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Which heifer??

Angus Cattle Shower

Well-known member
Well, here are three of my lady finalists, not prettied up and still on the cows.

Contestant one:
Breed:Hereford/Black Angus
Sire:Black Angus
Dam:Hereford

cattle1.jpg



Contestant two:
Breed: Supa Baldie
Sire:Supa Baldie (3/8 simmental, 5/8 Red Angus)
Dam:Supa Baldie

cattle3.jpg


Contestant Three:
Breed: Simmental/Angus/Shorthorn
Sire:Supa Baldie
Dam:Angus/Shorthorn F1

cattle4.jpg


Please post which one and reasons!!!!!!
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
I can't see them ACS but I can see number 2 well enough to say she won't work if you're talking about a show heifer. From what little I can see of the other two I like number 3 but she's too short fronted to be wearing purple around here at least.

I forgot to tell you what I didn't like about number 2. She's too sloping in the rump and meatless in the top part of her rump from the pictures.

They are all good looking heifers. Are these your dads that you are picking from?
 

Angus Cattle Shower

Well-known member
Yep greg, she's 1/4 shorthorn. lol.

Dad likes the second one... my fav. I diddnt get a pic of... the winner on here will go head to head in a poll with her lol. Yes, they are all dad's.
 

Ranchy

Well-known member
Hubby likes #3 best.......I prefer #1, but that's just what does well around here.

If ya have one ya like already, just go with that one. Just make sure she's a good snorty one...I know ya like that kind..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Shorthornguy

Well-known member
Number 3. The Simi will give you the frame. The Angus will give you the growth and the Shorthorn will give you the backfat and marbling. That is a good cross. Lotsa Luck!!!
 

Angus Cattle Shower

Well-known member
Ranchy, as soon as the border opens, im gonna send that heifer down south, ya know, the snotty one ya like??? lol.

I looked again today, 1 and 2 are post legged.... I think im gonna go with 3.
 

DOC HARRIS

Well-known member
ACS -

These statements have been reiterated several times on the forums, and here they will appear again todayl

1- You say they are contestants. For what purpose are they competing?
Are you contemplating retaining them for replacements? If so, what are your goals for their progeny - what are their EPD's for BW, Calving Ease, Weaning Weight, Yearling Weight, Milk, and the Carcass Expectations? I assume you would be interested in their potential production abilities for their offspring!?? Would you be satisfied if ALL of their progeny looked and reproduced exactly like their dams?? Do you have any thoughts which bulls you may be using in the future for these calves to improve your genetic herd pool? How do the EPD's of the future sires you plan to use blend or "nick" with the genetics of these calves?

2- In order to do an acceptable job of analyzing these calves, they should NOT be standing in hay or straw, mud, urine and manure because it does not allow them to present themselves in a well-balanced manner so that they can be seen for what they really are. Aside from the fact that mud etc. distorts the phenotype, the wet, muddy, hay bunched surface they are standing on precludes one's viewing their feet, pasterns, or actual body posture.

3- The lighting is not adequate enough to dispell false shadows which will distort the true phenotype of the animal.

4- The camera angle and position is wrong on all three pictures, which gives a false image of what the calves REALLY are - therefore a legitimate ascertainment is impossible in these three cases.

If these opinions sound severe and acerbic, it is because they ARE! To select cattle with these many negatives showing against them is tantamount to 'buying a pig in a poke' or sight unseen! No one can make a determination of what an animal really is, or what their potential is for a show calf, or future breeding possibilities with no more information available on them than is displayed by these pictures, and the lack of other vital information necessary for one to give a justifiable opinion. To select cattle for ANY purpose without being to see what they are is why some herds never seem to be able to improve their quality - in spite of using the good bull ". . .down the road a piece!"

Get the calves by themselves, clean them up, and get the camera angle straight on side, back and front views, and with the lens about 2 feet from the ground. Have them standing looking straight ahead. . . . and on a clean, hard surface, and get CLOSER to them! Then come back and ask these questions again along with some EPD's if they are going into a herd as breeders.

Finally, if you are considering them for a show animal - - -forget all of them - except #3. She MAY have some potential. But it is hard to see it from this picture. Start over.

DOC HARRIS
 

Denny

Well-known member
DOC HARRIS said:
ACS -

These statements have been reiterated several times on the forums, and here they will appear again todayl

1- You say they are contestants. For what purpose are they competing?
Are you contemplating retaining them for replacements? If so, what are your goals for their progeny - what are their EPD's for BW, Calving Ease, Weaning Weight, Yearling Weight, Milk, and the Carcass Expectations? I assume you would be interested in their potential production abilities for their offspring!?? Would you be satisfied if ALL of their progeny looked and reproduced exactly like their dams?? Do you have any thoughts which bulls you may be using in the future for these calves to improve your genetic herd pool? How do the EPD's of the future sires you plan to use blend or "nick" with the genetics of these calves?

2- In order to do an acceptable job of analyzing these calves, they should NOT be standing in hay or straw, mud, urine and manure because it does not allow them to present themselves in a well-balanced manner so that they can be seen for what they really are. Aside from the fact that mud etc. distorts the phenotype, the wet, muddy, hay bunched surface they are standing on precludes one's viewing their feet, pasterns, or actual body posture.

3- The lighting is not adequate enough to dispell false shadows which will distort the true phenotype of the animal.

4- The camera angle and position is wrong on all three pictures, which gives a false image of what the calves REALLY are - therefore a legitimate ascertainment is impossible in these three cases.

If these opinions sound severe and acerbic, it is because they ARE! To select cattle with these many negatives showing against them is tantamount to 'buying a pig in a poke' or sight unseen! No one can make a determination of what an animal really is, or what their potential is for a show calf, or future breeding possibilities with no more information available on them than is displayed by these pictures, and the lack of other vital information necessary for one to give a justifiable opinion. To select cattle for ANY purpose without being to see what they are is why some herds never seem to be able to improve their quality - in spite of using the good bull ". . .down the road a piece!"

Get the calves by themselves, clean them up, and get the camera angle straight on side, back and front views, and with the lens about 2 feet from the ground. Have them standing looking straight ahead. . . . and on a clean, hard surface, and get CLOSER to them! Then come back and ask these questions again along with some EPD's if they are going into a herd as breeders.

Finally, if you are considering them for a show animal - - -forget all of them - except #3. She MAY have some potential. But it is hard to see it from this picture. Start over.

DOC HARRIS

They are for his 4-H projects and any fool can see they are crossbred cattle you and those EPD's.

EPD's are a tool nothing more I have alot of heifers in my heifer pen that god only knows their epd's and he's not talking.A good eye and a tight budget will get you alot farther than any epd's in the cow business.

So what are the EPD'S on your replacement heifers DOC ?
 

DOC HARRIS

Well-known member
Wow! It is getting to the point where if the term "EPD's" are mentioned, great vituperation flows through these posts like water off of a roof! I have a difficult time understanding the strange "Love-Hate" attitude that prevails in the discussions concerning the evidence and manifestations of legitimate datum surrounding the usage of the TOOL of Expected Progeny Differences! It has digressed to a point of WAR between the users and the non-users! If the point of contention regarding EPD's was their actual unreliability, I might be able to understand the fury which some people display. But the credibility of their appropriatness and expedience in the improvement of cattle quality is NOT in question. In the mind's of some, it is whether the breeder's of beef cattle who utilize EPD's are liars - or not!

Here was my original statement concerning this post:
1- You say they are contestants. For what purpose are they competing?

To my way of thinking, that precludes the ensuing argument regarding whether or not the calves were purebred, crossbred, or composites! It makes NO DIFFERENCE. Whatever the calves were being prepared for - the primary factors I was addressing were the fact that the pictures were not adeqauate for the instigation of a healthy or helpful debate or discussion! The original post did NOT state that the calves were for a 4H project! And even if we were informed of that fact - the pictures were not sufficient to make decisions as to which one should be considered for -what??

Denny - I see that you were eager to "take up the cudgels" in defense of Angus Cattle Shower, which leads me to assume that you are a parent. If so, I understand your protective demeanor, however - harsh lessons are usually the one's which are not easily forgotten. It might be to the advantage of Angus Cattle Shower for you to capitalize on the subject at hand and call attention to the 'Positive' aspects of this discussion instead of protectively shielding the negative one's.

EPD's notwithstanding.

DOC HARRIS
 

Angus Cattle Shower

Well-known member
Brain fart, WAAAAAAAAYY too many big words. lol.

DOC,

I just put the poll up for fun, to see who agreed with my choice. They were competing to have the privellige of biing my 4H heifer for the year.

Every animal has a bad side, so I took shots from differing angles, so that we could see the pics from different stances. We just got them home from the community pasture, so they were in the mud lots that day.

Ive used EPD's in the past, and so has Dad, but I( have found them to be a load of bull.... never guessed right for me... JMHO

Have a good one
 

DOC HARRIS

Well-known member
EPD's are a tool nothing more I have alot of heifers in my heifer pen that god only knows their epd's and he's not talking.A good eye and a tight budget will get you alot farther than any epd's in the cow business.

So what are the EPD'S on your replacement heifers DOC ?
Denny- You are absolutely correct! EPD's are TOOL - but a lot more than "....nothing more." As with any tool, if they are utilized in the manner in which they were designed, they WILL be a valuable tool for the benefit of the user! A screwdriver should not be used as a wrecking bar, and a chisel should not be used as a screwdriver. . . .and GOD does know the epd's of your heifers - and He IS talking if you will but listen.

As I have stated in the past - I have no heifers or cows at the present time, therefore I also have no replacement heifers. But IF I DID have replacement heifers, purebred, crossbred or composites, you can bet your next sale barn check I would certainly KNOW what their EPD's and phenotype's were, and how to use them to my financial advantage!!

From this point on - arguments AGAINST the use of EPD's are specious.

DOC HARRIS
 

Ranchy

Well-known member
Angus Cattle Shower said:
Ranchy, as soon as the border opens, im gonna send that heifer down south, ya know, the snotty one ya like??? lol.

I looked again today, 1 and 2 are post legged.... I think im gonna go with 3.

Oh, ACS............................ :p :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hubby was giving me one of those "looks" when I wrote that, so I had to tell him the story......he ended up :lol: :lol: :lol: too, before I was finished with it....... :wink:

Just hope ya have better luck with gentling this one down......:nod:
 
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