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What/who is Stop Animal ID.org??????

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mrj

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Have any of you checked out the website www.stopanimalid.org?

I did and found some interesting information, lots of ads, links that may prove useful....or not, and even speculation as to whether or not the ID is "the mark of the beast" of biblical reference.

Derry Brownfield is quoted and he has stated on his radio show that animal ID is just a trial run to get the bugs out of the system and get us used to it before it is required on people.

What I did NOT find was more than one name of who IS running Stop Animal ID. Nor did I find any finanacial information as to who is paying for the website.

Were we not warned that such sites are not credible?

Or does that apply only to Steve Dittmer's site speaking up for the cattle/beef industry?

Interesting......the way people make, and defend, such decisions, isn't it?

MRJ
 

Econ101

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MRJ said:
Have any of you checked out the website www.stopanimalid.org?

I did and found some interesting information, lots of ads, links that may prove useful....or not, and even speculation as to whether or not the ID is "the mark of the beast" of biblical reference.

Derry Brownfield is quoted and he has stated on his radio show that animal ID is just a trial run to get the bugs out of the system and get us used to it before it is required on people.

What I did NOT find was more than one name of who IS running Stop Animal ID. Nor did I find any finanacial information as to who is paying for the website.

Were we not warned that such sites are not credible?

Or does that apply only to Steve Dittmer's site speaking up for the cattle/beef industry?

Interesting......the way people make, and defend, such decisions, isn't it?

MRJ

Sometimes MRJ, regardless of where the information comes from, you have read it and think for yourself.

This reminds me of the protestant movement and Martin Luther. All men/organizations are fallable. To say this is not so defies reality.

Think for yourself instead of asking someone else to do it for you all the time.
 

mrj

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Econ101 said:
MRJ said:
Have any of you checked out the website www.stopanimalid.org?

I did and found some interesting information, lots of ads, links that may prove useful....or not, and even speculation as to whether or not the ID is "the mark of the beast" of biblical reference.

Derry Brownfield is quoted and he has stated on his radio show that animal ID is just a trial run to get the bugs out of the system and get us used to it before it is required on people.

What I did NOT find was more than one name of who IS running Stop Animal ID. Nor did I find any finanacial information as to who is paying for the website.

Were we not warned that such sites are not credible?

Or does that apply only to Steve Dittmer's site speaking up for the cattle/beef industry?

Interesting......the way people make, and defend, such decisions, isn't it?

MRJ

Sometimes MRJ, regardless of where the information comes from, you have read it and think for yourself.

This reminds me of the protestant movement and Martin Luther. All men/organizations are fallable. To say this is not so defies reality.

Think for yourself instead of asking someone else to do it for you all the time.


I do not believe you would have made that statement if I had simply regurgitated your beliefs about Tyson, USDA, ID, et. al.

However, I most certainly do think for myself. I just don't make up the situations, so I have to have some basic facts before I make my own decisions.

I've found that Steve Dittmer is credible based on information I have from other sources. Time will tell if that is so about Stop Animal ID.org, however I've seen some stuff that does not compute with what I have learned in other places. Will see what the future brings re. that site.

MRJ
 
A

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MRJ-- I don't know how you can compare stopanimalid.org to Dittmer...Dittmer and his "foundation" is an apparently one man website with only the opinions of Dittmer and corporate industry published on it....

stopanimalid.org is a forum based website where anyone and everyone can post their beliefs or knowledge about animal id...Just like ranchers.net...

Maxine- Maybe you should get on the site and straighten them thar folks out :wink: :lol:
 

mrj

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Oldtimer said:
MRJ-- I don't know how you can compare stopanimalid.org to Dittmer...Dittmer and his "foundation" is an apparently one man website with only the opinions of Dittmer and corporate industry published on it....

stopanimalid.org is a forum based website where anyone and everyone can post their beliefs or knowledge about animal id...Just like ranchers.net...

Maxine- Maybe you should get on the site and straighten them thar folks out :wink: :lol:

I really don't have that much interest in fighting that fight.

Those who already are using ID will continue to benefit from it......and I don't have any interest in those who choose not to add value to their animals.

It will be interesting to see who screams the quickest and loudest for government help when a Bird Flu or a terrorist carried FMD breaks out in this country, though.

MRJ
 

ocm

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MRJ said:
Oldtimer said:
MRJ-- I don't know how you can compare stopanimalid.org to Dittmer...Dittmer and his "foundation" is an apparently one man website with only the opinions of Dittmer and corporate industry published on it....

stopanimalid.org is a forum based website where anyone and everyone can post their beliefs or knowledge about animal id...Just like ranchers.net...

Maxine- Maybe you should get on the site and straighten them thar folks out :wink: :lol:

I really don't have that much interest in fighting that fight.

Those who already are using ID will continue to benefit from it......and I don't have any interest in those who choose not to add value to their animals.

It will be interesting to see who screams the quickest and loudest for government help when a Bird Flu or a terrorist carried FMD breaks out in this country, though.

MRJ

This last week in response to a question Neil Hammerschmidt, USDA" NAIS man confessed that in case of an FMD outbreak the USDA would just draw a circle on the map. ID would not be that useful.

I told you before MRJ, you guys need to find some disaster scenario besides FMD to justify mandatory ID. Have you heard of one yet.

Bird flu?? Only poultry (which has no national plans for individual ID) and human (ditto).

What else?
 

mrj

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ocm said:
MRJ said:
Oldtimer said:
MRJ-- I don't know how you can compare stopanimalid.org to Dittmer...Dittmer and his "foundation" is an apparently one man website with only the opinions of Dittmer and corporate industry published on it....

stopanimalid.org is a forum based website where anyone and everyone can post their beliefs or knowledge about animal id...Just like ranchers.net...

Maxine- Maybe you should get on the site and straighten them thar folks out :wink: :lol:

I really don't have that much interest in fighting that fight.

Those who already are using ID will continue to benefit from it......and I don't have any interest in those who choose not to add value to their animals.

It will be interesting to see who screams the quickest and loudest for government help when a Bird Flu or a terrorist carried FMD breaks out in this country, though.

MRJ

This last week in response to a question Neil Hammerschmidt, USDA" NAIS man confessed that in case of an FMD outbreak the USDA would just draw a circle on the map. ID would not be that useful.

I told you before MRJ, you guys need to find some disaster scenario besides FMD to justify mandatory ID. Have you heard of one yet.

Bird flu?? Only poultry (which has no national plans for individual ID) and human (ditto).

What else?

FMD is a recognizable, very serious animal disease, useful as an example of a variety of possible diseases. Sorry you reject my use of it.

Bird Flu......are you saying it is impossible for bird flu to become a human disease? I had a friend who died of a flu-like disease contracted from exposure to chickens several years ago, and have heard of others who have had serious illnesses from exposure in poultry houses. I do believe the government is likely going overboard on preparing for the forcast "Pandemic" of a human form of bird flu......at least I hope they are. However, I have NO doubt the people, if such a thing does happen, will damn the government leaders for not doing enough to protect them.

I really don't care if this system is implemented or not. Those of us who are adding value to our cattle and use RFID will benefit if the majority do not do so.

However, from the communicable cattle disease aspect, especially one used as part of the Muslim terrorists arsenal, I do have fears if we are not able to track animals.

Do you not recall how the cattle market dropped like a rock a few years ago over the RUMOR, later found to be totally false, of a possible FMD at a sale in the mid-west?

I'm just saying we need to be vigilant and have the means to track cattle quickly, in the event of a variety of cattle diseases. Using fears from biblical prophecy to thwart that means seems like playing a game that can harm innocent people.

BTW, I'm not so concerned about losing "freedoms" under the Patriot Act as I am about the very real threat from religious fanatics who are determined to "eliminate all infidels".

BTW, we had serous constraints to our "freedom" during WWII which were removed when the danger was over.

MRJ
 

Mike

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I'm just saying we need to be vigilant and have the means to track cattle quickly, in the event of a variety of cattle diseases.

I do ID all my cattle and too think it necessary. But if "COOL" had passed in full, we would have ID now.
 

ocm

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MRJ said:
ocm said:
MRJ said:
I really don't have that much interest in fighting that fight.

Those who already are using ID will continue to benefit from it......and I don't have any interest in those who choose not to add value to their animals.

It will be interesting to see who screams the quickest and loudest for government help when a Bird Flu or a terrorist carried FMD breaks out in this country, though.

MRJ

This last week in response to a question Neil Hammerschmidt, USDA" NAIS man confessed that in case of an FMD outbreak the USDA would just draw a circle on the map. ID would not be that useful.

I told you before MRJ, you guys need to find some disaster scenario besides FMD to justify mandatory ID. Have you heard of one yet.

Bird flu?? Only poultry (which has no national plans for individual ID) and human (ditto).

What else?

FMD is a recognizable, very serious animal disease, useful as an example of a variety of possible diseases. Sorry you reject my use of it.

Bird Flu......are you saying it is impossible for bird flu to become a human disease? I had a friend who died of a flu-like disease contracted from exposure to chickens several years ago, and have heard of others who have had serious illnesses from exposure in poultry houses. I do believe the government is likely going overboard on preparing for the forcast "Pandemic" of a human form of bird flu......at least I hope they are. However, I have NO doubt the people, if such a thing does happen, will damn the government leaders for not doing enough to protect them.

I really don't care if this system is implemented or not. Those of us who are adding value to our cattle and use RFID will benefit if the majority do not do so.

However, from the communicable cattle disease aspect, especially one used as part of the Muslim terrorists arsenal, I do have fears if we are not able to track animals.

Do you not recall how the cattle market dropped like a rock a few years ago over the RUMOR, later found to be totally false, of a possible FMD at a sale in the mid-west?

I'm just saying we need to be vigilant and have the means to track cattle quickly, in the event of a variety of cattle diseases. Using fears from biblical prophecy to thwart that means seems like playing a game that can harm innocent people.

BTW, I'm not so concerned about losing "freedoms" under the Patriot Act as I am about the very real threat from religious fanatics who are determined to "eliminate all infidels".

BTW, we had serous constraints to our "freedom" during WWII which were removed when the danger was over.

MRJ

What I'm saying is that the USDA man in charge of NAIS agreed that ID would not be used in case of FMD. USDA would use GEOGRAPHY, not ID.

Second, reread my comment on bird flu. I DID say it is contractable by humans (but not cattle). What I was saying is that poultry don't have individual ID. So, how is bird flu an example of the necessity for individual animal ID.

You are speaking generically about "diseases". What I'm saying is that you (and everybody else promoting individual ID) have not come up with a specific disease scenario where individual ID is the BEST way to prevent the spread.

And you still haven't come up with one.

You say you are afraid of terrorist attacks using animal diseases. You said"However, from the communicable cattle disease aspect, especially one used as part of the Muslim terrorists arsenal, I do have fears if we are not able to track animals."

OK, what specific diseases?

FMD?
They would use GEOGRAPHY.

BVD?
Does not spread fast enough to cause an epidemic.

Bangs?
Already taken care of.

Warts?
??????

BSE?
Other methods cheaper and more effective.

So?? What I am challenging is the HEALTH tracking BENEFITS. Everybody says they exist but nobody is naming them--specifically.
 

mrj

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ocm said:
MRJ said:
ocm said:
This last week in response to a question Neil Hammerschmidt, USDA" NAIS man confessed that in case of an FMD outbreak the USDA would just draw a circle on the map. ID would not be that useful.

I told you before MRJ, you guys need to find some disaster scenario besides FMD to justify mandatory ID. Have you heard of one yet.

Bird flu?? Only poultry (which has no national plans for individual ID) and human (ditto).

What else?

FMD is a recognizable, very serious animal disease, useful as an example of a variety of possible diseases. Sorry you reject my use of it.

Bird Flu......are you saying it is impossible for bird flu to become a human disease? I had a friend who died of a flu-like disease contracted from exposure to chickens several years ago, and have heard of others who have had serious illnesses from exposure in poultry houses. I do believe the government is likely going overboard on preparing for the forcast "Pandemic" of a human form of bird flu......at least I hope they are. However, I have NO doubt the people, if such a thing does happen, will damn the government leaders for not doing enough to protect them.

I really don't care if this system is implemented or not. Those of us who are adding value to our cattle and use RFID will benefit if the majority do not do so.

However, from the communicable cattle disease aspect, especially one used as part of the Muslim terrorists arsenal, I do have fears if we are not able to track animals.

Do you not recall how the cattle market dropped like a rock a few years ago over the RUMOR, later found to be totally false, of a possible FMD at a sale in the mid-west?

I'm just saying we need to be vigilant and have the means to track cattle quickly, in the event of a variety of cattle diseases. Using fears from biblical prophecy to thwart that means seems like playing a game that can harm innocent people.

BTW, I'm not so concerned about losing "freedoms" under the Patriot Act as I am about the very real threat from religious fanatics who are determined to "eliminate all infidels".

BTW, we had serous constraints to our "freedom" during WWII which were removed when the danger was over.

MRJ

What I'm saying is that the USDA man in charge of NAIS agreed that ID would not be used in case of FMD. USDA would use GEOGRAPHY, not ID.

Second, reread my comment on bird flu. I DID say it is contractable by humans (but not cattle). What I was saying is that poultry don't have individual ID. So, how is bird flu an example of the necessity for individual animal ID.

You are speaking generically about "diseases". What I'm saying is that you (and everybody else promoting individual ID) have not come up with a specific disease scenario where individual ID is the BEST way to prevent the spread.

And you still haven't come up with one.

You say you are afraid of terrorist attacks using animal diseases. You said"However, from the communicable cattle disease aspect, especially one used as part of the Muslim terrorists arsenal, I do have fears if we are not able to track animals."

OK, what specific diseases?

FMD?
They would use GEOGRAPHY.

BVD?
Does not spread fast enough to cause an epidemic.

Bangs?
Already taken care of.

Warts?
??????

BSE?
Other methods cheaper and more effective.

So?? What I am challenging is the HEALTH tracking BENEFITS. Everybody says they exist but nobody is naming them--specifically.

So??? I never said I know EVERY cattle disease. Nor did I say I'm promoting NAIS. I believe it may be best for those who use RFID if it isn't mandatory.......gives an edge over those who do not. But I am CONCERNED that those who are fighting this MAY end up causing harm to the cattle industry IF there is a problem that COULD by helped by such ID and tracking.

Why do you accept the word of ONE person who may be incharge of NAIS today, but who may not be there next year? Or his orders may change.

I believe it will better serve the cattle business and all of agriculture if people involved with all species, will work together to determine what we really need rather than bristling up and automatically fighting it because it comes from the Bush Administration. But since members of NCBA and some other cattle organizations have already done that, I'm not surprised R-CALF and ocm will be fighting it.

I see lots of conjecture, and very little set-in-concrete rules on this subject. I see lots of wild speculation about what is or is not going to happen. Some have even said your family parakeet will require ID and a $20.00 license paid, so how can you be sure poultry will not be covered? Have you never seen the little leg rings used on poultry long ago, maybe they still are, I don't know, but do know it would not be impossible to ID them individually.

Finally, don't you feel the least bit odd to be demanding COOL, yet fighting true ID for domestic beef?

MRJ
 

ocm

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MRJ said:
But I am CONCERNED that those who are fighting this MAY end up causing harm to the cattle industry IF there is a problem that COULD by helped by such ID and tracking.
That's why I would like to see a quantitative cost/benefit analysis.
MRJ said:
Why do you accept the word of ONE person who may be incharge of NAIS today, but who may not be there next year? Or his orders may change.
The same question has been asked of some State Veterinarians, and they gave the same answer. It's not a matter of preference, it's a matter of what works.
MRJ said:
I believe it will better serve the cattle business and all of agriculture if people involved with all species, will work together to determine what we really need rather than bristling up and automatically fighting it because it comes from the Bush Administration. But since members of NCBA and some other cattle organizations have already done that, I'm not surprised R-CALF and ocm will be fighting it.
R-CALF is working on a plan that is not national nor mandatory and would incorporate current brand laws and other state practices into disease tracking.
It seems that NCBA was willing to go ahead WITHOUT the aforementioned cost/benefit analysis. R-CALF is asking for one so that we can determine the best way to proceed.
MRJ said:
Some have even said your family parakeet will require ID and a $20.00 license paid, so how can you be sure poultry will not be covered?
That was the Texas state regulation, not NAIS.
MRJ said:
Have you never seen the little leg rings used on poultry long ago, maybe they still are, I don't know, but do know it would not be impossible to ID them individually.
That's not the current plan.
MRJ said:
Finally, don't you feel the least bit odd to be demanding COOL, yet fighting true ID for domestic beef?
I suppose we could ask you the flipside question!

ID as proposed would set up conflicts with already existing state practices. Field test show it doesn't work. States have always done the groundwork on animal health--even when there are national laws.

COOL is EXTREMELY simple (if the USDA wanted to make it that way) and follows a pattern of national labeling laws already in existence.
 

mslms

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I just sent stopanimalid.org a message asking them if they are going to compensate producers in the U.S. for their losses when all foreign countries refuses to buy U.S agriculture commodities because the source cannot be verified thus dropping prices or are they willing to compensate producers when a really serious disease outbreak occurs in animals and humans and it devastates the nation because the orgin cannot be traced back to the beginning culprit for lack of a traceback system.

I am waiting for their reply. :roll: :!: :!: :!:
 

ocm

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mslms said:
I just sent stopanimalid.org a message asking them if they are going to compensate producers in the U.S. for their losses when all foreign countries refuses to buy U.S agriculture commodities because the source cannot be verified thus dropping prices or are they willing to compensate producers when a really serious disease outbreak occurs in animals and humans and it devastates the nation because the orgin cannot be traced back to the beginning culprit for lack of a traceback system.

I am waiting for their reply. :roll: :!: :!: :!:

You are apparently believing some incorrect information. Source verification is currently available to any producer who wants to do it. It's not the same as mandatory animal ID.

I have asked for and still not received ANY rational answer from mandatory ID proponents as to what disease scenario they can reasonably expect to happen that is not already covered by current processes that mandatory ID would take care of.

Care to give me such a scenario?
 

mrj

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ocm said:
mslms said:
I just sent stopanimalid.org a message asking them if they are going to compensate producers in the U.S. for their losses when all foreign countries refuses to buy U.S agriculture commodities because the source cannot be verified thus dropping prices or are they willing to compensate producers when a really serious disease outbreak occurs in animals and humans and it devastates the nation because the orgin cannot be traced back to the beginning culprit for lack of a traceback system.

I am waiting for their reply. :roll: :!: :!: :!:

You are apparently believing some incorrect information. Source verification is currently available to any producer who wants to do it. It's not the same as mandatory animal ID.

I have asked for and still not received ANY rational answer from mandatory ID proponents as to what disease scenario they can reasonably expect to happen that is not already covered by current processes that mandatory ID would take care of.

Care to give me such a scenario?

ocm, does this mean you and R-CALF now support M-ID after keeping it out of your COOL law?

MRJ
 

ocm

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MRJ said:
ocm said:
mslms said:
I just sent stopanimalid.org a message asking them if they are going to compensate producers in the U.S. for their losses when all foreign countries refuses to buy U.S agriculture commodities because the source cannot be verified thus dropping prices or are they willing to compensate producers when a really serious disease outbreak occurs in animals and humans and it devastates the nation because the orgin cannot be traced back to the beginning culprit for lack of a traceback system.

I am waiting for their reply. :roll: :!: :!: :!:

You are apparently believing some incorrect information. Source verification is currently available to any producer who wants to do it. It's not the same as mandatory animal ID.

I have asked for and still not received ANY rational answer from mandatory ID proponents as to what disease scenario they can reasonably expect to happen that is not already covered by current processes that mandatory ID would take care of.

Care to give me such a scenario?

ocm, does this mean you and R-CALF now support M-ID after keeping it out of your COOL law?

MRJ

Strange. I don't see anything in what I said that would give you that idea.

R-CALF is opposed to national mandatory ID. However, they are working with NAIS officials to come up with a voluntary program (at least on the national level) that works. They are very much concerned about any national program and strongly prefer state run programs that include current brand laws. It is not yet clear that it would necessarily be an individual ID situation.

NAIS official were pleasantly surprised by R-CALF's willingness to work with them. The USAHA was very disturbed by the direction NCBA was taking the ID program.
 

mslms

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No program of such magnitude will work on a voluntary bases. There are too many small producers and hobbiest out there who only see their livestock from the pickup cab or atv. They do not keep any form of records now let alone volunteer to source verify their animals. How many producers do you know who volunteer to pay their beef checkoff dollars on private treaty sales. If it were not manditory to be withheld at a sale barn very few producers would volunteer to have it withheld.

The only way for such a program to work on the producers side and to do its purpose in an event it is needed, is make it mandatory, and if you don't want to abide, either get out of the business or take a severe price reduction.
 

Mike

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mslms said:
No program of such magnitude will work on a voluntary bases. There are too many small producers and hobbiest out there who only see their livestock from the pickup cab or atv. They do not keep any form of records now let alone volunteer to source verify their animals. How many producers do you know who volunteer to pay their beef checkoff dollars on private treaty sales. If it were not manditory to be withheld at a sale barn very few producers would volunteer to have it withheld.

The only way for such a program to work on the producers side and to do its purpose in an event it is needed, is make it mandatory, and if you don't want to abide, either get out of the business or take a severe price reduction.

It could be very simple. When you deliver your calves to wherever.....and they aren't tagged/ID'ed you will take a hit in price.

Those that don't will get out or change, and those that do will get the premium.
 

ocm

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mslms said:
No program of such magnitude will work on a voluntary bases. There are too many small producers and hobbiest out there who only see their livestock from the pickup cab or atv. They do not keep any form of records now let alone volunteer to source verify their animals. How many producers do you know who volunteer to pay their beef checkoff dollars on private treaty sales. If it were not manditory to be withheld at a sale barn very few producers would volunteer to have it withheld.

The only way for such a program to work on the producers side and to do its purpose in an event it is needed, is make it mandatory, and if you don't want to abide, either get out of the business or take a severe price reduction.

That's just half the argument. Now, tell me EXACTLY what the benefits are for a national mandatory program. You can't. No cost benefit analysis has been done.
If I see a genuine cost benefit analysis I MIGHT change my mind. On the other hand if YOU see a cost benefit analysis, you might change yours.
 

ocm

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Tumbleweed said:
I was looking around on the internet and came acrross this website and think it's a little more food for thought.

www.nonais.org

Interesting. Some good stuff, but also some inaccuracies.
 

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