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bull buying season is here....

J

John SD

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Mar 16, 2005
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Location
western SD
Got a bull catalog in the mail today. Though I can get by maybe I should go to the sale and look for a heifer bull. IMO, the BW EPDs and actual number doesn't always seem to jibe. I admit I still pay more attention to the actual BW than the EPD. For heifers, I like to stay no more than 85 lbs. On the EPDs I prefer to stay under 3.0

Here's a couple bulls both with 3.1 EPD. One has 72 lb actual BW while the other has a 89 lb BW. Even though rated the same, I would be somewhat concerned using the latter bull on heifers. I really prefer bulls of 2.5 and less with BW in the 70s.

I realize the dam is half of the equation that doesn't show up in the bull catalog. What consideration do you give to the numbers when choosing a heifer bull? Body shape enters in to it for me too. I like to see a bull with smooth head and shoulders, and not have a blocky head like he just collided with a truck. I also realize EPDs are not the same across breeds. This is horned Hereford.
 
What I do, is look at the other bulls out of the same sire and see what
their actual BW's are. That tells me if light BW runs in that line of cattle.

I'm amazed sometimes, at what the PB breeders call a heifer bull.

I learned a long time ago to look at the contemporaries, not just take
the info from one particular bull. At times you are safer with a higher
BW bull from a light BW family than you are with a light BW bull
from a heavier BW family. Bill Ohrmann, a long-time Angus breeder
from Drummond, Mt. taught me this and it has never failed me when
choosing heifer bulls. Of course, you want the phenotype to be right
too.

Rainmaker 340 is a perfect example of this. His actual BW was 90
lbs., yet he was a great heifer bull; very dependable for light
bw calves.

The cow plays a huge part, of course. If you breed heavy
bw's into your cows, it is really hard to get rid of and you can't really
blame the bull. I think bw is 70% inheritable from the cow. :shock:
 
If possible check out birth weight on 3 generation of ancestors or their BW EPD's. If there are fire and ice mateings on birth weight I would be cautious. If possible check out the bull siblings birth weight by sire and dam.
 
I try to look at all the birth info possible. While I do like a reasonable BW I don't take a little BW to the bank. What happens if a cow is butted and calves just a few days early, does'nt that put a ? in the equation.

Structure , EPD's, BW, contemps, sire history and dam history all are part of it
 
I have a few that might interest you.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5B5A5924212E2D&9=50515A
Actual BW=81

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5B5A592420262D&9=50515A
Actual=82

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5B5A5924212022&9=50515A
Actual=76

A 2 year old
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5B5B5859212725&9=50505C
Actual=75

That is a sample of what I have. To me shape is more important than the epd. I like the smooth head and shoulders along with a lot of length when selecting for a heifer bull. I also like to look at the pedigree for 3 generations and make sure there isn't a couple huge BW animals in there, more on the cow family than the bull side.
An example of what I look for is the 2 year old I posted. His mother has a 98% bw ratio, but she is a young cow. Her grandmother and great grandmother both had 98% BW ratios also though. That is what shows me that her ratio is not an accident and is likely to stay in that range. Couple that with the fact that his sire has a 99% BW ratio and I call him a heifer bull.
 
A long, smooth 90 pound calf can come really easy. A squared shoulder or coarse front ended calf can be a tough birth regardless of total weight. Same with those blocky hipped calves. I too have heard the cow has a huge say in heritability of BW.
 
Great discussion would like to add some posts about these super low bw bulls. Have seen some people bragging about their 50 pound calves.
Plenty of promotion about and how they grow. Grow up with bones lack of guts and muscle. I call them stick cattle. Actually there are buyers out there that want a clf not much bigger than a cow pile.
Bw like carcass needs to be in the middle of the road.
 
Justin said:
i only use angus bulls and when looking at calving ease i go more by the CED rather than the BW EPD.
Click to expand...

I know I'll raise some eyebrows, but I'm using a Char bull on Char heifers, and don't get up at night. Just check about 10:30 and again at 5:00. I'd use this bull on British Heifers too. I'd probably do a night check on them until he'd proved himself. He is out of a trait leader for calving ease direct.

I'l edit this to add that this is the 3rd season, and 60 of 61 unassisted births (one slump, not pulls), so they don't have to be Angus :wink:
 
Thanks for all the replies. Doug, I will keep your bulls in mind. The bull I have been using on heifers is HWK 001 Victor 678. I got him from my neighbor at his Nov '07 sale at St Onge. This polled bull's sire was JMS Victor 806 001 who was also reported to have good results on heifers.

He has a +0.4 BW EPD but I don't know the actual BW. Best thing is I have never had to pull any of his calves. He is getting a bit big for heifers and with some of his daughters now coming into herd he will spend the rest of his career with the mature cows.
 
leanin' H said:
A long, smooth 90 pound calf can come really easy. A squared shoulder or coarse front ended calf can be a tough birth regardless of total weight. Same with those blocky hipped calves. I too have heard the cow has a huge say in heritability of BW.
Click to expand...

:agree: and would add broad headed, but maybe that would be included in coarse front
 
All I know is that the ones that got thrown on the s..t pile were the big ones-extremes at either end are probably not that great but I've finished 50 pound calves and they were alot better than big dead ones. As for Charolais on heifers I don't doubt there are lots that can calve-my Dad ran not alot of cows but they were all bred Char heifers included and he never owned a calf puller or got a caeserian done. Don't know if it's just luck but we've got a pretty easy calving bunch of cattle and I don't intend on changing that. A bull that is sound and athletic can breed a pretty small heifer-I had a Char that could breed a seven weight heifer calf-not by design but he took matters into his own hands from time to time.
 
While the numbers are important, just look at the damn bull. It has gotten us farther that any EPD ever did. I would rather have a 90 lb snake than a 50 lb cinder block
 
Question I have is what is the real national cow numbers this year. Are are the cow numbers relfected into cattle numbers???
 
Northern Rancher said:
All I know is that the ones that got thrown on the s..t pile were the big ones-extremes at either end are probably not that great but I've finished 50 pound calves and they were alot better than big dead ones. As for Charolais on heifers I don't doubt there are lots that can calve-my Dad ran not alot of cows but they were all bred Char heifers included and he never owned a calf puller or got a caeserian done. Don't know if it's just luck but we've got a pretty easy calving bunch of cattle and I don't intend on changing that. A bull that is sound and athletic can breed a pretty small heifer-I had a Char that could breed a seven weight heifer calf-not by design but he took matters into his own hands from time to time.
Click to expand...

There is a guy about 15 miles from here who puts together several hundered head of guaranteed f1 hereford angus heifers every year and AIs them to charolais bulls. He calves some of them out but he also has several guys that buy them from him every year, so it must work for them. Its all about proper sire selection.

Brian
 

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