Cattle pictures

[Grassfarmer]

I thought I'd post pictures of a couple of my favourites that I took this afternoon. It turned so nice going from -29C up to -5C in a few hours today I thought I'd try and get pictures when they were looking happy
I welcome input and criticism as these are important cattle in the future of my line breeding program. They are half brother/half sister as they are both out of my rising 23 year old cow shown at the bottom.
The heifer calf was born by ET and is the result of a better than 3/4 brother 3/4 sister mating. She weighs around 640lbs currently and is 11 months old wintering on straight hay ration.

The bull is a rising 3 year old, hates having his picture taken - this might be the best shot I've ever got of him :roll: He is a frame score 4, but is always fat with tons of character in his head. He covered 60 head as a small 2 year old (he weighed 1650lb when we pulled him).

I plan to mate the two together so I can maintain the old cows blood at 50%. I also have a different son and daughters out of the old cow and I can crossbreed them also to get that 50% blood and then cross mate the offspring of the two lines for ever more.

My objective is to breed easy keeping, fertile, mature cows maxing out about 1200lbs that will thrive in my tough extended grazing program. We produce bulls (and eventually heifers) for sale and direct market our grass-fed steers.

ET Heifer calf

Solomon bull

The old cow on fall pasture last November, will be 23 years in April 09!

 

[RSL]

GF - you would have enjoyed Charolais breeder James Rawe. We went through a pedigree on a bull one time that had the same sire in it 17 times. Linebreeding can be a useful tool in seedstock development, but it scares the britches off most people.

Not sure it is so useful in commercial production (that should start a discussion)

 

[Grassfarmer]

The more I learn about line-breeding the more out crossing within the same breed scares the britches off me!

Maybe getting off topic but I hate this "commercial" or "seed-stock" differentiation. Our cattle herds has always been commercial first and foremost (ie they are real world ranch cows that rear calves under commercial conditions) but they also happen to be pedigree. I have no time for the "seedstock" operators who have zero commercial experience - they never band a steer, never fed out any cattle etc. Some outfits get by for decades parading pampered non-functional elephants around show rings and suckers queue up to buy their bulls at big money. They can't afford to band any bulls because they paid thousands of $ for their seed stock and semen.
With our "commercial" pedigree herd selling bulls or heifers is the icing on the cake - we can afford to sell them through commercial channels if necessary whether that be as calves, yearlings or culls.

Anyways, you say line breeding isn't so useful in commercial production - why not? Even if you believe in maximising hybrid vigor by breeding say a Hereford bull to Angus females having linebred cattle of these two breeds would only boost the predictability of your calf crop.

 

[Nicky]

They look good, keep us posted and keep the pictures coming!

 

[RSL]

Kind of what i was getting at GF.
Linebred cattle can combine the same genes on both alleles in a good way. Crossbreeding lines from different breeds is not linebreeding. Hence the statement about linebreeding not being particularly useful in commercial production. Perhaps I should have said commercial beef or terminal production.
I specifically said seedstock, as the seedstock business is WAAAYYYYYY different than the purebred business. In my mind the seedstock business is about serving a commercial customers needs. The purebred business is about :???:
I tend to agree with the crossing out within breeds. I get pretty pissed when I hear about heterosis from crossing different lines within a breed (AN example: GT Max by EXT).
I don't really care what people do in their own programs, but for god's sake think it through. There are good cattle of all kinds in all breeds, but you have to think about the situation you are trying to fit them into. Something about breeding square pegs for round holes comes to mind.
I actually think that a lot of the "minor" breeds have a lot to offer today, but they don't get a fair shake due to scale of operation. For example, it is tough to offer a CAB program, or other such with a limited number of cows and cowboys.

 

[RSL]

Forgot to mention - I do like those cows (especially the last one).

 

[WyomingRancher]

I welcome input and criticism as these are important cattle in the future of my line breeding program. They are half brother/half sister as they are both out of my rising 23 year old cow shown at the bottom.

The old cow on fall pasture last November, will be 23 years in April 09!

They do look like easy keeping critters . You asked for opinions, and I'll be honest, I would be skeptical building females/bulls out of a cow with that type of udder. I realize she's 23, but I have my doubts her udder looked too shiny when she was in her prime. I still have udders in this herd that are less than desireable, and it's an ongoing effort to clean them up. Udders are one trait I insist my bull suppliers work diligently on. Hope I didn't offend you, just being honest.

 

[Grassfarmer]

Good comment on the udder, it's probably her biggest weakness but to be fair that picture in the fall was not too long after she was weaned and the front teat on one side is bigger than normal. It may even be that she has lost that quarter. Good udders is certainly something we should select for but when a cow gets to 22 years rearing a calf every year never having needed assistance for one to suckle can you still fault her for having a defective udder?

Appreciate the comment though and welcome others - it seems most of the guys that get all riled up about an Angus picture don't have an opinion on cattle with hair - do I need to shave them first so you know what you are looking at? :lol:

 

[WyomingRancher]

Good udders is certainly something we should select for but when a cow gets to 22 years rearing a calf every year never having needed assistance for one to suckle can you still fault her for having a defective udder?

In a commercial herd, where offspring aren't sold into other herds, but likely eaten, no. If it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother me :lol: .

In a seedstock herd where offspring are sold into other herds to reproduce, yes.

I understand though where you're coming from. It's great to get longevity into a herd, and she definitely has that trait .

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Good comment on the udder, it's probably her biggest weakness but to be fair that picture in the fall was not too long after she was weaned and the front teat on one side is bigger than normal. It may even be that she has lost that quarter. Good udders is certainly something we should select for but when a cow gets to 22 years rearing a calf every year never having needed assistance for one to suckle can you still fault her for having a defective udder?

Appreciate the comment though and welcome others - it seems most of the guys that get all riled up about an Angus picture don't have an opinion on cattle with hair - do I need to shave them first so you know what you are looking at? :lol:

What was to get "Riled" about with the pictures you posted? They look like functional cattle for the real would. I agree with Wyo R but then she is 23 and udders do break down over time so she probably was OK for most of her productive life. My cows don't have such a easy life as in central Alberta so working for a living in this short grass country they generally wear out a little before 23 years of age.

 

[Grassfarmer]

........when a cow gets to 22 years rearing a calf every year never having needed assistance for one to suckle can you still fault her for having a defective udder?

In a commercial herd, where offspring aren't sold into other herds, but likely eaten, no...........
In a seedstock herd where offspring are sold into other herds to reproduce, yes.

Isn't this just cosmetic selection though? Sure it would be nice for every cow to be picture perfect as well as a great performer but if a cow's udder lasts until 22, rearing a calf every year and never needing assistance what can be wrong with her udder? What more could she have achieved if she had a picture perfect udder and would this extra ability have been passed onto any offspring?

We only have one calved daughter off this old cow to date who will be 7 this spring and she has a better looking udder than her mother.

 

[WyomingRancher]

........when a cow gets to 22 years rearing a calf every year never having needed assistance for one to suckle can you still fault her for having a defective udder?

In a commercial herd, where offspring aren't sold into other herds, but likely eaten, no...........
In a seedstock herd where offspring are sold into other herds to reproduce, yes.

Isn't this just cosmetic selection though? Sure it would be nice for every cow to be picture perfect as well as a great performer but if a cow's udder lasts until 22, rearing a calf every year and never needing assistance what can be wrong with her udder? What more could she have achieved if she had a picture perfect udder and would this extra ability have been passed onto any offspring?

We only have one calved daughter off this old cow to date who will be 7 this spring and she has a better looking udder than her mother.

You raise good points .

I think udders are more than cosmetic selection, and prefer my cows to have all four quarters functional. As you pointed out, she may have lost production in that quarter. Sure, a cow can raise a calf on fewer quarters, but likely her performance won't be optimal in relation to her contemporaries in the herd, especially if the cow is at an advanced age where milk production typically declines. She's still costing the same to run. In my herd I cull these types of cows since they are unsound in my opinion, and I prefer to replace them with younger females which will hopefully be more sound and productive. Is that smart? Would I be better off running an older cow with a bad bag which produces a calf each year vs replacing her with a young cow and hoping she produces enough to pay for herself and make a profit?

At the end of the day, you make a good point. She's lasted over two decades, and has raised numerous calves trouble-free. She's probably paid for herself several times over, and not many cows can claim that!

 

[RSL]

One thing to remember is that no 23 year old cow can be your best cow. Don't get me wrong, she is good, but she can't be your best (most proven maybe, or best of her contemporaries). If a 23 year old cow is the best cow you own (or even a 5 year old cow) then you have been spinning your genetic wheels for a long time.
I can see trying to fix some of the traits in an older animal into your herd.

 

[WyomingRancher]

One other thought... unsound udders don't only compromise production, they increase labor. I've seen my fair share of bad bags... stuff that looked like it was straight out of National Geographic Magazine if you know what I mean, and calves cannot nurse these damn things normally... even if they can get on a teat or two, or even three. I used to start my calving days milking cows out and helping calves get nursed because of these wonderful bags. It seemed like we ran more of a milk parlor than a beef herd at times. NO MORE! Maybe you can now see why I'm so particular about udders :lol: . Granted, your cow's udder is much nicer than what I dealt with.

One other question, what are the udders like out of the daughters from the bulls this cow has produced. In my experience, the udder traits seem to sneak in on the bull side more.

 

[Grassfarmer]

WyomingRancher, We're maybe debating 2 different points. I wouldn't consider a cow working on less than 4 teats as cosmetic either - that is obviously a serious problem. I thought you were saying that the shape of her udder looked like it would be a fault - which I argued given that she has never had any problems with her udder, or suckling calves. That was what I considered cosmetic given that the role of a cows udder is to milk for her calves which this one always has.
Her daughter has a lot better looking udder and we have seen no evidence of udder faults in any of the cow's son's daughters, some of whom are 8 year olds now.

I'm up for a challenge though - lets see some pictures of other cows that are 17 or older and have perfect udders.

RSL - If a 23 year old cow is the best cow you own (or even a 5 year old cow) then you have been spinning your genetic wheels for a long time.

That sounds a no-brainer but upon further thought I'm not sure it's correct. How do you define your "best cow"?
Most show ring rosettes?
highest or best EPDs :roll:
most genetic influence on the herd?
most asthetically pleasing?
highest total calf weight weaned?
highest yearly calf weight weaned?

I think this old cow is easily my best cow. Sure I've got some younger cows that may potentially rival her, or be better even but if they burn out at 10 or 14 they will have produced less, had less genetic influence on my hard. It's a lot easier to judge your cattle retrospectively once their life time influence on your herd is over so for that reason I don't think I can say I have a better cow at the moment. I don't buy into this "dairy world theory" of each crop of heifer calves automatically being superior to their predecessors, too many beef guys are fooled by that in my opinion, especially using the EPDs. What young cattle have is potential that is all - they have to live, and to last, to get experience and turn in results for you. Only once they have accomplished that can you say they are your best cow.

 

[PureCountry]

I don't buy into this "dairy world theory" of each crop of heifer calves automatically being superior to their predecessors, too many beef guys are fooled by that in my opinion, especially using the EPDs. What young cattle have is potential that is all - they have to live, and to last, to get experience and turn in results for you. Only once they have accomplished that can you say they are your best cow.

I agree 100% GF. You and I watched an $11,000 bull sell last weekend that genetically seems predisposed to outperform his sire in every trait. Will he do it? We won't know until we see sons and daughters working in real ranch conditions without grain and pampering. And that in all reality is at least 3 years down the road. It will be 2012 before his 1st daughters calve, 2013 before we see how they breed back after raising their 1st calf, and 2014 and beyond before we realize if there's some real repeatability in the genetics.

Sometimes I envy hog breeders - they can figure out all this crap in 1-2 years. :lol:

 

[PureCountry]

By the way, the heifer looks as good as they come. Deep, thick and fleshy, with tremendous hair. I love her.

The bull looks excellent. Same traits as the heifer.

The old girl looks fabulous. I don't recall seeing a picture of a 23yr old cow on here ever - alive that is. So for her to be in good condition, still producing, with 1 quarter in question after 23 years, I'll go along with you if you say she's your best cow.

The oldest cow we've had was a straight Angus cow that made 19, still producing with a good udder, but she just up and died one day. These Galloways need some more longevity bred into them, I'm seeing that more and more. The oldest cow I have now is coming 15, and I have my doubts that she'll make 20, but I'm really trying to think positive.

You keep posting pics of your Luings, and I'm going to end up at your place with a trailer and a chequebook. :wink:

 

[Grassfarmer]

Thanks PureCountry, Don't bother bringing your trailer yet though - I don't have enough of this quality that I can afford to sell them yet, lol.

I don't know how much you can "breed in" longevity though - I know you certainly don't get it by feeding your cows better as BMR implied. It's got to be there to start with. As you know I grew up with Galloways in their homeland and we rarely got cows past 12 or 13 years old - their narrow hip bones seemed particularly susceptible to arthritis compared to other breeds. The Luing gets it's longevity from the Highland ancestry they are very long lived cattle and 20+ is not unusual for a Highland.
It has always intrigued me that the Texas Longhorn cattle are exceptionally long lived too - I seem to remember seeing a 32 year old featured in a breed magazine once. I'm even more intrigued when I discovered that the Highland and Texas Longhorn share some similarities in their horn genetics - ie neither breed conforms to the rules of the standard breed tables and the %s of heterozygous/homozygous cattle you will get by using the various matings. It's kind of like there is a cattle subspecies - Bos taurus, bos indicus and "funny long lived, big horned cattle."

 

[Yanuck]

she looks to be in great shape GF. I can't speak for BMR, but I took his comment to mean that given the different terrain and grass type between the 2 of yours plays a big factor in a cows longetivity, I doubt there are many 23 year old cows in the Nebraska Sandhills at Soapweeds or in the Utah desert at Leanin'H's either......but that's just how I read it :wink: !

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

she looks to be in great shape GF. I can't speak for BMR, but I took his comment to mean that given the different terrain and grass type between the 2 of yours plays a big factor in a cows longetivity, I doubt there are many 23 year old cows in the Nebraska Sandhills at Soapweeds or in the Utah desert at Leanin'H's either......but that's just how I read it :wink: !

You got it Yanuck.
I was wondering at what age did she lose her teeth?