be made of wood as plastic, etc is a petro linked product.
 

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