You Would be Crazy not to Test!

[redrobin]

The 3 words "Expected Progeny Differences" tell the whole story. The word "expected" is not absolute but the best thing we have at this time.

Hogwash. Why don't they use epd's in "predicting" genetic disorders in the angus breed instead of dna if epd's are so superior? My only point and my point of which I am firmly convinced is that environment plays a part in why pig epd's are always going to be more predictable. Nothing more.

 

[RSL]

The 3 words "Expected Progeny Differences" tell the whole story. The word "expected" is not absolute but the best thing we have at this time.

Hogwash. Why don't they use epd's in "predicting" genetic disorders in the angus breed instead of dna if epd's are so superior? My only point and my point of which I am firmly convinced is that environment plays a part in why pig epd's are always going to be more predictable. Nothing more.

Genetic disorders are single gene and fairly black and white. EPD work well for traits that are more continuous or complex. I agree that the speed and quality of information generation from pig data is superior to beef data in general. Shorter generation interval, larger litters and perhaps a smaller environmental influence mean that each Contemporary Group may be more informative. The other big factor is that there may be better defined selection goals with pigs as the end market and production system may not have quite the range of variation that beef does.

 

[Mike]

The 3 words "Expected Progeny Differences" tell the whole story. The word "expected" is not absolute but the best thing we have at this time.

Hogwash. Why don't they use epd's in "predicting" genetic disorders in the angus breed instead of dna if epd's are so superior? My only point and my point of which I am firmly convinced is that environment plays a part in why pig epd's are always going to be more predictable. Nothing more.

Speaking of Hogwash. EPD'S aren't for predicting "disorders".

They are for comparing traits used to assist in determining production value.

Who said EPD's are superior to DNA markers? Both used in conjunction will definitely be "Superior" to the old method of "drawing straws"........pun intended.

 

[PATB]

A regional ag paper I get had an article about this reasearch and it was funded in part by Zoetis (phizer).

 

[burnt]

When it comes to this stuff, I don't know nothin' about nothin', but here is an interesting scenario.

Wild turkeys were extinct around here for decades until the MNR reintroduced them about 20 years ago. They brought in seedstock from areas in the US.

Now we have thousands of the stupid things, just all over the place. Not unusual to crunch their nests while cutting hay.

Now here's the interesting thing - accumulated data shows that the turkeys are now being harvested in the annual hunts are weighing in at easily measurable, higher weights than their cousins in the areas where they came from. :???:

And this ain't Texas . . . :wink:

 

[gcreekrch]

When it comes to this stuff, I don't know nothin' about nothin', but here is an interesting scenario.

Wild turkeys were extinct around here for decades until the MNR reintroduced them about 20 years ago. They brought in seedstock from areas in the US.

Now we have thousands of the stupid things, just all over the place. Not unusual to crunch their nests while cutting hay.

Now here's the interesting thing - accumulated data shows that the turkeys are now being harvested in the annual hunts are weighing in at easily measurable, higher weights than their cousins in the areas where they came from. :???:

And this ain't Texas . . . :wink:

Most animals get larger the farther north you go in order to have more body mass for cold winters.

 

[burnt]

When it comes to this stuff, I don't know nothin' about nothin', but here is an interesting scenario.

Wild turkeys were extinct around here for decades until the MNR reintroduced them about 20 years ago. They brought in seedstock from areas in the US.

Now we have thousands of the stupid things, just all over the place. Not unusual to crunch their nests while cutting hay.

Now here's the interesting thing - accumulated data shows that the turkeys are now being harvested in the annual hunts are weighing in at easily measurable, higher weights than their cousins in the areas where they came from. :???:

And this ain't Texas . . . :wink:

Most animals get larger the farther north you go in order to have more body mass for cold winters.

So I should be migrating north?

:lol: :lol:

 

[gcreekrch]

When it comes to this stuff, I don't know nothin' about nothin', but here is an interesting scenario.

Wild turkeys were extinct around here for decades until the MNR reintroduced them about 20 years ago. They brought in seedstock from areas in the US.

Now we have thousands of the stupid things, just all over the place. Not unusual to crunch their nests while cutting hay.

Now here's the interesting thing - accumulated data shows that the turkeys are now being harvested in the annual hunts are weighing in at easily measurable, higher weights than their cousins in the areas where they came from. :???:

And this ain't Texas . . . :wink:

Most animals get larger the farther north you go in order to have more body mass for cold winters.

So I should be migrating north?

:lol: :lol:

Worked for me and Miocene! :lol:

 

[knabe]

Most animals get larger the farther north you go in order to have more body mass for cold winters.

what about eskimo's?

 

[Silver]

Most animals get larger the farther north you go in order to have more body mass for cold winters.

what about eskimo's?

I know some awful big Eskimos.

 

[miocene]

EPDS. are only one tool in the box and do not reflect the management & enviormental conditions of the contemporary group. if I took a cow from gcreeks herd and brought her here I would expect her to be heavier and wean a substantialy heavier calf despite what the epds .indicated and i'm just 200 miles east.

 

[leanin' H]

I think of EPD's as genetic potential. They are a tool to compare the potential between two animals when bred to the same set of cattle. Not a perfect system but they do allow a guy to have more information when making decisions. Our mule deer in this area have the genetic potential for pretty big antlers. But on drought years they simply do not have enough nutrition available to reach that potential. That is usually apperant by weak tine length and not much horn mass. On abundant moisture years they really bloom. EPD's and herd management or environmental conditions are like that. If we took the exact same bull and ran him here on a set of cows and then ran him in British Columbia on the same set of cows, there would have to be differences in the calf crop based on how they were fed and managed. (Not to mention they wouldnt want to come back to Utah and a diet of browse and rocks). Genetically, the calves would be the same, being from the same bull and cows. But everything else that effected this example would change and that would require a change in the outcome.

 

[HerefordGuy]

The 3 words "Expected Progeny Differences" tell the whole story. The word "expected" is not absolute but the best thing we have at this time.

Hogwash. Why don't they use epd's in "predicting" genetic disorders in the angus breed instead of dna if epd's are so superior? My only point and my point of which I am firmly convinced is that environment plays a part in why pig epd's are always going to be more predictable. Nothing more.

In Australia, they use statistics to predict the "expected" genetic disorder genotype using pedigree, performance (affected vs not affected), and genetic information.[/b]

 

[Hay Feeder]

I think of EPD's as genetic potential. They are a tool to compare the potential between two animals when bred to the same set of cattle. Not a perfect system but they do allow a guy to have more information when making decisions. Our mule deer in this area have the genetic potential for pretty big antlers. But on drought years they simply do not have enough nutrition available to reach that potential. That is usually apperant by weak tine length and not much horn mass. On abundant moisture years they really bloom. EPD's and herd management or environmental conditions are like that. If we took the exact same bull and ran him here on a set of cows and then ran him in British Columbia on the same set of cows, there would have to be differences in the calf crop based on how they were fed and managed. (Not to mention they wouldnt want to come back to Utah and a diet of browse and rocks). Genetically, the calves would be the same, being from the same bull and cows. But everything else that effected this example would change and that would require a change in the outcome.

I agree this is the major point. Cattle breeders in Missouri are vastly different than other states. As I discuss Epds or. DNA most Missouri cattle raisers have a short attention span understanding the topics in real life here in Missouri what ever the sales management team or purebred auctioneer said at a purebred sale is all they can talk about. Depending on what they say one can figure out which sale they last attended or what ad they just read.
It needs to also mentioned that the groups of people behind Epd DNA associations and so on are working these issues into a life long career so they have to keep changing everything to keep their jobs going
There will never be the correct solution to any issues

 

[Soapweed]

I think of EPD's as genetic potential. They are a tool to compare the potential between two animals when bred to the same set of cattle. Not a perfect system but they do allow a guy to have more information when making decisions. Our mule deer in this area have the genetic potential for pretty big antlers. But on drought years they simply do not have enough nutrition available to reach that potential. That is usually apperant by weak tine length and not much horn mass. On abundant moisture years they really bloom. EPD's and herd management or environmental conditions are like that. If we took the exact same bull and ran him here on a set of cows and then ran him in British Columbia on the same set of cows, there would have to be differences in the calf crop based on how they were fed and managed. (Not to mention they wouldnt want to come back to Utah and a diet of browse and rocks). Genetically, the calves would be the same, being from the same bull and cows. But everything else that effected this example would change and that would require a change in the outcome.

I agree. Nutrition will trump genetics. The best genetics in the world falter on poor nutrition, whereby poor genetics can look good with abundant feed. When it comes to cattle :wink: fat is a pretty color.

 

[Denny]

I think of EPD's as genetic potential. They are a tool to compare the potential between two animals when bred to the same set of cattle. Not a perfect system but they do allow a guy to have more information when making decisions. Our mule deer in this area have the genetic potential for pretty big antlers. But on drought years they simply do not have enough nutrition available to reach that potential. That is usually apperant by weak tine length and not much horn mass. On abundant moisture years they really bloom. EPD's and herd management or environmental conditions are like that. If we took the exact same bull and ran him here on a set of cows and then ran him in British Columbia on the same set of cows, there would have to be differences in the calf crop based on how they were fed and managed. (Not to mention they wouldnt want to come back to Utah and a diet of browse and rocks). Genetically, the calves would be the same, being from the same bull and cows. But everything else that effected this example would change and that would require a change in the outcome.

I agree. Nutrition will trump genetics. The best genetics in the world falter on poor nutrition, whereby poor genetics can look good with abundant feed. When it comes to cattle :wink: fat is a pretty color.

I've heard it said it's 35% genetics and 65% nutrition.

 

[Mike]

EPD's are not to be used for the comparison of animals with different nutritional regimes. They are used only to compare the potential "Expected" genetic differences between the progeny of animals and the breed average.

EPD's are not for comparing the difference between a well fed animal and a malnourished one.

The statistical analysis used for EPD calculation also accounts for the effects of environment (nutrition, climate, geographical location, etc.) that exist between herds. These environmental effects can be estimated due to the widespread use of artificial insemination. Through AI, the same bull can be used in several herds across the country. These common sires create genetic links between herds with differing environments and serve as the foundation for evaluation of performance data and EPD calculation across herds. For these reasons, animals with published EPDs within a breed may be directly compared regardless of their age and origin.

Expected progeny differences (EPDs) provide estimates of the genetic value of an animal as a parent.

Judging "Phenotype" is whole nuther game. :wink:

 

[knabe]

I've heard it said it's 35% genetics and 65% nutrition.

so why do discussions focus on the least area of improvement?

 

[BRG]

I've heard it said it's 35% genetics and 65% nutrition.

so why do discussions focus on the least area of improvement?

Because we can't control mother nature, where we can have input on the genetics.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I've heard it said it's 35% genetics and 65% nutrition.

so why do discussions focus on the least area of improvement?

Because we can't control mother nature, where we can have input on the genetics.

But you can control the nutrition :!:

Weren't you telling us you hired a nutritionist?