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Will Buckwheat Honor U.S. Treaty To Defend Ukraine?

Mike

Well-known member
Treaty which could drag the US and UK into WAR with Russia
Mail Online | 28 Feb 2014 | Reilly and Edmonds


A treaty signed in 1994 by the US and Britain could pull both countries into a war to protect Ukraine if President Putin's troops cross into the country.

Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma – the then-rulers of the USA, UK, Russia and Ukraine - agreed to the The Budapest Memorandum as part of the denuclearization of former Soviet republics after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Technically it means that if Russia has invaded Ukraine then it would be difficult for the US and Britain to avoid going to war.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html#ixzz2uwHeAbGQ Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Did Russia invade the Ukraine, or just move more troops/equipment to their established naval yards and bases?

Crimea is also an autonomous republic.
 

Mike

Well-known member
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is an international treaty signed on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories in connection to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear-powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France later gave individual statements of assurance as well.

The deal included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996.

Following the 2014 Crimean crisis, the US stated that Russian involvement is in breach of its obligations to Ukraine under the Budapest Memorandum, and in clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity.
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Mike said:
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is an international treaty signed on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories in connection to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear-powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France later gave individual statements of assurance as well.

The deal included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996.

Following the 2014 Crimean crisis, the US stated that Russian involvement is in breach of its obligations to Ukraine under the Budapest Memorandum, and in clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Reading the quote that you posted, it does not mentioned their established bases in an autonomous republic. Looks like it is a "grey area" Which Putin is no doubt aware of.

IMO, Russia has yet to use "force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine"

But I am not aware of the troop numbers, or equipment they are allowed to have in the region, under any agreement.

But they do have bases in Crimea and those haven't been considered an invasion, until now.
 

Tam

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
Mike said:
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is an international treaty signed on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories in connection to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear-powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France later gave individual statements of assurance as well.

The deal included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996.

Following the 2014 Crimean crisis, the US stated that Russian involvement is in breach of its obligations to Ukraine under the Budapest Memorandum, and in clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Reading the quote that you posted, it does not mentioned their established bases in an autonomous republic. Looks like it is a "grey area" Which Putin is no doubt aware of.

IMO, Russia has yet to use "force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine"

But I am not aware of the troop numbers, or equipment they are allowed to have in the region, under any agreement.

But they do have bases in Crimea and those haven't been considered an invasion, until now.

SEVASTOPOL, Ukraine — The embattled government in Kiev said Monday night that Russian forces had dramatically escalated the standoff between the two nations by giving Ukraine’s army and navy in Crimea a blunt ultimatum: Pledge allegiance to the region’s new pro-Russia leadership by morning or be forced by Russia to submit.

Just what do you think Putin is willing to do to get them to SUBMIT.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/currencies-of-russia-ukraine-fall-monday/2014/03/03/5f3af2c2-a2c9-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Tam said:
Just what do you think Putin is willing to do to get them to SUBMIT.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/currencies-of-russia-ukraine-fall-monday/2014/03/03/5f3af2c2-a2c9-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html

I'm thinking we have to be careful of believing propaganda from either side.

any time you have a suspected Soros funding of a "revolt", or overthrow of a government, you've really got to wonder what is the "truth"

I also wonder at the "left" believing Europe's opinion of what is going on, when they are so quick to demonize the "big banks" of Europe and their manipulation of US markets/economy.

they are very quick to accuse, but also quick to support, when it means an expansion of power/control.
 

Tam

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
Tam said:
Just what do you think Putin is willing to do to get them to SUBMIT.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/currencies-of-russia-ukraine-fall-monday/2014/03/03/5f3af2c2-a2c9-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html

I'm thinking we have to be careful of believing propaganda from either side.

any time you have a suspected Soros funding of a "revolt", or overthrow of a government, you've really got to wonder what is the "truth"

I also wonder at the "left" believing Europe's opinion of what is going on, when they are so quick to demonize the "big banks" of Europe and their manipulation of US markets/economy.

they are very quick to accuse, but also quick to support, when it means an expansion of power/control.

How many armed to the teeth troops in a neighboring country is two many?

Ukraine's mission to the United Nations is claiming that 16,000 Russian troops have been deployed in the strategic Crimea region, while Russia's UN ambassador told the council Monday that Ukraine's fugitive president requested troops

Did the Russia Ambassador deny the 16000 Russia troops were in the neighboring country NO. He said the fugitive President requested they be there.

Again the Ukrainian government LEGALLY IMPEACHED the President so he should not have a say in sending Russian troops into a country that DOES NOT WANT HIM AS A PRESIDENT ANY LONGER. Russia needs to stay out of it but PUTIN will not as he wants control of the Ukraine and it's people and they don't want anything to do with him hence the PROTESTS when the "FUGITIVE" President went against the wants of the citizens and sold out to Putin.
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
Did Russia invade the Ukraine, or just move more troops/equipment to their established naval yards and bases?

Crimea is also an autonomous republic.

it is part of the Ukraine and is recognized in several treaties with Russia..

we have a naval base in Cuba.. that doesn't give US the right to invade Cuba..





Russians demand Ukraine warships surrender; Russians seize ‘practically all’ Crimea military sites

KYIV, UKRAINE—Russia issued an ultimatum Monday, demanding that the crew of two Ukrainian warships in Crimea immediately surrender or be stormed and seized, a Ukrainian military spokesman said.

Four Russian navy ships in Sevastopol harbour were blocking the Ukrainian anti-submarine warship Ternopil and the command ship Slavutych from leaving the dock, waiting for their commanders' responses, spokesman Maksim Prauta said.

Elsewhere on the strategic peninsula, Russian troops controlled all Ukrainian border posts Monday in Crimea, as well as all military facilities and a key ferry terminal. Now, fears in Kyiv and beyond were that Russia might target and seize other parts of Ukraine, in particular parts of its pro-Russian east, the country's industrial powerhouse and agricultural breadbasket.

In addition to seizing barracks and border posts, troops also controlled a ferry terminal in the Ukrainian city of Kerch, just 20 kilometres across the water from Russia. That intensified fears in Kyiv that Moscow will send even more troops into the peninsula via that route.

Border guard spokesman Sergei Astakhov said the Russians were demanding that Ukrainian soldiers and guards transfer their allegiance to Crimea's new pro-Russian local government.

“The Russians are behaving very aggressively. They came in by breaking down doors, knocking out windows, cutting off every communication,” he said.

He said four Russian military ships, 13 helicopters and 8 transport planes had arrived in Crimea in violation of agreements that permit Russian to keep its Black Sea fleet at the naval base in Sevastopol.

so far everything I have read. .says this is an invasion..
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
How many armed to the teeth troops in a neighboring country is two many?

Russia IS a neighbouring Country. Would it make Kiev feel more secure if Russia had 100,000 sitting in Russia, 2km from Crimea?

And they, Russia, have 1000s of troops there permanently and more expand those numbers annually for exercises.

Just last year, there were an additional 7000 Russian troops that participated in exercises to show how they were willing to protect the Ukraine.
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
How many armed to the teeth troops in a neighboring country is two many?

Russia IS a neighbouring Country. Would it make Kiev feel more secure if Russia had 100,000 sitting in Russia, 2km from Crimea?

And they, Russia, have 1000s of troops there permanently and more expand those numbers annually for exercises.

Just last year, there were an additional 7000 Russian troops that participated in exercises to show how they were willing to protect the Ukraine.

Mexico and Canada are neighboring countries.. and over the years we have supported each other... but if we took over part of either country it would still be wrong..

there is no excuse for invading a neighbor.. especially one who is no threat to you at all..

Russia and Putin are acting like bullies.. stomping on a friendly neighbor..

but instead of going back to WWII sentiments.. how about showing one modern instance where the Ukraine provoked Russia..
 

Steve

Well-known member
Would it make Kiev feel more secure if Russia had 100,000 sitting in Russia, 2km from Crimea?

I would assume they would be a bit nervous.. as it does with the Russian war games going on just to intimidate them..


but that isn't the case.. not only is Russia playing war games on their border.. but Russia has them IN Ukrainian territory not near..

it is an invasion..
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Canada, the US and Russia are all neighbours. Do any of us infringe, or attempt to claim the other's territory?

Does the US military ever infringe on Canada's territory? Do we call it an "invasion" when they do?

The US acts like a bully everyday. My brother acts like a bully too.

The protesters in Ukraine acted like bullies to get their way.
 

Tam

Well-known member
What is the difference between the Ukrainian citizens protesting their government to what happen in DC today. I'll tell you their President tried to control them with GUN FIRE. When that did not work he ran to Russia and sent in BIGGER GUNS PUTINS GUNS.

KIEV, Ukraine — Security forces fired on masses of antigovernment demonstrators in Kiev on Thursday in a drastic escalation of the three-month-old crisis that left dozens dead and Ukraine reeling from the most lethal day of violence since Soviet times.

The shootings followed a quickly shattered truce, with enraged protesters parading dozens of captured police officers through Kiev’s central square. Despite a frenzy of East-West diplomacy and negotiations, there was little sign that tensions were easing.

President Viktor F. Yanukovych lost at least a dozen political allies, including the mayor of the capital, who resigned from his governing Party of Regions to protest the bloodshed. Mr. Yanukovych conferred with three foreign ministers from the European Union who had come to press for a compromise solution, practically within sight of the main conflict zone in downtown Kiev.

The sights of bullet-riddled bodies slumped amid smoldering debris, some of them shot in the head, and screaming medics carrying the dead and wounded to emergency clinics, including one in a hotel lobby, shocked the country and the world. The opposition said that at least 70 and as many as 100 people had been killed, while municipal authorities put the day’s death toll at 39

U.S. Sens. John McCain and Chris Murphy joined the anti-government demonstration to express support for them and their European ambitions, threatening sanctions against the government of President Viktor Yanukovych if authorities use more violence to disperse the protests.

The protests began Nov. 21 after Yanukovych announced he was backing away from signing a long-awaited agreement to deepen trade and political ties with the EU and instead focus on Russia, and have grown in size and intensity after two violent police dispersals.

In the face of the protests, which present a serious challenge to Yanukovych’s leadership, Ukrainian officials this week renewed talks with the EU agreement and promised that they would sign the deal once some issues are worked out.

However, the EU’s top official on expansion issues, Stefan Fuele, cast doubt on the prospect Sunday, saying on his Twitter account that work is “on hold” and that the words and actions of Yanukovych and his government are “further and further apart.”

Yanukovych backed off the agreement on the grounds that the EU was not providing adequate compensation to his economically struggling nation for potential trades losses with Russia. Russia, which for centuries controlled or exerted heavy influence on Ukraine, wants the country to join a customs union, analogous to the EU, which also includes Belarus and Kazakhstan.

The opposition says that union would effectively reconstitute the Soviet Union and remain suspicious that Yanukovych might agree to it when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday.

Arseniy Yatsenyk, a top opposition leader, warned Yanukovych against making such a move.

“If the agreement is signed, he can remain in Moscow and not return to Kyiv,” Yatsenyuk told the crowd at the protest on Independence Square, also known as the Maidan.

Yuri Lutsenko, another opposition politician and former interior minister, told the protesters they were fighting for Ukraine’s independence.

“What is happening on the Maidan today? It is an anticolonial revolution,” he said. “Above all, Ukrainians turned out to say to Moscow: ‘We are no longer under your command, we are an independent country.”

McCain, a Republican, and Murphy, a Democrat, told reporters after the rally that sanctions were possible and “that there will be consequences to our relationship if there is any more violence on the streets of Kyiv.”

We are here because your peaceful process and peaceful protest is inspiring your country and inspiring the world,” McCain told protesters. “Ukraine will make Europe better and Europe will make Ukraine better.”
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Tam said:
What is the difference between the Ukrainian citizens protesting their government to what happen in DC today.

fires, torching buildings, killings of those that don't agree with you, would be my first guess.

but I haven't watched the videos of the DC protests.

Do you not think obama would not bring out gunfire, if you tried to storm the castle?
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
Canada, the US and Russia are all neighbours. Do any of us infringe, or attempt to claim the other's territory?

Does the US military ever infringe on Canada's territory? Do we call it an "invasion" when they do?

The US acts like a bully everyday. My brother acts like a bully too.

The protesters in Ukraine acted like bullies to get their way.


yes.. Russia sold US a chunk of land and a bunch of islands.. and then tried to take back a few of the islands..

then there was the Spanish - American war..

the war of 1812
, the British at first used a defensive strategy, repelling multiple American invasions of the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada. The Americans gained control over Lake Erie in 1813, seized parts of western Ontario. In Upper and Lower Canada, British and Provincial militia victories over invading American armies became iconic and promoted the development of a distinct Canadian identity which included strong loyalty to Britain. Today, particularly in loyalist-founded Ontario, memory of the war retains its significance because the defeat of the invasions ensured that the Canadas would remain part of the British Empire rather than be annexed by the United States. In Canada, numerous ceremonies took place in 2012 to commemorate the war

and that is just the major conflicts ,...
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
is Canada having to send troops to the arctic, to re-establiish our ownership?

If it is the US', are we invading?

Are any other Countries sending troops to establish ownership?
 

Steve

Well-known member
The US acts like a bully everyday. My brother acts like a bully too.

The protesters in Ukraine acted like bullies to get their way

so darn them bullies.. boy are you going to show them.. yep.. you really did it.. you sided with Russia.. that'll show em..



kidding aside.. do you really think Russia is not a bully?

as a country.. they committed genocide in the Ukraine..

Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.

At the height of the Famine Ukrainian villagers were dying at the rate of 25,000 per day or 1,000 per hour or 17 per minute.
Among the children one in three perished as a consequence of collectivization and the famine.
According to dissident Soviet demographer M. Maksudov "no fewer than three million children born between 1932-1933 died of hunger."
80% of Ukrainian intellectuals were liquidated because they refused to collaborate in the extermination of their countrymen.
Out of about 240 Ukrainian authors 200 were liquidated or disappeared. Out of about 84 linguists 62 perished.
The Ukrainian population may have been reduced by as much as 25%.
 

Tam

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
Tam said:
What is the difference between the Ukrainian citizens protesting their government to what happen in DC today.

fires, torching buildings, killings of those that don't agree with you, would be my first guess.

but I haven't watched the videos of the DC protests.

Do you not think obama would not bring out gunfire, if you tried to storm the castle?

I went back and highlighted the McCain comment that said the Protests were peaceful when he was there attending them and just maybe the burning of buildings started due to the fact a 100 or so of their own were shot down in cold blood by the President's Security Forces. Do you think the President would have lost so many allies if he was in the right and the Protestors were the one that started the violence?
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Steve said:
The US acts like a bully everyday. My brother acts like a bully too.

The protesters in Ukraine acted like bullies to get their way

so darn them bullies.. boy are you going to show them.. yep.. you really did it.. you sided with Russia.. that'll show em..



kidding aside.. do you really think Russia is not a bully?

as a country.. they committed genocide in the Ukraine..

Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.

At the height of the Famine Ukrainian villagers were dying at the rate of 25,000 per day or 1,000 per hour or 17 per minute.
Among the children one in three perished as a consequence of collectivization and the famine.
According to dissident Soviet demographer M. Maksudov "no fewer than three million children born between 1932-1933 died of hunger."
80% of Ukrainian intellectuals were liquidated because they refused to collaborate in the extermination of their countrymen.
Out of about 240 Ukrainian authors 200 were liquidated or disappeared. Out of about 84 linguists 62 perished.
The Ukrainian population may have been reduced by as much as 25%.

i think Russia is a bully, as much as the US and Europe are.

All superpowers are guilty, of being bullies, that is how they became superpowers.
 
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