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Well, what do you know? Can there be justice after all?

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Faster horses

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The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee on Wednesday voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress despite a last-minute intervention by President Obama.

By a vote of 23 to 17 after nearly six hours of tense discussion, the bipartisan committee voted for contempt over the Justice Department's decision to withhold documents related to Operation Fast and Furious that were subpoenaed by the committee in their investigation of the failed gunwalking operation.

The votes were sharply divided along partisan lines with all Republicans voting for and all Democrats voting against contempt. The measure now moves to the full House for a vote.

Moments before the hearing, Holder, who was not present at the hearing, delivered a letter to committee chair Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) informing the committee that Obama exerted executive privilege to withhold the documents in question.

"Although we are deeply disappointed that the Committee appears intent on proceeding with a contempt vote, the Department remains willing to work with the Committee to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution of the outstanding issues," Deputy Attorney General James Cole wrote in a letter to Issa.

But the president's intervention did not stop Issa from proceeding with Wednesday's vote.

"This untimely assertion by the Justice Department falls short of any reason to delay today's proceedings," Issa said prior to the vote.

Many committee members Wednesday invoked the name of Brian Terry, a border patrol agent killed in Dec. 2010. At the scene of that crime, guns sold in the Fast and Furious operation were recovered. The operation overall was designed to track firearm sales from the United States to Mexican drug cartels, but the government lost track of a majority of the guns sold in the operation.

"Remember the promises that were made in this room to Terry's family. We would not rest until we got to the bottom of this," Rep. Blake Farenthold (R-Tex.) said Wednesday.

"Have the guts, I hope we have the guts and the perseverance to get to the bottom of this," Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah) said, encouraging the government to help get to the bottom of why Fast and Furious failed. "It's not about Attorney General Eric Holder, it's about the Justice Department and justice in America," he added, invoking Terry's name.

Just prior to the vote, Rep. Ann Marie Buerkle (R-N.Y.) read a statement released by Terry's family, which read, in part:


For more than 18 months we have been asking our federal government for justice and accountability. The documents sought by the House Oversight Committee and associated with Operation Fast and Furious should be produced and turned over to the committee. Our son lost his life protecting this nation, and it is very disappointing that we are now faced with an administration that seems more concerned with protecting themselves rather than revealing the truth behind Operation Fast and Furious.

Republicans in Congress have been leading the push to find out what the government knew about the operation and when and why the effort failed.

Issa and Holder met Tuesday night under the auspices of reaching an agreement that would potentially delay the contempt vote. But following the meeting, Issa said Holder merely confirmed the Justice Department would not be delivering the documents and that the vote would proceed as scheduled.

Holder accused Issa of playing politics.

"Given the extraordinary nature of the offer that we made and given the extraordinary way in which we have shared materials to date that I think we are actually involved more in political gamesmanship as opposed to trying to get the information they say they want," Holder said.

Discussion of Holder's contempt vote was sharply divided along partisan lines on the bipartisan committee Wednesday. Ranking Rep. Elijah Cummings of Maryland (D), defended Holder prior to the vote and accused Issa of refusing to compromise. "It seems to me you had no interest of resolving this issue," Cummings said to Issa.

Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.) said she was "offended personally" by Issa calling Holder a liar. "It's disrespectful," Maloney said. "Where have we degenerated to?" Maloney defended Holder, saying he is "prohibited by law from producing" the documents in question.

"I want to apologize to the American people for yet another show of 'gotcha politics' in this body," Rep. Jackie Speier (D-Calif.) stated.

But Republicans strongly disagreed.

"Thus far, the cooperation has not been forthcoming," Issa said of the Justice Department. "We and the American people need answers sooner, not later."

"Mr. Holder is either not telling the truth or he's grossly incompetent," Rep. Raul Labrador (R-Idaho) said Wednesday. Labrador once again called for Holder's resignation.

House Speaker John Boehner and Majority Leader Eric Cantor announced following Wednesday's vote that they plan schedule the full House vote for the week of June 25.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/committee-votes-hold-eric-holder-contempt-over-fast-202646073.html
 
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Anonymous

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Yep- all the Bubba's and Billy Bobs are hoping Holder can be stalled from anymore investigations or in the worst scenerio have to release all reports/info which would include the names of all confidential informants and undercover informants and/or agents...Which would mean their lifespan would be measureable in hours or days-- and no one would ever cooperate with Law Enforcement again on illegal gun cases--- so these Bubba's and their cousins can continue to profiteer off illegally selling guns to Mexico...

The Repub party that used to be the law and order party is now in the hands of wingnuts that oppose enforcement of any gun laws- no matter if it means thousands of people die in Mexico or along the border... :(
 

loomixguy

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Oldtimer said:
Yep- all the Bubba's and Billy Bobs are hoping Holder can be stalled from anymore investigations or in the worst scenerio have to release all reports/info which would include the names of all confidential informants and undercover informants and/or agents...Which would mean their lifespan would be measureable in hours or days-- and no one would ever cooperate with Law Enforcement again on illegal gun cases--- so these Bubba's and their cousins can continue to profiteer off illegally selling guns to Mexico...

The Repub party that used to be the law and order party is now in the hands of wingnuts that oppose enforcement of any gun laws- no matter if it means thousands of people die in Mexico or along the border... :(

You, sir, are sickeningly full of ****!
 

Mike

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loomixguy said:
Oldtimer said:
Yep- all the Bubba's and Billy Bobs are hoping Holder can be stalled from anymore investigations or in the worst scenerio have to release all reports/info which would include the names of all confidential informants and undercover informants and/or agents...Which would mean their lifespan would be measureable in hours or days-- and no one would ever cooperate with Law Enforcement again on illegal gun cases--- so these Bubba's and their cousins can continue to profiteer off illegally selling guns to Mexico...

The Repub party that used to be the law and order party is now in the hands of wingnuts that oppose enforcement of any gun laws- no matter if it means thousands of people die in Mexico or along the border... :(

You, sir, are sickeningly full of s***!

I would thoroughly enjoy slapping the taste out of his mouth......
 

hypocritexposer

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Oldtimer said:
Yep- all the Bubba's and Billy Bobs are hoping Holder can be stalled from anymore investigations or in the worst scenerio have to release all reports/info which would include the names of all confidential informants and undercover informants and/or agents...Which would mean their lifespan would be measureable in hours or days-- and no one would ever cooperate with Law Enforcement again on illegal gun cases--- so these Bubba's and their cousins can continue to profiteer off illegally selling guns to Mexico...

The Repub party that used to be the law and order party is now in the hands of wingnuts that oppose enforcement of any gun laws- no matter if it means thousands of people die in Mexico or along the border... :(


Oldtimer said:
Her refusal now to cooperate- and her ordering her staff not to cooperate reeks of the same "we are above the law" that people are so fed up with involving the Bush regime.....


Oldtimer said:
Smells just like the past 7 1/2 stinky years of secrecy, obstructionism, and usurption of the rule of law we had in the White House that so many folks are tired of....


Oldtimer said:
And King Georges kingdom continues to unravel.... :)

U.S. Judge: White House Aides Can Be Subpoenaed

Thursday, July 31, 2008 11:16 AM


Oldtimer said:
I can't believe that any conservative can sit there and defend the actions of GW- and how he has tore apart the Constitution and caused a Constitutional crisis involving Congress's duty (shall) of oversight over the Administrative branch- knowing that if these are allowed to stand- they will set precedent in law- which will then be powers that can/will be used by future Presidents-- many of which may not be of their Party....

Do you want Obama to assume all these powers on Jan 20th :???:



Oldtimer said:
WHO HIRED/APPOINTED ALL THESE LYING WORTHLESS SOB'S :???: :wink:
 

cowman52

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And picking which laws you defend and those you disobey, that is a smart sob who thinks he is above all :mad: :mad:
 
A

Anonymous

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hypocritexposer said:
Oldtimer said:
Yep- all the Bubba's and Billy Bobs are hoping Holder can be stalled from anymore investigations or in the worst scenerio have to release all reports/info which would include the names of all confidential informants and undercover informants and/or agents...Which would mean their lifespan would be measureable in hours or days-- and no one would ever cooperate with Law Enforcement again on illegal gun cases--- so these Bubba's and their cousins can continue to profiteer off illegally selling guns to Mexico...

The Repub party that used to be the law and order party is now in the hands of wingnuts that oppose enforcement of any gun laws- no matter if it means thousands of people die in Mexico or along the border... :(


Oldtimer said:
Her refusal now to cooperate- and her ordering her staff not to cooperate reeks of the same "we are above the law" that people are so fed up with involving the Bush regime.....


Oldtimer said:
Smells just like the past 7 1/2 stinky years of secrecy, obstructionism, and usurption of the rule of law we had in the White House that so many folks are tired of....


Oldtimer said:
And King Georges kingdom continues to unravel.... :)

U.S. Judge: White House Aides Can Be Subpoenaed

Thursday, July 31, 2008 11:16 AM


Oldtimer said:
I can't believe that any conservative can sit there and defend the actions of GW- and how he has tore apart the Constitution and caused a Constitutional crisis involving Congress's duty (shall) of oversight over the Administrative branch- knowing that if these are allowed to stand- they will set precedent in law- which will then be powers that can/will be used by future Presidents-- many of which may not be of their Party....

Do you want Obama to assume all these powers on Jan 20th :???:



Oldtimer said:
WHO HIRED/APPOINTED ALL THESE LYING WORTHLESS SOB'S :???: :wink:

Hypocrit-- how many of the 4 times when GW cited executive privilege involved a law enforcement issue and protecting the names/lives of informants/undercover operatives?

While I normally do not like anyone citing executive privilege- I do understand law enforcements right to do so to protect informants and agents....We don't know- but they could have people deep undercover that have been there for years--Remember- GW's administration did a mirror image type of operation and could have people in deep cover then....
I would give up a case and a conviction- rather than give up a confidential informant that you had promised anonymity to... Its a matter of honor and keeping trust - altho I doubt you would understand that....

And as I said then- once you put a new tool (precedent) in the Presidential Toolbox, without challenging it-- you've just gave that tool to every President from then on...
 

Faster horses

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As if Obama hasn't already leaked classified information and let names
out as he did with the Navy Seals.

You just can't help but defend your hero, can you OT.

Something stinks about them not releasing the documents
and they haven't mentioned, as you did, about putting people's
lives in danger. And for that matter, what about the poor parents
of Officer Terry?

Wasn't it 2500 guns they let walk, and then lied about it from
the start... :mad:

Far as I'm concerned the DOJ needs removed from their dirty duties.
 

hypocritexposer

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Oldtimer said:
hypocritexposer said:
Oldtimer said:
Yep- all the Bubba's and Billy Bobs are hoping Holder can be stalled from anymore investigations or in the worst scenerio have to release all reports/info which would include the names of all confidential informants and undercover informants and/or agents...Which would mean their lifespan would be measureable in hours or days-- and no one would ever cooperate with Law Enforcement again on illegal gun cases--- so these Bubba's and their cousins can continue to profiteer off illegally selling guns to Mexico...

The Repub party that used to be the law and order party is now in the hands of wingnuts that oppose enforcement of any gun laws- no matter if it means thousands of people die in Mexico or along the border... :(


Oldtimer said:
Her refusal now to cooperate- and her ordering her staff not to cooperate reeks of the same "we are above the law" that people are so fed up with involving the Bush regime.....


Oldtimer said:
Smells just like the past 7 1/2 stinky years of secrecy, obstructionism, and usurption of the rule of law we had in the White House that so many folks are tired of....


Oldtimer said:
And King Georges kingdom continues to unravel.... :)


Oldtimer said:
I can't believe that any conservative can sit there and defend the actions of GW- and how he has tore apart the Constitution and caused a Constitutional crisis involving Congress's duty (shall) of oversight over the Administrative branch- knowing that if these are allowed to stand- they will set precedent in law- which will then be powers that can/will be used by future Presidents-- many of which may not be of their Party....

Do you want Obama to assume all these powers on Jan 20th :???:



Oldtimer said:
WHO HIRED/APPOINTED ALL THESE LYING WORTHLESS SOB'S :???: :wink:

Hypocrit-- how many of the 4 times when GW cited executive privilege involved a law enforcement issue and protecting the names/lives of informants/undercover operatives?


Respecting a congressional subpoena, does not mean you have to divulge the informants names, does it? :roll:


Ever heard of a redaction?


Oldtimer said:
WHO HIRED/APPOINTED ALL THESE LYING WORTHLESS SOB'S :???: :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

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Faster horses said:
As if Obama hasn't already leaked classified information and let names
out as he did with the Navy Seals.

You just can't help but defend your hero, can you OT.

Something stinks about them not releasing the documents
and they haven't mentioned, as you did, about putting people's
lives in danger. And for that matter, what about the poor parents
of Officer Terry?

Wasn't it 2500 guns they let walk, and then lied about it from
the start... :mad:

Far as I'm concerned the DOJ needs removed from their dirty duties.


How many 100's of guns "walked" under the GW administrations "wide receiver" operation?
Faster- Did you bitch and moan as loud about that operation putting 100's of guns in the hands of bad folks?

Or do you only bitch about DEMOCRAT ran LE operations...

You notice- I have never complained about either operation- because in LE you have to take chances and let some contraband drugs, guns, stolen goods, etal) walk and some bad guys walk if you want to have any chance to get to the top people in undercover operations....
I'm glad they made some attempt to get these Mexican cartel folk buying the guns- and these Bubba "americans" profitteering off illegally dealing in them and giving legal gun owners a bad name...
 

hypocritexposer

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Oldtimer said:
Faster horses said:
As if Obama hasn't already leaked classified information and let names
out as he did with the Navy Seals.

You just can't help but defend your hero, can you OT.

Something stinks about them not releasing the documents
and they haven't mentioned, as you did, about putting people's
lives in danger. And for that matter, what about the poor parents
of Officer Terry?

Wasn't it 2500 guns they let walk, and then lied about it from
the start... :mad:

Far as I'm concerned the DOJ needs removed from their dirty duties.


How many 100's of guns "walked" under the GW administrations "wide receiver" operation?
Faster- Did you bitch and moan as loud about that operation putting 100's of guns in the hands of bad folks?

Or do you only bitch about DEMOCRAT ran LE operations...

You notice- I have never complained about either operation- because in LE you have to take chances and let some contraband drugs, guns, stolen goods, etal) walk and some bad guys walk if you want to have any chance to get to the top people in undercover operations....
I'm glad they made some attempt to get these Mexican cartel folk buying the guns- and these Bubba "americans" profitteering off illegally dealing in them and giving legal gun owners a bad name...


Maybe if we had known about "wide receiver", we would ahve had a problem with it.

But what does that have to do with Congress getting to the bottom of these types of operations now?

Would you have had a problem with "operation wide receiver"?
 
A

Anonymous

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hypocritexposer said:
Oldtimer said:
Faster horses said:
As if Obama hasn't already leaked classified information and let names
out as he did with the Navy Seals.

You just can't help but defend your hero, can you OT.

Something stinks about them not releasing the documents
and they haven't mentioned, as you did, about putting people's
lives in danger. And for that matter, what about the poor parents
of Officer Terry?

Wasn't it 2500 guns they let walk, and then lied about it from
the start... :mad:

Far as I'm concerned the DOJ needs removed from their dirty duties.


How many 100's of guns "walked" under the GW administrations "wide receiver" operation?
Faster- Did you bitch and moan as loud about that operation putting 100's of guns in the hands of bad folks?

Or do you only bitch about DEMOCRAT ran LE operations...

You notice- I have never complained about either operation- because in LE you have to take chances and let some contraband drugs, guns, stolen goods, etal) walk and some bad guys walk if you want to have any chance to get to the top people in undercover operations....
I'm glad they made some attempt to get these Mexican cartel folk buying the guns- and these Bubba "americans" profitteering off illegally dealing in them and giving legal gun owners a bad name...


Maybe if we had known about "wide receiver", we would ahve had a problem with it.

But what does that have to do with Congress getting to the bottom of these types of operations now?

Would you have had a problem with "operation wide receiver"?

Like I said earlier-NO...In fact that would have been a feather in GW's crews hat that they were trying to do something about stopping all the guns going south...
Operations have been going on like this for a long time- and often they go astray...

All the whiners about the Mexican criminals getting their hands on some guns-- did you folks all whine and moan when Reagans CIA funneled that many AK-47's every day into the hands of Al Quaeda and Osama Bin Laden and the Afghans to fight Russians with?... Or gave them ground to air stinger missiles?
 

Steve

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wide receiver was considered a absolute failure...

but notice the difference.. in a minute of searching..



Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's

who cared about him?

Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations.

and once they knew it was a failure.. why expand it?

and why go against set policy and training?

The tactic of letting guns walk, rather than interdicting them and arresting the buyers, led to controversy within the ATF.[5][32] As the case continued, several members of Group VII, including John Dodson and Olindo Casa, became increasingly upset at the tactic of allowing guns to walk. Their standard Project Gunrunner training was to follow the straw purchasers to the hand-off to the cartel buyers, then arrest both parties and seize the guns. They watched guns being bought illegally and stashed on a daily basis, while their supervisors, including David Voth and Hope MacAllister, prevented the agents from intervening

in one case the higher ups shut it down when it didn't work.. in the other... they intervened when it could have worked...
 

Tam

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The ATF began Project Gunrunner as a pilot project in Laredo, Texas, in 2005 and expanded it as a national initiative in 2006. Project Gunrunner is also part of the Department of Justice’s broader Southwest Border Initiative, which seeks to reduce cross-border drug and firearms trafficking and the high level of violence associated with these activities on both sides of the border.[4]

ATF has determined that the Mexican cartels have become the leading gun trafficking organizations operating in the southwest U.S. and is working in collaboration with other agencies and the Government of Mexico to expand the eTrace firearm tracing software system.[5] eTrace provides web based access to ATF’s Firearms Tracing System to allow law enforcement both domestically and internationally the ability to trace firearms encountered in connection with a criminal investigation to the first recorded purchaser[6][7][8] (who may have innocently sold the gun years ago). eTrace allows law enforcement to access their trace results directly (name and address of first purchaser) and offers the ability to generate statistical reports to analyze their trace data to estimate firearms trafficking trends or patterns.

Fast and Furious was an operation so cloak-and-dagger Mexican authorities weren’t even notified that thousands of semi-automatic firearms were being sold to people in Arizona thought to have links to Mexican drug cartels. According to ATF whistleblowers, in 2009 the U.S. government began instructing gun storeowners to break the law by selling firearms to suspected criminals. ATF agents then, again according to testimony by ATF agents turned whistleblowers, were ordered not to intercept the smugglers but rather to let the guns “walk” across the U.S.-Mexican border and into the hands of Mexican drug-trafficking organizations.

Bush's Operation was an INTERNATIONAL EFFORT meaning the Mexican Government KNEW what was coming into their country and WHY. UNLIKE the cloak and dragger that Holder and Obama tried to pull off Fast and Furious.

Bush's operation didn't end with the DEATH OF A BORDER AGENT UNLIKE Obama's Operation.

And if you think Obama and the White House didn't know then how could he use his executive privilage to stop the release of the requested documents. Executive Privilage protects the Executive Branch not Holders Office especially when it is meant to cover up a COVER UP.

This is no different than Obama's Birth Certificate. If there isn't anything in the Documents that is going to hurt Holder and Obama why is Obama going Above and Beyond to hide the documents from the Congress and the Terry family?
 

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