The Liberals wanted to toss Bush and Cheney in a foreign jail for war crimes even though the evidence did not prove anything. So will they now demand Holder and others in Obama's Administration face charges in Mexico when the evidence proves their actions resulted in hundreds of peoples deaths including a US border agent's?
Will they face charges?
- Thread starter Tam
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The Liberals wanted to toss Bush and Cheney in a foreign jail for war crimes even though the evidence did not prove anything. So will they now demand Holder and others in Obama's Administration face charges in Mexico when the evidence proves their actions resulted in hundreds of peoples deaths including a US border agent's?
Steve
Well-known member
aside from what the liberals think....... or don't think on the issue..
and for as much as i think the Obama administration screwed the gun runner crap up royally..
in my opinion.. Mexico has enough problems,.. so for them to want to take on the US government, let alone the Obama administration, is about as dumb as it can get.. :roll:
and for as much as i think the Obama administration screwed the gun runner crap up royally..
in my opinion.. Mexico has enough problems,.. so for them to want to take on the US government, let alone the Obama administration, is about as dumb as it can get.. :roll:
Huh, so the white house is okay with Mexico suing Arizona for it upholding Federal law (that Mexico has no real stake in), but is not okay with Mexico wanting to hold U.S. officials responsible for not upholding Federal law (that caused a valid injury to Mexico).
Now I understand. :roll: So who is going to save us from our Dictator?
Now I understand. :roll: So who is going to save us from our Dictator?
One of those thousand plus guns that the US government sold to the Mexican drug cartels has already killed a US border agent. One has to wonder just how many more Mexican and US citizens are going to die due to the Justice Departments illegal gun running operation? I hope the Republicans investigste this and turn the crooks over to the Mexican government even if the investigation leads them right to Holder's and Obama's office doors. After all the crap this Administration has done I think I would like to see Obama's face behind bars in Mexico. :wink:
Oldtimer, I hope you've been keeping up with this case and not just spending all of your time with the other women glued to the Casey Anthony trial.
It's way past time for this cover-up to stop. It's time for Eric Holder to go, and it's time for you to call for his firing, Oldtimer. It's time for you to show a little ethics-based consistency instead of your usual hypocritical partisanship.
We all know what you would have said if this was happening under President Bush. Will you have the integrity to finally speak out against your guy? It's really not that difficult...
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ATF chief: Higher-ups at Justice blocked response to Congress
The Justice Department blocked senior ATF leaders from cooperating with Congress in its investigation of the "Fast and Furious" weapons operation, ordering them not to respond to questions and taking full control of replying to briefing and document requests, the agency's top boss told congressional investigators.
Kenneth E. Melson, the embattled acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, told Senate Judiciary Committee and House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform investigators during a secret interview designed to circumvent Justice Department attorneys that he was "sick to his stomach" when he learned about problems with the controversial operation.
According to a letter to Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., Mr. Melson told the panel's investigators that after he and ATF's senior leadership team reassigned every manager involved in Operation Fast and Furious, they were prohibited from telling Congress about the reassignments.
Mr. Melson was secretly interviewed Monday by investigators from the two committees, who have been looking into accusations that ATF allowed the sale of thousands of weapons to "straw buyers" in Arizona and Texas that later were "walked" unchecked to drug smugglers in Mexico.
At least three of those weapons, including two AK-47 assault rifles, later were discovered at two sites where U.S. law enforcement officials were slain. U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agent Jaime Zapata was killed in a daylight ambush on a major Mexican highway, and U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian A. Terry died in a shooting with bandits just north of the Arizona-Mexico border.
Sen. Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, and Rep. Darrell Issa, California Republican and chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, have unsuccessfully sought information on the Fast and Furious operation over the past several months.
Part of ATF's "Project Gunrunner," Operation Fast and Furious was highly touted by the Obama administration. With pressure mounting from the Justice Department and the White House, Mr. Melson has resisted efforts to resign or be fired.
Mr. Melson originally had been scheduled by the Justice Department to be interviewed July 13, with attorneys from both the department and ATF present. Instead, he opted to appear before the investigators in a voluntary interview Monday with his personal attorney, Richard Cullen.
In the letter Tuesday to Mr. Holder, Mr. Grassley and Mr. Issa said they were "disappointed" that the Justice Department failed to tell Mr. Melson he had the right to choose a voluntary interview rather than participate with counsel representing the department's interests.
The two Republican lawmakers accused the Justice Department of seeking to "limit and control his communications with Congress."
The lawmakers accused the department of "muzzling" Mr. Melson and encouraged Mr. Holder not to retaliate against the director, describing as "inappropriate" any effort to make him the "fall guy in an attempt to prevent further congressional oversight."
Mr. Melson also told the investigators that some of the suspected gun traffickers targeted by ATF in the Fast and Furious probe may actually have been informants for the FBI and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) - without ATF's knowledge.
"We have very real indications from several sources that some of the gun-trafficking 'higher-ups' that the ATF sought to identify were already known to other agencies and may even have been paid as informants," Mr. Grassley and Mr. Issa wrote. "The acting director said ATF was kept in the dark about certain activities of other agencies, including DEA and FBI."
The lawmakers said Mr. Melson learned from ATF field agents that information obtained by these agencies could have had a material impact on the Operation Fast and Furious investigation.
Mr. Melson also confirmed concerns expressed by several ATF agents during their recent testimony before Mr. Issa's committee that while they witnessed the transfer of weapons from the straw buyers to others, they were not allowed to follow the guns further as they made their way to Mexico.
He told the investigators, according to the letter, that he became aware of "this startling possibility only after the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and the indictments of the straw purchasers, which we now know were substantially delayed by the U.S. attorney's office and Main Justice."
"It is one thing to argue that the ends justify the means in an attempt to defend a policy that puts building a big case ahead of stopping known criminals from getting guns," Mr. Grassley and Mr. Issa wrote. "Yet it is a much more serious matter to conceal from Congress the possible involvement of other agencies in identifying and maybe even working with the same criminals that Operation Fast and Furious was trying to identify.
"If this information is accurate, then the whole misguided operation might have been cut short if not for catastrophic failures to share key information," they said.
The Feb. 15 shooting of Zapata was the second time authorities discovered that at least one of the weapons found at the killing site was traceable to a suspect under surveillance by the ATF. Two of the weapons found at the site of the Dec. 15 killing of Terry were traced to straw buyers in Arizona who had "walked" the guns to Mexican drug smugglers.
Mr. Holder has asked the Justice Department's office of inspector general to investigate the matter.
In a response letter to Mr. Grassley and Mr. Issa on Wednesday, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich said the Justice Department "in no way sought to limit appropriate access to information concerning Operation Fast and Furious."
Like Congress, he said, the Justice Department "is deeply interested in understanding the facts" surrounding the operation and had assigned "dozens of attorneys and reviewers to work on the committee's extremely broad requests for information."
Mr. Weich also said the Justice Department was "puzzled" by criticism that it had failed to produce documents and make witnesses available, noting that more than 2,000 pages of documents had been produced to the committee or made available for review.
He said the lawmakers' letter "unfairly criticizes both the department's efforts to address the committee's concerns and the integrity of the professionals at the department who worked long hours to make responsive information available to you."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/6/atf-chief-says-higher-ups-blocked-replies-congress/
It's way past time for this cover-up to stop. It's time for Eric Holder to go, and it's time for you to call for his firing, Oldtimer. It's time for you to show a little ethics-based consistency instead of your usual hypocritical partisanship.
We all know what you would have said if this was happening under President Bush. Will you have the integrity to finally speak out against your guy? It's really not that difficult...
==============================
ATF chief: Higher-ups at Justice blocked response to Congress
The Justice Department blocked senior ATF leaders from cooperating with Congress in its investigation of the "Fast and Furious" weapons operation, ordering them not to respond to questions and taking full control of replying to briefing and document requests, the agency's top boss told congressional investigators.
Kenneth E. Melson, the embattled acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, told Senate Judiciary Committee and House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform investigators during a secret interview designed to circumvent Justice Department attorneys that he was "sick to his stomach" when he learned about problems with the controversial operation.
According to a letter to Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., Mr. Melson told the panel's investigators that after he and ATF's senior leadership team reassigned every manager involved in Operation Fast and Furious, they were prohibited from telling Congress about the reassignments.
Mr. Melson was secretly interviewed Monday by investigators from the two committees, who have been looking into accusations that ATF allowed the sale of thousands of weapons to "straw buyers" in Arizona and Texas that later were "walked" unchecked to drug smugglers in Mexico.
At least three of those weapons, including two AK-47 assault rifles, later were discovered at two sites where U.S. law enforcement officials were slain. U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agent Jaime Zapata was killed in a daylight ambush on a major Mexican highway, and U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian A. Terry died in a shooting with bandits just north of the Arizona-Mexico border.
Sen. Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, and Rep. Darrell Issa, California Republican and chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, have unsuccessfully sought information on the Fast and Furious operation over the past several months.
Part of ATF's "Project Gunrunner," Operation Fast and Furious was highly touted by the Obama administration. With pressure mounting from the Justice Department and the White House, Mr. Melson has resisted efforts to resign or be fired.
Mr. Melson originally had been scheduled by the Justice Department to be interviewed July 13, with attorneys from both the department and ATF present. Instead, he opted to appear before the investigators in a voluntary interview Monday with his personal attorney, Richard Cullen.
In the letter Tuesday to Mr. Holder, Mr. Grassley and Mr. Issa said they were "disappointed" that the Justice Department failed to tell Mr. Melson he had the right to choose a voluntary interview rather than participate with counsel representing the department's interests.
The two Republican lawmakers accused the Justice Department of seeking to "limit and control his communications with Congress."
The lawmakers accused the department of "muzzling" Mr. Melson and encouraged Mr. Holder not to retaliate against the director, describing as "inappropriate" any effort to make him the "fall guy in an attempt to prevent further congressional oversight."
Mr. Melson also told the investigators that some of the suspected gun traffickers targeted by ATF in the Fast and Furious probe may actually have been informants for the FBI and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) - without ATF's knowledge.
"We have very real indications from several sources that some of the gun-trafficking 'higher-ups' that the ATF sought to identify were already known to other agencies and may even have been paid as informants," Mr. Grassley and Mr. Issa wrote. "The acting director said ATF was kept in the dark about certain activities of other agencies, including DEA and FBI."
The lawmakers said Mr. Melson learned from ATF field agents that information obtained by these agencies could have had a material impact on the Operation Fast and Furious investigation.
Mr. Melson also confirmed concerns expressed by several ATF agents during their recent testimony before Mr. Issa's committee that while they witnessed the transfer of weapons from the straw buyers to others, they were not allowed to follow the guns further as they made their way to Mexico.
He told the investigators, according to the letter, that he became aware of "this startling possibility only after the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and the indictments of the straw purchasers, which we now know were substantially delayed by the U.S. attorney's office and Main Justice."
"It is one thing to argue that the ends justify the means in an attempt to defend a policy that puts building a big case ahead of stopping known criminals from getting guns," Mr. Grassley and Mr. Issa wrote. "Yet it is a much more serious matter to conceal from Congress the possible involvement of other agencies in identifying and maybe even working with the same criminals that Operation Fast and Furious was trying to identify.
"If this information is accurate, then the whole misguided operation might have been cut short if not for catastrophic failures to share key information," they said.
The Feb. 15 shooting of Zapata was the second time authorities discovered that at least one of the weapons found at the killing site was traceable to a suspect under surveillance by the ATF. Two of the weapons found at the site of the Dec. 15 killing of Terry were traced to straw buyers in Arizona who had "walked" the guns to Mexican drug smugglers.
Mr. Holder has asked the Justice Department's office of inspector general to investigate the matter.
In a response letter to Mr. Grassley and Mr. Issa on Wednesday, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich said the Justice Department "in no way sought to limit appropriate access to information concerning Operation Fast and Furious."
Like Congress, he said, the Justice Department "is deeply interested in understanding the facts" surrounding the operation and had assigned "dozens of attorneys and reviewers to work on the committee's extremely broad requests for information."
Mr. Weich also said the Justice Department was "puzzled" by criticism that it had failed to produce documents and make witnesses available, noting that more than 2,000 pages of documents had been produced to the committee or made available for review.
He said the lawmakers' letter "unfairly criticizes both the department's efforts to address the committee's concerns and the integrity of the professionals at the department who worked long hours to make responsive information available to you."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/6/atf-chief-says-higher-ups-blocked-replies-congress/
Mike
Well-known member
You're wasting your time wanting integrity from that fat sum-biatch.
Oh he definatly is looking for a way to blame BUSH, he cannot sleep at night if he can't 
Probabally sat on a bar stool at the local water hole watching the Anthony trial in the tube and telling anyone who would listen how he would rule on it!! :wink: :wink:with his strong legal back ground an all he woulod know all the ends and outs :wink:
Probabally sat on a bar stool at the local water hole watching the Anthony trial in the tube and telling anyone who would listen how he would rule on it!! :wink: :wink:with his strong legal back ground an all he woulod know all the ends and outs :wink:
I was just back on the boarder last week. Talked to someone who is friends with a special agent. Last year, there was a stop made for concern of narcotics coming across from Mexico to US- after letting them come some distance into the US. Instead, of finding narcotics, they found 2 or 3 vehicles packed full of weapons. After making a call to their supervisor, supervisor called them back and notified them to let them go. Agents couldn't believe what they were asking them to do, and fought the decision but were forced to let the cars go. To say the least, they were hot! Hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of guns set free on the US public.
So Holder/Obama isn't just funding Mexican Cartels in Mexico, they are making sure the wrong guys are well armed here as well. Maybe this was phase 2?
So Holder/Obama isn't just funding Mexican Cartels in Mexico, they are making sure the wrong guys are well armed here as well. Maybe this was phase 2?
okfarmer said:
Let us hope not!!!
This drug and violence thing within Mexico and bordering the U.S. is very serious. I think I would rank it more serious as the war in Afghanistan at this point in time. You would think the FBI would be working it as much as they could on our side of the border with the CIA on the other. Incompetence just can not be tolerated.
Tex
