An attraction or something to avoid?

[Dylan Biggs]

The topic of ET calves came up in a bull buying discussion the other day and it got me wondering.
How do bull buyers feel about bulls resulting from ET.

Makes you consider them more or less?

Or maybe it is irrelevant?

 

[BRG]

I would think they would be more interested in them, as they SHOULD be out of your better cows and cow lines. But I have had a few guys tell me they want a calf out of his natural mother instead of a recip cow. I think it still goes back to how that bull looks sale day. If the naturals look better, then I think they will sell better, or vice versa.

 

[Northern Rancher]

It all boils down to the reason for the ET work-an ET calf out of an old proven cow is alot more desireable to me than one out of a two year old heifer. I think the recips used should be off the same breed or close to it as the embryos-Angus embryos in Jersey recips just kind of strikes me as a bit off. It reminds me of the old Hereford nurse cow deal a bit-I sure hope it's old and nobody does that any more.

 

[nortexsook]

I think ET and "generation turning" is over used. More marketing hype.

I think their is a place for ET.

I think that place is the older (8+ years) cow who has proven herself to be a standout in her "natural career" and is still in the utmost physical condition. meaning legs, feet, udder, eyes, ect...

Too much ET today is just "mass production".

Just my .02

I wouldn't buy and ET calf out of a young cow.

 

[BRG]

I think ET and "generation turning" is over used. More marketing hype.

I think their is a place for ET.

I think that place is the older (8+ years) cow who has proven herself to be a standout in her "natural career" and is still in the utmost physical condition. meaning legs, feet, udder, eyes, ect...

Too much ET today is just "mass production".

Just my .02

I wouldn't buy and ET calf out of a young cow.

Would you buy a natural calf out of a young one? Not trying to argue, just want to understand what you are saying.

I agree, on the side of only flushing the proven cows and cow lines. But to me, a cow after she has had a few calves that weaned off ahead of the rest, and bred back in time, is sound, and has everything else that goes with it, might should get flushed, instead of keeping a mediocre cow around and that raises 6 or 7 average or less calves.

I also think that you should only flush the top cow families, instead of randomly flushing different cows because they are dong a nice job. Her mother might have been an under average cow and then you are breeding those characteristics

 

[nortexsook]

Would you buy a natural calf out of a young one? Not trying to argue, just want to understand what you are saying.

Maybe, but my preference is a bull out of an older cow (the older the better) whether ET or natural.

I agree, on the side of only flushing the proven cows and cow lines. But to me, a cow after she has had a few calves that weaned off ahead of the rest, and bred back in time, is sound, and has everything else that goes with it, might should get flushed, instead of keeping a mediocre cow around and that raises 6 or 7 average or less calves.

Sound at 6 does not always mean sound at 9, in fact most cows are sound at 6


I also think that you should only flush the top cow families, instead of randomly flushing different cows because they are dong a nice job. Her mother might have been an under average cow and then you are breeding those characteristics
I can't argue with that. I do think you should look not only at the cow but the cow's dam and granddam

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[Dylan Biggs]

I think ET and "generation turning" is over used. More marketing hype.

I think their is a place for ET.

I think that place is the older (8+ years) cow who has proven herself to be a standout in her "natural career" and is still in the utmost physical condition. meaning legs, feet, udder, eyes, ect...

Too much ET today is just "mass production".

Just my .02

I wouldn't buy and ET calf out of a young cow.

Would you buy a natural calf out of a young one? Not trying to argue, just want to understand what you are saying.

I agree, on the side of only flushing the proven cows and cow lines. But to me, a cow after she has had a few calves that weaned off ahead of the rest, and bred back in time, is sound, and has everything else that goes with it, might should get flushed, instead of keeping a mediocre cow around and that raises 6 or 7 average or less calves.

I also think that you should only flush the top cow families, instead of randomly flushing different cows because they are dong a nice job. Her mother might have been an under average cow and then you are breeding those characteristics

Interesting point, for me it begs the question "at what point does a cow become a good cow".

I was thinking about this the other day with regards the the cow below and I thought to myself so far she would qualify in spades as a donor cow, and then I thought if she came in open would she qualify? She is an S, so will be 5 this year.

 

[BRG]

I think ET and "generation turning" is over used. More marketing hype.

I think their is a place for ET.

I think that place is the older (8+ years) cow who has proven herself to be a standout in her "natural career" and is still in the utmost physical condition. meaning legs, feet, udder, eyes, ect...

Too much ET today is just "mass production".

Just my .02

I wouldn't buy and ET calf out of a young cow.

Would you buy a natural calf out of a young one? Not trying to argue, just want to understand what you are saying.

I agree, on the side of only flushing the proven cows and cow lines. But to me, a cow after she has had a few calves that weaned off ahead of the rest, and bred back in time, is sound, and has everything else that goes with it, might should get flushed, instead of keeping a mediocre cow around and that raises 6 or 7 average or less calves.

I also think that you should only flush the top cow families, instead of randomly flushing different cows because they are dong a nice job. Her mother might have been an under average cow and then you are breeding those characteristics

Interesting point, for me it begs the question "at what point does a cow become a good cow".

I was thinking about this the other day with regards the the cow below and I thought to myself so far she would qualify in spades as a donor cow, and then I thought if she came in open would she qualify? She is an S, so will be 5 this year.

Coming up open to me disqualifies her most of the time. BUT, their may be a reason why she was open. Sometimes we blame the cow for everything, it might be that the bull was very busy and missed her, could have been she was running a fever and never caught, maybe she was over the hill at another waterhole while the bull was at a different one. Maybe the bull didn't have enough juice to cover all the cows. Sometimes we all want to just say she is infertile when it might be something else. But unless you know for sure what the problem was, I guess we will have to say she shouldn't be a donor if she showes up open.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Sound at 6 does not always mean sound at 9, in fact most cows are sound at 6

Good point.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Would you buy a natural calf out of a young one? Not trying to argue, just want to understand what you are saying.

I agree, on the side of only flushing the proven cows and cow lines. But to me, a cow after she has had a few calves that weaned off ahead of the rest, and bred back in time, is sound, and has everything else that goes with it, might should get flushed, instead of keeping a mediocre cow around and that raises 6 or 7 average or less calves.

I also think that you should only flush the top cow families, instead of randomly flushing different cows because they are dong a nice job. Her mother might have been an under average cow and then you are breeding those characteristics

Interesting point, for me it begs the question "at what point does a cow become a good cow".

I was thinking about this the other day with regards the the cow below and I thought to myself so far she would qualify in spades as a donor cow, and then I thought if she came in open would she qualify? She is an S, so will be 5 this year.

But unless you know for sure what the problem was, I guess we will have to say she shouldn't be a donor if she showes up open.

In the end I agree.

 

[RSL]

ET is not good when it is used as a way to get your investment out of a cow you paid too much for that never got pregnant, but since that NEVER happens...
I don't think ET is much different than natural matings. It is not a bad way to preserve, expand genetic lines and is useful for export. I think a lot of us have some difficulty getting over the "actual" birthweight on ET calves, even though the ET process often inflates them slightly.
We are commercial, so I don't worry about cows on as individual a basis as the seedstock producer. I am more concerned with groups of cows, and that my group of young cows is better than my group of older cows. I guess I might place some importance on a bull being from an older cow if he does everything else right first, but I would also be pretty concerned if I went into a breeding program and all the good bulls were off older cows. My first question would be "what have you been doing for the last X # of years?"

 

[hillsdown]

If she doesn't breed back how are you going to flush her embryos for ET ? Of course you still may be able to do IVF with her but that is super expensive .


Went to a very expensive herd dispersal a few years ago and a few cows were being sold open but had been run with their herd bulls for a few months and all the others were heavy bred either through natural service or AI . The auctioneer kept saying that you could buy these (open) cows and flush them . OMG ,are you that fricken stupid.

If I am paying all that money on expensive semen ,drugs ,cidrs and flushing, I am for sure going to use a fertile heifer(s) as an ET recip.

 

[Northern Rancher]

The cows I'd flush are coming in dry at 14 or 15 which isn't really a sign of infertility I'd think. I'm going to use a Red Angus bull that bred well till he was 13 so should get some cattle with a bit of last in them. I'm just hoping to raise some bulls for my own use-her son she had this year is doing well under my benign neglect so far.

 

[elwapo]

As breeders we need to move the traits forward that we desire. In my camp poor fertility is not included in that list. If the cow came in open I would send her to slaughter not flush her. I never have, and never will fall for the old " open and ready to flush" BS spewed by an auctioneer. There are way to many good cows out there, why propogate poor characteristics REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU PAY FOR THE COW.

 

[hillsdown]

The cows I'd flush are coming in dry at 14 or 15 which isn't really a sign of infertility I'd think. I'm going to use a Red Angus bull that bred well till he was 13 so should get some cattle with a bit of last in them. I'm just hoping to raise some bulls for my own use-her son she had this year is doing well under my benign neglect so far.

I am sure you already know this but ,,,you need to get them bred first NR if you plan on just doing ET with them. I would get them ultra sounded first to make sure that they are cycling and can stay bred for the 12 days you need before flushing.

 

[PATB]

How many of the flush daughters turn out as good as the mother or better? I know the holstein breeders that flush cows figure maybe 1 out of 4 will be good. Will the offspring of the super cow make a lasting impact in your herd or are they all for sale to recoup your cost of et work? I personally think too many breeders flush cows just to me part of the crowd.

 

[hillsdown]

As breeders we need to move the traits forward that we desire. In my camp poor fertility is not included in that list. If the cow came in open I would send her to slaughter not flush her. I never have, and never will fall for the old " open and ready to flush" BS spewed by an auctioneer. There are way to many good cows out there, why propogate poor characteristics REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU PAY FOR THE COW.

I agree 100% Elwapo !!!! Unless one has actually gone through the process of ET most do not know what is involved and the costs incurred. it is really easy to throw a few thousand away and that does not include the cost of the cow or recip.
We had this discussion many years ago on CT and alot of people said that they would use an older dairy cow as the recip. Why, because of all the milk and less chances of calving difficulty. :roll: Alot of misconceptions out there, one more reason why most people should not even entertain the idea of flushing their cows, let alone buying embryos.

 

[greybeard]

In this situation ,it depends on what your plans are for the flush. If it were mine I would go ahead hoping to end up with more cows that looked like her.
Use the bulls and keep the heifers. Assuming she is fertile.
Picking a cow as outstanding is like bad karma at my place. Too many bad things can happen to them, not always their fault. I can't imagine the trouble I'd have with a high dollar "Flush" cow.

 

[Northern Rancher]

With my luck Hillsdown she'll cycle a month before I want to breed her and a rodeo bull will breed her lol.