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Big Muddy rancher said:
George is a excavator like that one worth?

Seems up here they are real big ones or little ones. That is a nice size to haul.

If you get one BMR make sure it comes with a hydraulic thumb, it makes me handy machine an indispensable machine. I paid $34,000 for this machine with the digging and a cleanup bucket, proheat, full guarding, new engine etc, 10,000 h machine well maintained and tight.


 
Big Muddy rancher said:
George is a excavator like that one worth?

Seems up here they are real big ones or little ones. That is a nice size to haul.

I feel we stole it for $25,000 - - - weighs in at 44,000# - - - 11' wide - - - this was a one owner machine by the biggest "basement contractor" in the area. Very tight and we even got the dealer to do a 2,000 hour service - - - we ended up paying $1,500 for the 30" bucket plus $300.00 shipping - - - I did not want to drive to Wisconsin for $300

I am still looking for a quick coupler for it. I have a manual thumb I will install and with the fence rows we will be taking out I want everything on the end of the boom as simple as possible as it will be feeding fire a lot and the less out there that can catch fire the better.

The Komatsu 180 PC we had we bought for $14,000 eleven years ago and sold it for $14,000 at auction last fall, I do think it was in better shape when we sold it than when we bought it. It was nice weighing 28,000# and only 9' wide so I could pull it behind a single axle dump truck but we have a detachable gooseneck for a semi and 3 road tractors - - - around here if you want a 50,000# or larger machine you can get them real cheap! Nice if you just want to use them on your own property.
 
George said:
I am still looking for a quick coupler for it. I have a manual thumb I will install and with the fence rows we will be taking out I want everything on the end of the boom as simple as possible as it will be feeding fire a lot and the less out there that can catch fire the better.

I've never heard of anyone burning up a hydraulic thumb but I suppose anything is possible. But I have seen a lot of damage done to machines with thumbs and no forestry guarding, that guarding (FOPS and window cage at a minimum) is a must. In fact it is the law in these parts.
 
Silver said:
Q70xeaa.jpg


This trough I put in requires no heat and has not frozen at temps down to -35 so far. Pretty happy with it to this point.

That is a pretty picture.
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
Your are so far north you almost have to point your solar panels down hill in the winter. :wink: :)

That's a fact. You gotta look quick to catch sight of it too. :lol:
 
Colorado state did a study showing cattle can survive on snow, but I've never roughed cows that hard. The Eskimos have maybe a dozen words for different snows. I suppose that heavy wet snow might water cows ok. Jim leachman used to say he wintered on snow.

I like that geothermal drinker. Is that heat well 20' vertical or horizontal?
 
Brad S said:
I like that geothermal drinker. Is that heat well 20' vertical or horizontal?

The well is 20 vertical. Static water level currently is about five feet below th surface.
 
Brad S said:
Colorado state did a study showing cattle can survive on snow, but I've never roughed cows that hard.

"Survive" being THE word. They won't die, necessarily, but from what we have observed, it certainly can shorten their productive life span. And also, again, all snow is not created equal. :D Snow in SE Montana is usually very dry.......like sand........not much moisture in it.
 
Faster horses said:
Brad S said:
Colorado state did a study showing cattle can survive on snow, but I've never roughed cows that hard.

"Survive" being THE word. They won't die, necessarily, but from what we have observed, it certainly can shorten their productive life span. And also, again, all snow is not created equal. :D Snow in SE Montana is usually very dry.......like sand........not much moisture in it.

I have to say that that has to be pure nonsense. I don't believe 5 gallons of snow in Montana or Nebraska weighs significantly less than 5 gallons of snow in British Columbia. I also don't believe that the recipe for water is different in these places. I do know for a fact that cows do absolutely fine wintering on snow here, so I don't see why it would be different elsewhere. I would wager that cows tend to stay in the herd at least as long in these parts as anywhere else even wintering only on snow as a water source.
 
Silver said:
Faster horses said:
Brad S said:
Colorado state did a study showing cattle can survive on snow, but I've never roughed cows that hard.

"Survive" being THE word. They won't die, necessarily, but from what we have observed, it certainly can shorten their productive life span. And also, again, all snow is not created equal. :D Snow in SE Montana is usually very dry.......like sand........not much moisture in it.

I have to say that that has to be pure nonsense. I don't believe 5 gallons of snow in Montana or Nebraska weighs significantly less than 5 gallons of snow in British Columbia. I also don't believe that the recipe for water is different in these places. I do know for a fact that cows do absolutely fine wintering on snow here, so I don't see why it would be different elsewhere. I would wager that cows tend to stay in the herd at least as long in these parts as anywhere else even wintering only on snow as a water source.

I don't want to get in a peeing match here over snow. I related us experiencing a deal where the cattle had snow and not much else for water. The owners of the ranch told us to watch the tails. When the hair on the tails parted down the middle of the tail, the cattle weren't doing good. We observed. It happened. And it happened where the cattle weren't getting enough water. Have you been to SE Montana and North Central Wyoming when it snows? I'm telling you, MOST of the time, there is very little water in that snow. I have been to Canada and know about your snow. With ours, you can melt a bucket full and barely get any moisture in the bottom of the bucket. That place where we were had a lot of open cows in the fall. They turned over a lot of cattle. When cattle are shorted on nutrients, and water is the first nutrient, something has to go. And it's usually reproduction first, then calf weaning weights. In this particular place, we didn't feed hay; it was cake and grass outfit. If you feed hay and cattle have to depend on snow--dry snow........that's even worse. But to each his own.

Ranchers here spend a lot of money on pipelines and insulated tanks in order for their cattle to have water in winter.

Anyway, Silver. we can agree to disagree. I can concede that in some areas in the states, there is more water in the snow than where we have lived.

Here is something interesting:
http://www.hereford.org/static/files/1015_WinterWater.pdf

Here is a test done in Canada that supports cows wintering on snow.
https://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/production/beef/pubs/bjb05s21.pdf

They found no difference in cows that eat snow vs cows that have open water. However, they did qualify their findings:

Careful management of snow fed cows is essential to
prevent this potential labour and money saving management
practice from becoming an animal welfare issue. Consider
the following points:
• Snow as the only water source is not recommended for
lactating cows, those in poor body condition (BCS<3),
cows on less than optimum feeding programs or for those
who are sick or unhealthy.
• An alternate water source must be in place and
immediately available in case snow conditions change
and cows cannot maintain sufficient snow intake.
• Snow must be clean and easily accessible. The University
of Alberta study (1980) showed cattle preferred clean
snow that they could easily pick up using a circular
scooping motion of the tongue, a similar motion to that
used when grazing.
• Ice-crusted, wind-blown or trampled snow sources are
not considered adequate. It may be necessary to break
through ice-covered snow with a tractor or some other
means to allow cows access. Providing traction (straw,
old hay, sand) on icy surfaces is recommended to prevent
injuries.
• Carefully evaluate the snowfall in your area. It takes
about 10 centimetres of snow to get one centimetre of
water. Not all areas are well suited to this management
practice. Consider the amount of snowfall and openness
of fields – wide-open spaces with little or no wind
protection will result in wind-blown snow which is not
easily accessible to cows.
• Use feed intake to assess whether cattle are receiving
enough water from snow. Feed intake for a mature cow
should be between two and 2.5 per cent of body weight
(BW) and should be consistent from day to day. A drop
in feed consumption could indicate insufficient water
intake.
• Cows in pens or confined to small fields may not have a
sufficient supply of snow to act as a water source.
• Ensure cows receive a well-balanced ration that provides
all the energy, protein, minerals and vitamins they
require. Cows fed poorly digestible rations will be prone
to rumen compaction, regardless of water source.
• Discuss the ins and outs with someone who has
experience with snow feeding. Be well informed.
Behaviour Changes When
Snow is the Sole Water Source
• Eating snow is a learned behaviour. It can take four to five
days for all cows to become snow eaters. In the meantime,
be prepared for restlessness and bellowing. Novice snow
eaters will adapt faster if they are with animals who have
become accustomed to snow.
• If bellowing and restlessness persist after four to five
days, investigate. The cows are trying to tell you
something is not right.
• Some changes in feeding and drinking patterns have
been noted when cattle are not given access to water.
The authors of the University of Alberta study outlined
here observed that calves ate their daily feed at a slower
rate than calves with access to water. They tended to eat
more frequently throughout the day and alternated feeding
and snow intake. Animals provided with water tended to
drink only once or twice a day. Alternating feed and snow
consumption may help minimize thermal stress.
Conclusions
• Research shows that snow can be the sole source of water
for cattle without affecting performance negatively.
• Maintaining the health and welfare of snow fed cattle
should be a top priority.
• It is essential that snow be available in sufficient quantity
and in a form that is easily accessible by cattle.
• Management practices must be in place to ensure good
nutrition at all times. A backup watering plan is also
essential to deal with the scenario of snow becoming
unavailable at any time throughout the winter.
Additional References
Canadian Council on Animal Care. 1993. Guide to the care
and use of experimental animals. Vol. 1. CCAC, Ottawa, ON.
The Animal Care Act – http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/
statutes/1996/c06996e.php
 
I've got springs on my land which is nice they feed into drainage ditches on one end of the place and a shallow creek on the other the last 2 years I chopped ice a total of 16 days. I prefer the creek end of the place as it has more winter cover.
 
Yup, obviously by reading all the above just been lucky here for 75 years or so.

One more interesting factoid while we are at it: 10 pounds of snow when melted makes 10 pounds of water, regardles of where you live.

So if you live in a place where a reliable source of loose snow is available cows can make out just fine and would not be considered to be roughing it.
 
Here in central Indiana where the creeks are shallow they run fast and I cannot remember a time when you could not find open water - - - but animals that are restricted to one of the barn areas for one reason or another need a source of fresh water - - -I do not feel snow would work well here except for one or two days right after it comes down as we get enough heat in the afternoon that the surface thaws and then refreezes which makes for dangerous walking and they would only have access to ice encrusted snow.
 
well , the water in
Canadian snow is actually measured in imperial gallons or liters or kilograms---and the plain fact is that an imperial gallon is bigger than u.s. gallon, a liter is bigger than a quart and a kilogram is WAY bigger than a pound---so of course it's gonna work better to water cows!

Our snow is horribly dry---if you want a decent drink, you gotta add some bourbon to it, altho--once again---them damn snowbacks got the edge on us and rye works better~~!
 
The great thing about the cattle business is how diverse it is. What is completely foreign to me works just fine in other parts of the planet. Between Silver wintering on snow and us summering on rocks, cows can make a living almost anywhere. :D 8)
 

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