WHAT COSTS MORE PER YEAR THAN THE IRAQ WAR?

[Steve]

OldTimer

I think there are several differing plans and options out there-

I would want to know exactly what their plan is before I went and blindly defended it.. :roll:

I don't think I've blindly defended any plan put out by any politician- I've just said that we need to get a program put together- and after 8 years of the Repubs doing nothing (after promising the world)- and their refusal before to even work with the Clinton plan--plus their continued veto of the bipartisan supported and passed bill to put more little kids under health care coverage, tell me that we are much more apt to get a plan and program from the Dems then we will from the neocons that control the current Republican Party...

The past seven years have shown that their obligation or loyalties are not for the middle class or working man- but instead the rich elitists, global traders, and corporate interests...

After the backlash over the elderly prescription plan can you blame them??

Every one thought it was a great idea.. every one supported it.. until Bush and the republicans approved it.. then it was the worse plan ever... :roll: :roll:

Indeed, it will almost certainly be far more expensive than he assumes, since his ideas for cost savings are mostly figments of his imagination. For example, Obama assumes that allowing the federal government to directly negotiate Medicare drug prices will yield substantial savings. But the Congressional Budget Office has said that private insurance plans have already reduced drug prices about as far as they can go, and unless the government is prepared to severely restrict drug formularies, denying seniors access to some drugs, further savings are unlikely.

 

[MoGal]

Well, I think we've privatized what should have remained under the government and what should be private has been taken by the government..... medical, and utilities should have strict price controls (even a limit on profit). It's the only way that prices will come down.

These same pharmaceutical companies send meds to other countries very cheaply (just look how many people go to Mexico from the US and buy drugs). Although its been about 3 years ago, last time I went to Mexico 500 mg of Amoxicillin (100 capsules) was about $3.00. If they can sell it in Mexico for that, why not the USA?

Also, someone mentioned healthcare in the UK a few pages back, they don't do a lot surgeries, cancer treatments, heart problems, etc... for their seniors or disabled. They don't come out and say it that they are a drain to the society of the working class, but you don't get the care like you would here in the US. My aunt needed a stent a few years back and they wouldn't put it in because of her age.... she was about 70.

 

[Steve]

Mogal

Also, someone mentioned healthcare in the UK a few pages back, they don't do a lot surgeries, cancer treatments, heart problems, etc... for their seniors or disabled. They don't come out and say it that they are a drain to the society of the working class, but you don't get the care like you would here in the US. My aunt needed a stent a few years back and they wouldn't put it in because of her age.... she was about 70.

basically at 50 they stop treating you for anything serious.. as your no longer considered productive..

my MIL waited seven years for a heart operation.. and we had it done over here in less then seven days..

about ten years later in her early 60s she died of colon cancer.. didn't get any treatment.

It is not free either they pay into the national health just like we pay SS..

 

[Mrs.Greg]

A Canadian visited this summer who had to go to the emergency room.
He had his insurance card and presented it to the hospital.

OHIP is SUPPOSED to pay for emergency room visits even in USA. That emergency room incidence occured in August 2007, and OHIP hasn't paid the hospital yet. And not only that, they don't return calls, don't say why they haven't paid, are just basacially absent. This person has been put on hold for over an hour and still nothing has been done.

Doesn't sound like "responsible health care" to me.

Travellers:

* Out of Country Emergency Health Services
* Ambulance
* Snowbirds
* Students Studying Abroad
* Employees Travelling for Business on a Regular Basis

Out of Country Emergency Health Services

Emergency health services are those given in connection with an acute*, unexpected condition, illness, disease or injury that arises outside Canada and requires immediate treatment.

* Treatment for a short period of time in which a patient is treated for a brief but severe episode of an illness, disease, condition or injury.

The Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP) only covers emergency health services at very limited rates. For example, an outpatient visit to a U.S. emergency room may cost thousands of dollars for the duration of your care, however OHIP will only reimburse up to a total of $50.00 CDN per day for this service regardless of the severity of the situation. If you plan to travel outside of Ontario, it is strongly recommended that you obtain additional private medical insurance and fully understand what your policy covers.

For additional information about travelling outside Canada please refer to the ministry's Fact Sheet "Travelling Outside Canada"

 

[Yanuck]

A Canadian visited this summer who had to go to the emergency room.
He had his insurance card and presented it to the hospital.

OHIP is SUPPOSED to pay for emergency room visits even in USA. That emergency room incidence occured in August 2007, and OHIP hasn't paid the hospital yet. And not only that, they don't return calls, don't say why they haven't paid, are just basacially absent. This person has been put on hold for over an hour and still nothing has been done.

Doesn't sound like "responsible health care" to me.

Travellers:

* Out of Country Emergency Health Services
* Ambulance
* Snowbirds
* Students Studying Abroad
* Employees Travelling for Business on a Regular Basis

Out of Country Emergency Health Services

Emergency health services are those given in connection with an acute*, unexpected condition, illness, disease or injury that arises outside Canada and requires immediate treatment.

* Treatment for a short period of time in which a patient is treated for a brief but severe episode of an illness, disease, condition or injury.

The Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP) only covers emergency health services at very limited rates. For example, an outpatient visit to a U.S. emergency room may cost thousands of dollars for the duration of your care, however OHIP will only reimburse up to a total of $50.00 CDN per day for this service regardless of the severity of the situation. If you plan to travel outside of Ontario, it is strongly recommended that you obtain additional private medical insurance and fully understand what your policy covers.

For additional information about travelling outside Canada please refer to the ministry's Fact Sheet "Travelling Outside Canada"

I would say the majority of Canadians that travel to the States will get travel insurance, when my parents used to go to Arizona for the winter that was a MUST. Thank God they did with their accident, all of their bills were covered 100%, and I know it was well over 100,000 for the week they were in New Mexico.

 

[Anonymous]

Mogal

Also, someone mentioned healthcare in the UK a few pages back, they don't do a lot surgeries, cancer treatments, heart problems, etc... for their seniors or disabled. They don't come out and say it that they are a drain to the society of the working class, but you don't get the care like you would here in the US. My aunt needed a stent a few years back and they wouldn't put it in because of her age.... she was about 70.

basically at 50 they stop treating you for anything serious.. as your no longer considered productive..

my MIL waited seven years for a heart operation.. and we had it done over here in less then seven days..

about ten years later in her early 60s she died of colon cancer.. didn't get any treatment.

It is not free either they pay into the national health just like we pay SS..

One thing to remember tho-- Englands program is a Nationalized Health Care system- where the entire medical system is ran by the government-- which is not even being thought of in the US by anyone....All the US proposals I saw were ways to provide a universal health care INSURANCE coverage... The doctors would still be private- the hospitals would still be private--persons would still be able to choose their doctor or their health care center- or for that matter their insurance.... Government would just guarantee everyone the opportunity to affordable health care INSURANCE- that could not be dropped because of maximum limits, or previous illness's, or a crib full of lawyers arguments that your insurance payment was a day late....

AMA opposes socialized medicine like Britains or Cubas- but is a big backer of getting everyone insurance which they say would result in total health care savings for the country with earlier diagnosis and preventive care....

 

[Steve]

OldTimer

All the US proposals I saw were ways to provide a universal health care INSURANCE coverage...

after reading about Obama's proposal it appears affordable health care isn't going to happen.. I guess when your making $300,000 and have book deals your definition of affordable is different then mine..

is cutting $2500 off the average plan of $12,000 affordable?








the pdf is hidden at the bottom of one of the pages on his website.. it says alot,.. but as I posted on a new thread... those who do not support Obama blindly think his plan is a watered down Massachusetts plan.

 

[Red Robin]

When you continually wave it around like a red cape in front of a bull- or run hide behind it to use as a crutch- its bound to come up...Especially when the words you speak, don't match the ideals portrayed by the Book...
Yep - what was it you said about people that can't get health insurance- let them all go broke and live on welfare- or go asking for handouts from charity....So much for compassion....

Much like you wave your judgeship and renown sheriffing ability huh. Should we call you your honor? My ideas do match up with the Bible. If you want chapter and verses, pm me.

 

[Anonymous]

When you continually wave it around like a red cape in front of a bull- or run hide behind it to use as a crutch- its bound to come up...Especially when the words you speak, don't match the ideals portrayed by the Book...
Yep - what was it you said about people that can't get health insurance- let them all go broke and live on welfare- or go asking for handouts from charity....So much for compassion....

Much like you wave your judgeship and renown sheriffing ability huh. Should we call you your honor? My ideas do match up with the Bible. If you want chapter and verses, pm me.

Well Reverend Right-- Unlike you - I don't forget my obligation and responsibility to my community- or to be my brothers keeper when I walk out of the Courthouse- as you seem to do the minute you walk out of the Church....

It appears to me that you are just another one of those that wears Church and the Bible on his sleeve, while promoting his politics- then minutes later turns around and makes comments like all those that can't get insurance should be made to sell all their belongings to pay for their own or family members medical bills and go broke and on welfare...

Wanting people living off assistance and denigrated in society wasn't one of the Christian tenants I learned.. Neither was supporting little children wanting for preventative care or for that matter any treatment as you seem to support..... :shock:
Or as your fellow neocon suggested- we could all work for the Post Office- or spend a career in the Army so we could be guaranteed insurance :???: :roll: :shock: :wink: :lol:
Why not all be US Senators :???: We could get insurance then....

Until you look at the "real world" and the millions of burger flippers, waittress's, gas station attendents, Walmart clerks, farm workers, etc. etc. out there (that are necessary to keep this economy/world operating) that have no job offered insurance- and no way to pay for it with minimum wage jobs- your arguments on the insurance issue are null and void....

 

[PrairieQueen]

New here so go easy

I will say first, that the thought of the Federal Government running anything makes me cringe 8)

But I am also among those that realize that something needs to change with health care in this country.

I could support a system like Canada before the NHS that U.K. has. One thought though, does anyone have any figures on illegal immigration in Canada? I am guessing that is less of a drain on their system than it would be here.

Also, what are everyone's thoughts on Consumer Driven Health Care plans (HSA's)?

Maybe something like Switzerland would be better?

Swiss health system called model for U.S.
Photo
Herzlinger

Americans should be able to buy their own health insurance, an idea that would require tax relief for consumers, government subsidies for poor people, and other changes to improve quality and affordability, an advocate for consumer-driven health says.

As the U.S. system is now, employers primarily buy coverage for those with health insurance — which costs $2.2 billion a year — yet 300,000 people die every three years from hospital errors, said Professor Regina Herzlinger, the first woman to be tenured and chairman at Harvard University's business school.

"We certainly know it's a bad value for the money," Ms. Herzlinger told more than 100 people yesterday during a speech at the University of Toledo's Law Center. "If this were any other industry, we'd have massive revolt."

Ms. Herzlinger, author of Who Killed Health Care? America's $2 Trillion Medical Problem and the Consumer-Driven Cure, held Switzerland up as a model for consumer-driven health care. Health care in Switzerland costs 40 percent less than in the United States, and residents can choose among 87 insurance companies with plans of various prices, Ms. Herzlinger said. The Swiss face financial penalties or rewards based on their lifestyles, such as a 30 percent premium hike for smokers, she said.

Legal changes have made the United States virtually the only country where employers buy insurance for residents, Ms. Herz­linger said. Health insurance costs a Massachusetts family $15,000 a year, for example.

While employers use pretax dollars to pay, individuals don't get the same break, she said.

That would need to change if consumers were put in charge of buying their own health insurance, Ms. Herzlinger said.

Instead of providing poor people with flawed coverage such as Medicaid, they should be given government subsidies to buy insurance like people in Switzerland, she said.

Consumers would have to be given much more information about health-care choices before a shift can occur, Ms. Herzlinger said

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071016/NEWS32/71016028/-1/NEWS

http://cdhc.ncpa.org/policy-issues/?c=cdhc-in-other-countries

 

[Anonymous]

Legal changes have made the United States virtually the only country where employers buy insurance for residents, Ms. Herz­linger said. Health insurance costs a Massachusetts family $15,000 a year, for example.

And like Goodpasture said- that is why all the Industrial/manufacturing CEO's around the world say that US products can't compete with those made overseas....Another reason they can produce cheaper...

One thing about any insurance plan- altho anything mandated is an unpopular concept- Romney and Edwards were right when they said that some type of insurance coverage would have to be MANDATORY, in order for the benefits of universal insurance to come into play...Or else we could still be paying the bills for those that have none.....Not mandated companies or plans- but mandated that everyone is covered by something...

 

[Steve]

Health insurance costs a Massachusetts family $15,000 a year, for example.

not sure about any one else, but $15,000 is not affordable.. unless your making $300,000 a year like the Obamas'

and Obama's plan claims to only save you $2500 if he can get his imagined savings out of thin air... :roll: :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

The annual premium that a health insurer charges an employer for a health plan covering a family of four averaged $12,100 in 2007. Workers contributed nearly $3,300, or 10 percent more than they did in 2006.2 The annual premiums for family coverage significantly eclipsed the gross earnings for a full-time, minimum-wage worker ($10,712).

The annual premium for single coverage averaged over $4,400..

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

$4400 is almost 42% of the gross earnings of a full-time minimum- wage worker....

 

[Red Robin]

Well Reverend Right-- Unlike you - I don't forget my obligation and responsibility to my community- or to be my brothers keeper when I walk out of the Courthouse- as you seem to do the minute you walk out of the Church....

You don't know me very well your honor. If you want your brother to succeed, why do you lay additional burdens of excess taxation and regulation on his back?

It appears to me that you are just another one of those that wears Church and the Bible on his sleeve, while promoting his politics- then minutes later turns around and makes comments like all those that can't get insurance should be made to sell all their belongings to pay for their own or family members medical bills and go broke and on welfare...

Your communist ideas of fail and fail alike aren't appealing to me your honor.

Wanting people living off assistance and denigrated in society wasn't one of the Christian tenants I learned.. Neither was supporting little children wanting for preventative care or for that matter any treatment as you seem to support..... :shock:
Or as your fellow neocon suggested- we could all work for the Post Office- or spend a career in the Army so we could be guaranteed insurance :???: :roll: :shock: :wink: :lol:
Why not all be US Senators :???: We could get insurance then....

If people living off assistance isn't something you're for your honor, why do you want to tax people more. Taxes always create less wealth in any society. I actually am for success, not you. You're wanting a welfare society where no one has a chance to succeed. You want equal losers where only government employees win. There are better ways and we're currently better now than under your communist ideas.

Until you look at the "real world" and the millions of burger flippers, waittress's, gas station attendents, Walmart clerks, farm workers, etc. etc. out there (that are necessary to keep this economy/world operating) that have no job offered insurance- and no way to pay for it with minimum wage jobs- your arguments on the insurance issue are null and void....

I'm sure you know way more about the real world than me there your honor. We don't have burger flippers , waitresses, gas station attendants , wal-mart clerks , farm workers, etc., etc. here in Arkansas. Everyone here is an executive of a large multinational corporation that is greedy. :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Until you look at the "real world" and the millions of burger flippers, waittress's, gas station attendents, Walmart clerks, farm workers, etc. etc. out there (that are necessary to keep this economy/world operating) that have no job offered insurance- and no way to pay for it with minimum wage jobs- your arguments on the insurance issue are null and void....

I'm sure you know way more about the real world than me there your honor. We don't have burger flippers , waitresses, gas station attendants , wal-mart clerks , farm workers, etc., etc. here in Arkansas. Everyone here is an executive of a large multinational corporation that is greedy. :lol:

Well in all your ranting- you haven't explained how all these people, that Arkansas doesn't have, that are paid around minimum wage- can afford to pay for health care insurance when family insurance costs more than what they earn- and single payer costs 40+% of their earnings.... :???:

Who is paying for their medical care right now :???:
Or does your church provide all the medical expenses for those :roll: :???:

 

[Steve]

Oldtimer

$4400 is almost 42% of the gross earnings of a full-time minimum- wage worker....

Health insurance costs a Massachusetts family $15,000 a year, for example.

if Obama's plan is molded from Massachusetts with a fatal flaw and will cost more.. then his offering a $2500 savings will only get it to an already unaffordable.. $12,500 or over a $1000 a month...

Why not push for an actual plan that works.. and not settle or vote for a plan that is less affordable then what we have now?

in fact if the they took the total cost of all the health care in the country and made every one pay a share it would be cheaper..

so how is Obama's plan going to help?

 

[mrj]

OK, guys, who can get any info on how many FAMILIES have only minimum wage jobs?

Wasn't/isn't minimum wage intended as a starter wage?

Where does job skills and competence come into play?

Aren't people short-changing themselves, aided by a society that doesn't seem to expect "the poor" to get training and decent jobs before making babies?

How many people, with even a small level of competence or skills, do NOT get paid more than minumum wages?

How many programs to help "the poor" do nothing but push food and assistance at the problem, when what is needed is to learn why the person is not employable or working?

BTW, we paid $15,000.00 per year for insurance, even with a high deductible, understanding we could not afford to be without coverage. It was never easy and insurance costs probably contribute to the problems of health care by raising the costs of treatment to 'what the traffic will bear', IMO.

Is there truly anyone who really needs health care who is turned away? I know of people who faced horrendous bills above their insurance coverage, who were told to pay what they could each month.........and it has worked out for them.

It seems high costs also are also partly due to those who go to emergency rooms for care because they know they won't have to pay, when a clinic could take care of their problem for far less cost to society.

Maybe the real culprit is bureaucracy, plus the level of socialized medicine we ALREADY HAVE????

mrj

 

[cutterone]

25% of American households make $25,00 or less. Do you think they can afford $15,000 a year for insurance?
Have you ever been to a free clinic???

 

[Anonymous]

25% of American households make $25,00 or less. Do you think they can afford $15,000 a year for insurance?
Have you ever been to a free clinic???

Reverend Right will pray for them when they can't pay their bill- or get care in the clinics :shock: :roll: :wink:

 

[Mrs.Greg]

25% of American households make $25,00 or less. Do you think they can afford $15,000 a year for insurance?
Have you ever been to a free clinic???

What do people who can't pay do? Is there really such a thing as a free clinic?