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What would happen?

cutterone

Well-known member
This Putin, Russian thing really has me bothered. What if that were us? I can see the likes of Obama handing us over without a fight. I just can’t imagine our military just standing there watching our sovernty being invaded without lifting a weapon. Could it? Would it? If there was a fight and we lost what would it look like? Would we really ever give in even if our leaders did hand us over and our military defeated?
 

backhoeboogie

Well-known member
Our citizens are armed. Big difference. We'd each have to make our own personal choices.

How many of your ancestors fought to give you this country? The right to vote? Was their fight worth it or did they fight for nothing?
 

Tam

Well-known member
What you should fear is what Obama is going to do to stop the protests over his overreach of power that has gotten so bad that even SOME Democrats are speaking out about. Will he think he can send out the Military to stop the "RACISTS" he thinks object to his policies because of his skin color.

Putin was encouraged to walk into the Ukraine when he saw the lack of push back from the world when Syria and Iran used force against their citizens. Do you not think Obama is being encouraged to push his POWERS because of the lack of push back he is receiving from the US citizens over his past overreach?

Will the Dems support his use of the Military to stop those that oppose him? We have all seen them defend his using the IRS to silence groups that oppose him so will they also defend him using the MILITARY like other out of control DICTATORS to keep you under control so they can stay in POWER?

The US is on a very slippery slope of becoming Syria, Iran, the Ukraine They had corrupt leaders that thought they could do as they liked and nobody would object and when the citizens put their collective foot down they were slapped back by the heavy hand of the Military under the Control of the CORRUPT GOVERNMENT. I fear if the US voters don't put Obama in his place with a very strong message by giving the Republicans total control of the 2nd branch of government you are headed for a CORRUPT DICTATORSHIP ruled by a man with a pen and a very obedient Senate protecting him. :mad:
 

cutterone

Well-known member
I don't think the Dems, Obama, etc have the balls or smarts to do a take over. They would IMO pass just enough legislation to regulate and control but they know the populus or the military would not allow more. What could happen is that when others like Russia or the Chiacoms saw an opertunity they might move in militarily while Obama is picking his nose and we are weak militarily.
 

Steve

Well-known member
What if that were us? I can see the likes of Obama handing us over without a fight. I just can’t imagine our military just standing there watching our sovernty being invaded without lifting a weapon. Could it? Would it? If there was a fight and we lost what would it look like? Would we really ever give in even if our leaders did hand us over and our military defeated?

it already is US... with the influx of illegals.. we are already building th circumstances the Ukraine is seeing..



In the 2001 Ukrainian census, 8,334,100 identified as ethnic Russians (17.3% of the total population), this is the combined figure for persons originating from outside of Ukraine.

anyone have a guess as to how many Hispanics would call themselves Mexican ect before they claim to be American?

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2013/05/01/a-demographic-portrait-of-mexican-origin-hispanics-in-the-united-states/

so in answer to your question.. not only would Obama not fight.. he would even try to make them citizens..

a step the Ukraine took many years ago...
 

Steve

Well-known member
danza retroexcavadora said:
La comunicación efectiva a gran escala se convierten en casi imposible.

жаль, но мой испанский язык немного ржавый.
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Let's change the hypothetical up a bit.

What would the US do in say...South Korea, if the government was overthrown by a bunch of rebel Nazi wanna be's, with known connections to muslim terrorists?

Would they secure their bases with additional troops and equipment, so they existing assests don't fall into the wrong hands?

(did you know that those that took over the government in Ukraine have ties to the chechan terrorist groups?)

obama better send them some weapons, so they can better protect themselves against the Russians.

Something like 80% of Europe's oil/NG flows through Ukraine, from Russia. Russia should have just turned off the taps, until the democratically elected government was put back in power.
 

Tam

Well-known member
The reason the Ukrainian President was tossed was he backed out of an EU deal and was bought off by Putin so Putin would have control over that country again. So Hyp. do you believe the Ukrainian People do not have the right to protest when their leader goes against their wishes of being a part of the EU and is paid off by Putin so he goes back into the arms of the Russia?

The rest of the Ukrainian Government impeached the President for what he did and agreed to hold new elections so what gives Putin the right to step in at all.. When the impeached President ran to Russia whining about being tossed Putin stepped in as he knows the new government will likely back the citizens and go with the EU. What better way to scare the rest of the government into falling in line than to walk over the border and take total control of a small piece of their country and then threaten they will take the rest if they don't fall in line. Putin now owns part of the Ukraine how long will it be before he owns the rest and moves on to the next country. He knows the US will TALK but NOT ACT so what is stopping him?
 

Steve

Well-known member
Something like 80% of Europe's oil/NG flows through Ukraine, from Russia. Russia should have just turned off the taps, until the democratically elected government was put back in power.

why not.. it wouldn't be the first time..

As it has done in the past, Russia is using its role as Europe's dominant natural gas supplier to hold sway over Ukraine and the West.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has a history of shutting off the gas to Ukraine, and there's some concern Mr. Putin might make such a move again

The heating fuel has long been a source of price disputes between the two countries. In January 2009, Russia shut off gas to Ukraine for two weeks, impacting supplies across Southeastern Europe.

economic terrorism isn't much different then putting a gun to their heads.. especially in the cold of winter..
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Tam said:
The reason the Ukrainian President was tossed was he backed out of an EU deal and was bought off by Putin so Putin would have control over that country again. So Hyp. do you believe the Ukrainian People do not have the right to protest when their leader goes against their wishes of being a part of the EU and is paid off by Putin so he goes back into the arms of the Russia?

The rest of the Ukrainian Government impeached the President for what he did and agreed to hold new elections so what gives Putin the right to step in at all.. When the impeached President ran to Russia whining about being tossed Putin stepped in as he knows the new government will likely back the citizens and go with the EU. What better way to scare the rest of the government into falling in line than to walk over the border and take total control of a small piece of their country and then threaten they will take the rest if they don't fall in line. Putin now owns part of the Ukraine how long will it be before he owns the rest and moves on to the next country. He knows the US will TALK but NOT ACT so what is stopping him?

Tam, by many accounts, the citizens did not agree with "being part of the EU"

Think of the debt ridden EU countries at present. Would you want to become part of that socialized group?

Russia is charging the Ukraine about half market value at present for their NG and oil. If Russia charged them full market value, would the Ukraine citizens be as willing to join the EU?

What are the advantages of joining the EU? Taking on part of others debt?

What happens if Europe puts sanctions on Russia? Are they going to do the same, as they did with Iraq...restrict their exports of oil and NG?

Russia supplies 30pc of Europe’s gas demand, with about half of it flowing through the Ukraine, raising fears that further war could lead to shortages and significant price spikes.


Russia has already raised the spectre of another gas war by threatening to revoke a discount to Kiev on gas prices, citing unpaid debts. It had cut prices for Ukraine by a third after now-ousted President Viktor Yanukovich forged closer ties with Moscow in December.

Europe has become less dependent on imports via the Ukraine since a major new gas pipeline from Russia to Germany, Nordstream, opened in 2011.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/10674275/Ukraine-gas-and-oil-prices-rise-amid-fears-of-supply-disruption.html
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Steve said:
Something like 80% of Europe's oil/NG flows through Ukraine, from Russia. Russia should have just turned off the taps, until the democratically elected government was put back in power.

why not.. it wouldn't be the first time..

As it has done in the past, Russia is using its role as Europe's dominant natural gas supplier to hold sway over Ukraine and the West.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has a history of shutting off the gas to Ukraine, and there's some concern Mr. Putin might make such a move again

The heating fuel has long been a source of price disputes between the two countries. In January 2009, Russia shut off gas to Ukraine for two weeks, impacting supplies across Southeastern Europe.

economic terrorism isn't much different then putting a gun to their heads.. especially in the cold of winter..

and thus the reason that the "west" is looking to control Ukraine.

Google shale in the region.

There are many ways to wage "war for oil" and conduct "economic terrorism"
 

Tam

Well-known member
Ukraine appeared as though the worst was behind it as sitting President Yanukovych agreed to make concessions and sign a ‘peace’ deal with the opposition. After an initial truce was announced Feb. 19 however, protestors and riot police faced off once again, and the blood flowed anew in the streets of Kiev. Despite the supposed truce, at least 75 were reported killed in Ukraine’s Kiev following the “agreement.” More than 100 were reported to be injured as the police now officially have received firearms and a green-light from Interior Minister Vitaly Zakharchenko to use live ammunition in dealing with belligerent demonstrators. So as Ukraine has reached an agreement, the questions remains whether it is enough to end the violence and bloodshed in Kiev.

Ukraine’s demonstrations which begun with simple marches and open-air protests, initiated when President Yanukovych snubbed a deal for EU integration, now appear to be anything but simple demonstrations. Kiev is barricaded on multiple fronts, the government building once being used by opposition leaders as a home-base has been firebombed and completely destroyed, burning tires and debris line the streets of Kiev, and opposition members walk the streets looking like masked guerrilla fighters.

The lines of division within the country are not absolutely clear on every point with Ukraine’s oppositions splintering into different factions calling for varying degrees of change to take place. Initially, opposition members and demonstrators began to call for the immediate resignation of President Yanukovych after his decision to snub the EU. Recently however, after much violence, death and injury suffered by both sides, Ukraine’s opposition leaders appear to be considering concessions and early elections as somewhat satisfactory. Whether this will be accepted by demonstrators on the ground however is another story. Rumors are that the opposition is somewhat divided with some still calling for the immediate resignation of Yanukovych, and others considering concessions and negotiations.

Ukraine’s Yanukovych decided to back out of the EU trade deal in favor of closer ties with Russia. The decision appeared to be influenced in part by pressure from Russia’s Vladimir Putin placed on the Ukrainian leader to join the soon to form Eurasian Union, led by Russia. Putin did sweeten his “strong suggestions” by offering Yanukovych some $15 billion, which he later suspended however due in part to Yanukovych’s failure to adequately and quickly restore order in Ukraine. As the recent news of Ukraine reaching a ‘peace’ agreement appears, Russia and the international community will watch and wait to see if it can stop the violence in the streets of Kiev.
http://guardianlv.com/2014/02/ukraine-president-yanukovych-signs-deal-with-opposition-in-hopes-for-peace/

Putin strongly suggested the President enter the Eurasian Union led by Russia and gave him money to buy his support and when the citizens heard they REVOLTED. When the President ran for his own safety to Russia, Putin walked in to take back control of the country.
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
Steve said:
Something like 80% of Europe's oil/NG flows through Ukraine, from Russia. Russia should have just turned off the taps, until the democratically elected government was put back in power.

why not.. it wouldn't be the first time..

As it has done in the past, Russia is using its role as Europe's dominant natural gas supplier to hold sway over Ukraine and the West.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has a history of shutting off the gas to Ukraine, and there's some concern Mr. Putin might make such a move again

The heating fuel has long been a source of price disputes between the two countries. In January 2009, Russia shut off gas to Ukraine for two weeks, impacting supplies across Southeastern Europe.

economic terrorism isn't much different then putting a gun to their heads.. especially in the cold of winter..

and thus the reason that the "west" is looking to control Ukraine.

Google shale in the region.

There are many ways to wage "war for oil" and conduct "economic terrorism"

ya I must have missed the part where we or the EU invaded them...

or the time we shut off their NG in the middle of the winter..

Russia controls the Ukraine through energy extortion.





really .. I can't understand why you are so hell bent on making the Ukraine and US out to be the bad guys in this..

if the EU or US offered financial assistance to develop the Ukraine's' shale gas it would piss off Russia.. because they would lose another customer..

Russia needs Europe and the Ukraine energy dependent on them or the Russian economy will falter..

so any attempt for real independence by the Ukraine is a threat to Russia..
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
so any attempt for real independence by the Ukraine is a threat to Russia..

Yep, just as any attempt for real independence for a US "satelite" is a threat to the US.

not really.. I wouldn't miss Puerto Rico,

I did like Gaum..

but the reality is we have let many countries have their independence despite the possibility of them turning on US

like Cuba.. the Philippines,, the Panama canal to name a few..

sure it hurt when the Philippians kicked Us out of the bases there.. but I don't remember US invading them..

and so far we have honored the base agreement with Cuba.. gave back the Panama canal and left the bases in the Philippians when a mutual agreement couldn't be reached..

so no comparing US satellite relations to Russian is not even a comparison..
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Does the US own part of Cuba?

If you were asked to leave, would you? If you were under threeat of being "over run", would you protect your position and assests?

What's the treaty say?
 
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