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Commodity Prices

RobertMac

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
3,705
Location
Mississippi, USA
Who/what is driving commodity prices...fundamentals (supply/demand) or fear driven speculation by speculators/market funds?

I'm dumb on this subject, so I'm looking for opinions by those smarter than me.
 
RobertMac, I'am not smarter and those commodity speculators/market funds are not either. All they are doing is looking to find the best return on spec money which happens to be oil and commoditys that are in short supply.
They are like a bunch of chickens when you throw a hand full of grain out on the ground, they run like hell to be the first and pick as many grains as possible because they are stupid . They didn't realize that there was a bucket full and there was more to be had. They ate so fast that they created their own shortage. No or low supply creates demand.
 
In the end I would bet Demand.The world is alot hungrier than they let on.Road kill is back to being sought after around here by many.A year ago a deer got hit it would lay along the road and rot now they scoop them right up.With higher input cost's alot of sod-buster's here are choseing to plant small grain's or soybeans instead of corn.A good bean crop here is 40 bushels,a good corn crop is 150 buschels alot more lbs. of food off a corn acre.
 
The world is alot hungrier than they let on. Thats a good statement! I read last night that if everyone went to the grocery and bought a two weeks supply , the first 20% of the shoppers would lay the shelves and stockrooms bare.
 
RobertMac said:
Who/what is driving commodity prices...fundamentals (supply/demand) or fear driven speculation by speculators/market funds?

I'm dumb on this subject, so I'm looking for opinions by those smarter than me.

Short answer -- index funds. No limit to how much they can buy, they always go long. Prices are divorced from fundamentals enough that true hedgers cannot count on hedges to resolve to cash. Serious issue. CFTC is meeting today to discuss this very issue. Only topic they will talk about.

Some talk about solving by requiring cash settlement, not delivery. This same phenomenon also affects other commodities, like oil.
 
According to some, high commodity prices (especially corn) is good for the beef industry.

ocm wrote:
The oldtimers have always said cheap corn means cheap cattle. The opposite is also true, but it takes a period of adjustment. The price move was relatively sudden. As long as ethanol production is relatively stable and is expected to be that way for a while the higher price of corn is bullish for the cattle market. So why whine.
http://ranchers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21680&highlight=ethanol
 
Bill said:
According to some, high commodity prices (especially corn) is good for the beef industry.

ocm wrote:
The oldtimers have always said cheap corn means cheap cattle. The opposite is also true, but it takes a period of adjustment. The price move was relatively sudden. As long as ethanol production is relatively stable and is expected to be that way for a while the higher price of corn is bullish for the cattle market. So why whine.
http://ranchers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21680&highlight=ethanol

These are actually two different things. One is high grain prices based on fundamentals of the market. (the ocm comment). The other is the futures market prices being high and unrelated to the cash market or the underlying fundamentals of the market. (the topic of this thread)

Over a long period of time high grain prices would, in an open market, cause cattle prices to go higher.
 
Thanks, Cinch...that's what I was looking for...now I'm going to show my ignorance again.

I thought the requirement to deliver on a contract was the mechanism to check run away speculation and keep board price tied to open market cash prices. There has been no increase in the cost of producing a barrel of oil to justify the increase in board price AND, as far as I know, there has been no REAL shortage of fuel.

And, I think, expanding the daily limits on commodities only added to the disconnect and increased volatility of the markets...which is what the speculators wanted.
 
RobertMac said:
Thanks, Cinch...that's what I was looking for...now I'm going to show my ignorance again.

I thought the requirement to deliver on a contract was the mechanism to check run away speculation and keep board price tied to open market cash prices. There has been no increase in the cost of producing a barrel of oil to justify the increase in board price AND, as far as I know, there has been no REAL shortage of fuel.

And, I think, expanding the daily limits on commodities only added to the disconnect and increased volatility of the markets...which is what the speculators wanted.

So did I. If it were up to me, I would tell the index funds to go play somewhere else. That would be my solution. The cash settlement idea is a solution that has been floated, and I don't completely understand how that would be better than the delivery requirement.

Part of the problem in all this is that the futures sets the cash price and not the other way around. When I buy corn, the guy I buy from looks at today's board price first. I don't see how either delivery or cash settlement would solve that.

Just a point of clarification. Many of these funds are "hedging" as follows. They own stock in Mattel and Hasbro which are toymakers, making toys out of plastic. To protect their investment, they buy oil futures, since plastic is made out of oil. If their toy companies take a hit because of the price of plastic, the index fund is protected by owning oil futures. So they are not counted as speculators and do not have the limits on them speculators would have.
 
I have some questions too. First I was under the impression that all contracts are not backed by the commodity. I am under the impression that a lot more contracts are traded than there is commodity. Maybe someone can clarify this. Also I am really miffed that I saw an add on the cbot website advertising a school to do day trading on the cbot. I think day trading should be abolished because the ones doing day trading have to have some inside information to buy and sell in a few hours. This also screws somebody who has to sell on the end of the day price. (cash) It's pure speculation unless you have info before everyone else. It scews up the market. Maybe someone can comment on that. I think the SEC banned hedge fund managers from day trading because they were making huge profits because they knew when they were going to buy or sell large blocks that would move the market. Maybe they just moved to commodities to pratise that.
 
cedardell said:
I have some questions too. First I was under the impression that all contracts are not backed by the commodity. I am under the impression that a lot more contracts are traded than there is commodity. Maybe someone can clarify this. Also I am really miffed that I saw an add on the cbot website advertising a school to do day trading on the cbot. I think day trading should be abolished because the ones doing day trading have to have some inside information to buy and sell in a few hours. This also screws somebody who has to sell on the end of the day price. (cash) It's pure speculation unless you have info before everyone else. It scews up the market. Maybe someone can comment on that. I think the SEC banned hedge fund managers from day trading because they were making huge profits because they knew when they were going to buy or sell large blocks that would move the market. Maybe they just moved to commodities to pratise that.

Deliveries of commodities does not happen for all commodities. Delivery only happens for the current month. Right now that would be April contracts. Most never get to delivery. Of all the contracts for April owned the "oldest" contract gets delivered first (how long it has been held).

Many traders would now be trading in April contracts for May or June or further out. (e.g. Sell and April contract, buy a June contract)

At any given time total contracts outstanding (open interest) can be many times more in volume than available commodity.

Technically, you are correct, no contract has an actual commodity behind it. It only becomes otherwise during the contract month, when delivery is a potential.

Day traders serve a useful purpose. The market could not function without them. Since they are speculators their volumes are limited. Not so with index funds.

PS The CFTC has initially announced that it plans no changes in the market concerning index funds after their meeting Tuesday.
 
The specs. aren't causing any problems. As a matter of fact, they're generally the losers. They provide liquidity so the "real" people have a better chance of getting the position that they want. At the end of the day, they're out - generally with less money than they started with.

The funds are the ones that need to be reined in. They've got lots of cash and they are the ones moving the market. They'll buy up a bunch of contracts, say June Live Cattle, and the sheer volume of their trades runs up the price. They don't have to take delivery of any actual cattle as long as all their positions are closed out by expiration day in June. I used to think this was OK and that producers should take advantage. However, Terry Stevenson convinced me otherwise and the current situation is proving him right. Because of the funds moving the markets, there is now a disconnect from the reason the commodity markets were created, which is to give buyers and sellers of a certain commodity a place to hedge their business.
 
I don't understand it all either, but I've been reading and looking for answers for a while now. Because our interest rates are too low and people can't put money into savings and get a big return they are looking for wherever the biggest return is. Right now, commodities (oil and grains and metals) are the biggest return.

The bad part, which is detrimental to Joe6Pack on mainstreet is that he doesn't speculate in commodities. He's not playing the futures market (yes, its paper contracts that have a delivery date and those speculating sell the "paper contract" before its delivery time and there's more "paper contracts" than actual supply.

That's another reason why the Japanese carry trade is detrimental. They give out loans to big business and elites at 1/2% and those funds are invested wherever they get the greatest return, which happens to be commdities. Its a vicious circle and we're gonna end up with a bigger bust than ever. As long as the Federal Reserve keeps lower interest rates to keep bailing out wall street, then mainstreet is going to face inflation.
These lower interest rates keep the consumer from buying gadgets because they are too busy trying to buy food, fuel, utilities and medicine.

IF the federal reserve would raise interest rates, then the commodities bubble would pop, (its gonna pop anyway sooner or later when Joe6pack can't afford it) BUT we've also got to put tarriffs on imported goods, otherwise we will be flooded with imports again. Japan and China have kept their money pegged to the dollar for too long just so they could flood the US with imports. The only way we can get our trade deficit down is to put tariffs on import goods but Washington can't see that. These trade agreements that export jobs to the cheapest labor country and all we do is import goods has got to stop. We're soon gonna be a third world country ourselves.

New York, New England and the West Coast have already started limiting food supplies because Americans are starting to hoard. I've always hoarded because it stems back to my fat days when food was comfort, so if I get stressed about something I fill up the cupboards and the deepfreeze with foods we use that is on sale. Hubby don't have to worry about me going to the mall!!!

I read these sites with frequency and the comments afterwards are just as good, usually.
http://elainemeinelsupkis.typepad.com/ (now I don't always agree with her greek mythology stuff and opera themes, I never liked those classes in school as it doesn't jive with the bible, but its helped me to understand more of the Jap carry trade)

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/

and there are several food articles here about one inch down on your side margin
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/index.html

and this website is usually good
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy.html

I realize many folks want the doom and gloom to stop, but you can't put your head in the sand and until enough Americans wake up and get involved with their congressional leaders antics or lack of and start letting them know what they are for or against this country is going to continue on the wrong track. They were elected to serve THE PEOPLE, not corporations and we've got to start voicing our opinion. Its lunacy to continue to let congress get by and not serve mainstreet instead of wallstreet.
 
But I still don't understand about the day traders. My conception is that they buy a contract and then turn around and sell it within a few hours if the market moves in their favor. So how does this help price discovery?
 
cedardell said:
But I still don't understand about the day traders. My conception is that they buy a contract and then turn around and sell it within a few hours if the market moves in their favor. So how does this help price discovery?

If you look at a lot of the contracts, you'll see that there isn't a whole lot of trades in one day, say something like 5000 (compared to several million for a typical stock). That means that if a producer might want to get in or get out at a certain price, there is nobody on the other side willing to take his trade so he'll sit there either waiting or he'll have to lower his bid, and might not even be able to make a trade at all. ( You can't just make a trade at whatever you want, the CME and CBOT is just a building to get buyers and sellers together. Thus, you need a seller if you want to buy or a buyer if you want to sell.) The more traders there are, the better the chance of making a trade at the price you want.
 
Back to the original question...
Is the stock market reflective of the fundamentals of our economy or does it drive/distort the economic fundamentals?

Are oil and commodity prices reflective of fundamentals of our economy (real world supply/demand) or are prices where they are because the market thinks that is where they should be?
 
RobertMac said:
Back to the original question...
Is the stock market reflective of the fundamentals of our economy or does it drive/distort the economic fundamentals?

Are oil and commodity prices reflective of fundamentals of our economy (real world supply/demand) or are prices where they are because the market thinks that is where they should be?

Because of the nature of the markets, I think it is hard to compare stock prices and commodity prices in this manner. With commodities, you've got a physical product that is actally being created and used. Not so with stocks.

Also, I think it is much easier to push commodity prices into lala land because the markets are much smaller and you have fewer participants. Stocks will get distorted too, but there is a whole lot more players in the game and it is much harder for a couple of them to push it in one direction with their volume.
 
Just for comparitive purposes to see the differences in the commodities and stock markets, I looked at June Live Cattle and Ford.

June LC the last 100 days has averaged about 36,000 trades/day. At $1100 a contract, it would take $39.6 Million to buy every contract for one day. Compare that to Ford that averages 58 million trades/day @ $10 and it would take $580 million to do the same. Then consider that you've only got 20 or so major commodities and several newspaper pages of stocks. It's pretty easy to see which market could get distorted because of big outside money.
 
Again, showing my ignorance :oops: ...I think my first question could have been better phrased.

Are the commodity and stock markets reflective of the fundamentals of our economy or do they drive/distort the economic fundamentals?

Sandhusker said:
Because of the nature of the markets, I think it is hard to compare stock prices and commodity prices in this manner. With commodities, you've got a physical product that is actually being created and used. Not so with stocks.

Wait a minute...are you telling us that there is product out there to cover every futures commodity contract??? :???:

And wasn't there a dot-com bubble of distorted stock prices that recently popped???

I wish some of these speculators would come gamble in our Mississippi casinos...we could sure use the money!!!!
 

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