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Cattlemen concerned about training flights

HAY MAKER

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Cattlemen concerned about training flights
Monday, July 21, 2008, 2:42 PM

by Tom Steever

The planned expansion of an Air Force training complex has cattlemen in four states concerned. The U.S. Air Force plans to expand the Powder River Training Complex into several Montana, Wyoming and North and South Dakota counties.

Montana ranch and auction market operator Pat Goggins (GAHG-uhns) fears the training flights will spook cattle and threaten brush fires. In addition, he thinks any land situated under the airspace could lose value.

He wants affected cattlemen and landowners to attend a meeting about it in Miles City, Montana, Monday, July 28, beginning at 7:00 p.m., Mountain Daylight Time.

R-CALF USA CEO Bill Bullard is all for keeping Air Force crews sharp, but he says the potential disruption of a productive component of the food-production industry is counterproductive.

The Air Force is taking comments on it until August 4. Write before then to:

Ms. Linda DeVine
HQ ACC/A7PP
129 Andrews St., Room 317
Langley AFB, VA 23665-2769
 
What a crock of bull.I live a 100' from the train tracks and It blows the whistle as it goes by and that does'nt spook the cattle or anything else for that matter.We also have training flights from camp Ripley buzz all over this area and knowone has a problem with it.I swear some people would bench if their ice cream was cold.Everyone wants jobs but they don't want anything in their backyard.Last I looked it is 2008 not 1808.
 
Denny said:
What a crock of bull.I live a 100' from the train tracks and It blows the whistle as it goes by and that does'nt spook the cattle or anything else for that matter.We also have training flights from camp Ripley buzz all over this area and knowone has a problem with it.I swear some people would bench if their ice cream was cold.Everyone wants jobs but they don't want anything in their backyard.Last I looked it is 2008 not 1808.

Lots of difference between a freight train hauling coal by at 20 mph sounding his whistle at a crossin,than a fighter jet crossin your pastures low.
good luck
rannet1.gif
 
gotta agree with Denny. sounds like a bunch of folks wanting to get a little cash settlement or something...kinda like the squeeky wheel getting the grease.

the place I buy my bulls is on the Smoky Hills Bombing range, and the cattle are as calm and content as any I ever saw. it bugged me to be there for the morning....I guess 8 - 12 planes flew over.... but the owner said he did not even notice them. cattle seemed to not notice either.
 
I agree it is a bunch of hooey...we have lear jets land and take off over our cattle and horses all day long and they don't even raise their heads. Colyer Herefords are right beside the Airforce base in Mountain Home, Idaho, and I'd go so far to say that they have a pretty successful program with no problems because of the airplanes flying overhead :roll: :roll: But because Pat Goggins says its bad, he expects everyone to agree and take up his cause.
 
The place will live on...gregs homeplace has been on the Wainwright training flight path for over 40 yrs.I'm not sure if I've heard the jets a handful of times. Mostly just see the path they leave.
 
CFB Wainwright used to use our pasture for training maneuvers every spring. They'd have a squadron of soldiers set up a base camp in the bush, and do their best to remain hidden, while another group would scour the area with choppers and jets trying to find them. It only lasted 2-3 weeks at a time, but at night, the choppers would go in real low with those spotlights that brighten up a whole quarter section. The cattle would be in amongst all this comotion, and I don't ever remember losing a cow or having a stampede through a fence. Just our experiences.
 
Denny you ain't never had a B-52 Bomber go over you at around 1000 feet. I had it happen while working on a rock crusher. It scared the crap out of all of us. The crusher was going full bore and we still heard it.
If we all jumped around 6' in the air think about what a herd of cattle will do.

Little something else that is NOT being told. Friend got a letter from the BLM telling him that the USAF will now be doing training for jets and helicoptors on the Missouri River Monument.
Funny they are trying to get rid of the remote airstrips, but now are allowing all types of flights in sure a "pristine" area.
I'll stop here before I really get going and you tell me to go to the politics board.
 
Try drivin' a herd of cattle down a canyon and have three apache helicopters come toolin' over the ridge. Horses bogged thier heads, cattle got scattered from heck to breakfast and two 400 pound steer calves went through a good 5 wire, barb wire fence. When the airforce has literally 1000s of miles of training ranges and airspace, why the heck do they gotta fly 150 miles from the nearest base here? But I guess i am just whining and need to quit belly aching? What if maybe my opinion is right and some of ya'lls is goofy? What if some of ya'll just think you are much wiser and enjoy letting the rest of us know how damn important you are? What if .... aw heck, forget it, ya'll are right. Forgive me for having disagreed and vocalized my actual experiences that would have been in opposition to your all knowing, better than everybody else attitude. Cattle love loud, unexcpected noise. They thrive and actually will wean bigger calves if ya scare the hell out of them once in awhile. :roll:
 
I have had training flight go over me all the time. One time I had a calf with a broken leg. I thought it might be due to getting scared. Of course it wasn't the first broken leg I ever had. I can not honestly blame the jets. So what if they fly over. A small sacrifice on my part. You get used to it, well most of the time.
I think sometimes those guys will buzz a guy for the fun of it because you get a wing wave then. If them flying over helps the military I can oblige them. Honestly it is awesome to watch them especially when they get in a chase. Refueling is great. I just love the wave they will give you once in a while. A small sacrifice on my part.
 
HAY MAKER said:
Denny said:
What a crock of bull.I live a 100' from the train tracks and It blows the whistle as it goes by and that does'nt spook the cattle or anything else for that matter.We also have training flights from camp Ripley buzz all over this area and knowone has a problem with it.I swear some people would bench if their ice cream was cold.Everyone wants jobs but they don't want anything in their backyard.Last I looked it is 2008 not 1808.

Lots of difference between a freight train hauling coal by at 20 mph sounding his whistle at a crossin,than a fighter jet crossin your pastures low.
good luck
rannet1.gif

Try more like 24 trains per day 70 mph.And the training missions from camp are 300 to 400 ft above ground.I for one would be proud and glad to see them training above me that way when my freedom needs protecting I will know they are well trained.
 
This is an interesting topic...when the airforce use to fly over our cattle at very low altitudes, if the cattle were grazing, they ignored the planes even though they were loud, but if we just happened to be moving cattle, and they flew low, then the critters would spook sometimes...but then the same grazing cow will spook at a bird fly up beside them while trailing...so.....? Personnaly I don't think it should a major issue, but that's just my thoughts.
 
I have not been here for a while. In fact I am now in Tiberius waiting for Friday morning to head up into the Golan Heights and the Valley of Tears - all in northern Israel and to a certain extent a piece of Lebanon and Syria.

Expect to be here for one year minimum for sure and quite possibly two.

Had to leave the wife and kids at home for this show. So we burn up a lot of email. Hope to see them sometime next January or February if all goes well for a two week break.

Decided to drop in and see what was happening. I think I can speak on this topic with a fair bit of knowledge as among the many things I am involved with, I am also an F-18 pilot, I have been around cows all my life, I have trained international pilots including some of yours and I also ran one of the worlds largest international military flying exercises - in Cold Lake Alberta for several years.

Hope you folks do not mind me doing this - it is not a lecture - it is the other side of the story.

There are three real issues when training flights start up in a new area:

The first is noise.

Yup it is noisy. But the fact remains that there will be serious efforts made to try to get along "with the neighbours". Remember, most militaries know they have to have the locals on side - therefore they strive to ensure things go smoothly. If that means they have to restrict flights over a person's ranch or house at certain times of the year - a polite visit or letter or a friendly call to the commander will quite likely make this happen. And faster than you might realize. Just be kind enough to let them know when they can lift the restriction!

Training flights will always have certain altitude restrictions, certain speed restrictions and certain routing restrictions in order to make the most out of the flying training and at the same time keeping as many of the locals happy as possible. Sonic flight and associated noises will likely be restricted to very high altitude to minimize potential damage and once again keep the locals happy.

The second is low level flight.

While I touched upon it in the first section, the most important thing for all to remember is the USAF truly is a responsible organization and they will do their darndest to make as small an intrusion into your personal lives as they possibly can. It is quite easy to pick up the telephone and let them know you are moving cattle or you are branding and would appreciate them staying out of that part of the country for a couple of days. They will be happy to oblige.

The third is expedibles.

All fighter and tactical helicopter training involves the use of flares and chaff. Both are ejected from the aircraft to decoy enemy missiles away from the friendly aircraft. These can cause fires if ejected too low. The USAF knows this, as does every air force - so training rules will be in effect. This means there is an altitude restriction - usually a minimum of 4500 feet above ground. The flares are cool by the time they hit the ground and there is no fire risk.

Final comments

Will there be problems? Yup. Nothing runs perfectly and that is just the plain truth. But over time it will become less and less.

You know the guys and gals who do this flight training also want to be good neighbours. They know they are creating inconveniences to the locals but they also want to be able to walk down the street and hold their heads high - not having to worry about having as run-in with someone they pissed off last week out on their ranch. Or worse having someone pick a scrap with them over something they had nothing to do with - and yes that has happened as well.

So, rather than bench about what is going to happen, I believe the best way to solve the issue is to make a point of getting to know them. Invite the training squadron out for a branding - yeah - a bunch of green horns - but they will all be willing to get dirty and do the bull work as long as you show them what to do, feed them and talk to them. They know next to nothing about your operations - and you know next to nothing about theirs.

Next thing you know they will have a "locals come to town" and invite you to their place of work.

We did this in Cold Lake and while nothing ever runs perfect, I can honestly say that it ran very well - and the relationships we had with the locals was excellent overall.

Just my two cents.

Only 113 degrees here today - at 53 years of age I am getting used to body armor and a heavy pack - who says pilots only fly planes?

Best to all

BC
 
Broke Cowboy said:
I have not been here for a while. In fact I am now in Tiberius waiting for Friday morning to head up into the Golan Heights and the Valley of Tears - all in northern Israel and to a certain extent a piece of Lebanon and Syria.

Expect to be here for one year minimum for sure and quite possibly two.

Had to leave the wife and kids at home for this show. So we burn up a lot of email. Hope to see them sometime next January or February if all goes well for a two week break.

Decided to drop in and see what was happening. I think I can speak on this topic with a fair bit of knowledge as among the many things I am involved with, I am also an F-18 pilot, I have been around cows all my life, I have trained international pilots including some of yours and I also ran one of the worlds largest international military flying exercises - in Cold Lake Alberta for several years.

Hope you folks do not mind me doing this - it is not a lecture - it is the other side of the story.

There are three real issues when training flights start up in a new area:

The first is noise.

Yup it is noisy. But the fact remains that there will be serious efforts made to try to get along "with the neighbours". Remember, most militaries know they have to have the locals on side - therefore they strive to ensure things go smoothly. If that means they have to restrict flights over a person's ranch or house at certain times of the year - a polite visit or letter or a friendly call to the commander will quite likely make this happen. And faster than you might realize. Just be kind enough to let them know when they can lift the restriction!

Training flights will always have certain altitude restrictions, certain speed restrictions and certain routing restrictions in order to make the most out of the flying training and at the same time keeping as many of the locals happy as possible. Sonic flight and associated noises will likely be restricted to very high altitude to minimize potential damage and once again keep the locals happy.

The second is low level flight.

While I touched upon it in the first section, the most important thing for all to remember is the USAF truly is a responsible organization and they will do their darndest to make as small an intrusion into your personal lives as they possibly can. It is quite easy to pick up the telephone and let them know you are moving cattle or you are branding and would appreciate them staying out of that part of the country for a couple of days. They will be happy to oblige.

The third is expedibles.

All fighter and tactical helicopter training involves the use of flares and chaff. Both are ejected from the aircraft to decoy enemy missiles away from the friendly aircraft. These can cause fires if ejected too low. The USAF knows this, as does every air force - so training rules will be in effect. This means there is an altitude restriction - usually a minimum of 4500 feet above ground. The flares are cool by the time they hit the ground and there is no fire risk.

Final comments

Will there be problems? Yup. Nothing runs perfectly and that is just the plain truth. But over time it will become less and less.

You know the guys and gals who do this flight training also want to be good neighbours. They know they are creating inconveniences to the locals but they also want to be able to walk down the street and hold their heads high - not having to worry about having as run-in with someone they p****d off last week out on their ranch. Or worse having someone pick a scrap with them over something they had nothing to do with - and yes that has happened as well.

So, rather than bench about what is going to happen, I believe the best way to solve the issue is to make a point of getting to know them. Invite the training squadron out for a branding - yeah - a bunch of green horns - but they will all be willing to get dirty and do the bull work as long as you show them what to do, feed them and talk to them. They know next to nothing about your operations - and you know next to nothing about theirs.

Next thing you know they will have a "locals come to town" and invite you to their place of work.

We did this in Cold Lake and while nothing ever runs perfect, I can honestly say that it ran very well - and the relationships we had with the locals was excellent overall.

Just my two cents.

Only 113 degrees here today - at 53 years of age I am getting used to body armor and a heavy pack - who says pilots only fly planes?

Best to all

BC

Thanx for your 2 cents,also impressed that you fly jets,you got me wondering just how many base commanders you have been in contact with,because the ones I have had contact with I found arrogant and all military,kinda comes with the job,its a fact Military base commanders are tough as nails,its military all the time.
Knowing how hard they are to access has me wondering about your flowery post.
Being close proximity to San Antonio the military capital of the world has me well educated in air force training flights and cattle,I have tried repeatedly to get a flight schedule from the base commander at Randolph with no luck.
But I chalk the flight training up as neccessary for the good of the country.
good luck

PS and yes I have worked in,on,and around just about every military base in Texas,met more than one base commander
 
Haymaker says "PS and yes I have worked in,on,and around just about every military base in Texas,met more than one base commandeer"



Haymaker did you sell hay for the army mules in WW1?

:roll: :lol:
 
Stay safe BC,thanks for adding your knowledge in this area.You and the guys you trained are looking out for our freedom{both countries} the least we can do is be tolerant and supportive of the training excerices.
 
all this nonsence is similar to those who are conscience objectors....asking others to defend thier right to not fight.....

a little sacrifice by us for the greater good is not so bad....
 

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