Disposition, is it Heritable or Learned

[flyingS]

Disposition seems to be something that comes up in every breed discussion there is. So is it a heritable trait or a learned behavior and do you have hard facts associated with your opinion. I am not that old, but have spent my entire life literally envolved in ranching. Growing up we had some no good ornary rips that were dangerous for anyone to be around. I learned to handle cattle any way it took to get it done, lots of time that was pretty quick or on the end of a 30ft rope. Maturing quite a little, as well as working for lots of other people and a stockmanship class has taught me a better way. So, has genetics improved disposition or have we become more concerned with how we handle our cattle and found a better way. I say it is a learned behavior, I still handle cattle that are just as bad to today as the cows we ran when I was a kid. If you slow down and take your time you can do something with them, if you cowboy them it becomes a lot of work. I started fighting bulls when I was in college, I also took care of all the bucking stock. I hand fed bulls in a bunk that I didn't want to get caught by in the arena, they were the real deal. They also learned that when they were in the arena it was game on, feeding them with the exception of one or two you could walk right through them. I think you can off set most temperment problems with proper handling.

 

[littlejoe]

We bought about 100 10 yr old cows from neighboring big outfit.

Deal was, I'd bring a guy, they'd furnish a couple.

There was 200+ in a field couple miles from the corral, already been culled for physical defects, etc, we wanted to bring in enuf to do a little sorting.

When we rode into the field, it was like running buffalo, full bore for a mile or so to get ahead and turn them. these cows ---pretty good cows, straight angus, lotsa emulation 31 breeding and similiar---were a real treat to be around. About 20% were total nut cases in a chute or jug. About every damn one of them would hit chute like they were trying to tear the end outa it. They had been worked lots--scour guard, pre breeding shots, etc. Some of the crew thought blue heelers, whips, hotshots, yippee ki yay was what's its all about.

I got about another 4 yrs outa them. After 2, i was short a couple. Told the guy on this big ranch that i got them from--at closest calving barn---that they were probably in with his. He didn't think so---said we night lot them, we'd of seen them. I told him my brand was on other side, they'd look like all his cows. He called me back kinda embarrassed, says yup they're there---we agreed he'd catch them when handy and i'd come get.

Anyhow, i show up to load them up. The crew says "Boy---your cows sure work a lot better than ours!" "PLum sensible!" I busted out laughing, said i only had 2 yrs to take the kinks out that you guys had 10 to put in.

I bought some really nice, framey, polled hefefords from a guy in canyon creek. Kept all the good F1 heifers. We're the only ones every handled them. These dolls you can often suckle a calf in a jug w/o restraining the cow. All our cows will pretty much come to the truck, if you honk the horn. We lead way more than we push, when moving or corraling.

The latest set of these heifers is about 85% calved out and still on winter range. Hand pulled one--in the open---jugged 2 to convince they couldn't both claim the same calf. But---it's been a banana belt here---lotsa vest only days, some T shirt days.

I think disposition is a combination of both genetics and envirionment. A few are natural born lunkheads. But most lunkhaids are probably caused by 2 legged lunkhaids.

I also think there's a helluva lota people who need to learn the difference between so called 'cowboying' and stockmanship.

Thanks for pm, flyingS~~

 

[Anonymous]

 

[flyingS]

There are defineately some misfits out there. Most of them are like a bunch of renegade kids though, with a little understanding and guideance they come out of it and become a productive part of the herd. No doubt once in awhile a little discipline doesn't hurt either but if you get heavy with the stick they will learn your a threat. I've seen some bad ones and I've seen some that people just thought were bad. The set off cows my family took care of growing up where Chi-X cows, they gave me experiences I never forgot. Those experiences turned me into a pretty good bullfighter with a good eye for reading bulls with very little experience. The guy that ran the bulls asked me one time how I developed the ability to read those bulls so fast. I had to tell him his little flanked 2yr old bucking bulls were nothing compared to tagging calves at home. Those experiences also turned me into a pretty good cowboy that didn't waste anytime getting a rope down if I couldn't put one where I wanted her. After attending a Bud Williams school, I learned to become a stockman and pretty well hung my rope up until branding season rolled around or I had to doctor something which became almost absolete as well.
LJ glad to help let me know if I can answer anymore questions for you.

 

[Silver]

Of course I realize that all of us on here know more than anyone else about how to work cows and our cows are better and more gentle than non-Ranchers.net folks, but it can still happen that some cows don't have the disposition we are looking for. Sometimes this bad disposition appears to follow a genetic line, and sometimes it just happens.
The craziest cow I ever saw on this place had daughters you could get in a stall with to suckle a calf and made great cows.
I think if the solution was simple there would be no disposition problems left to sort out, other than the cattle of those non-Ranchers.net folks of course :wink: :lol:

 

[LazyWP]

Not everyone can be a COWBOY can they Flyin S?

 

[leanin' H]

I think that wild cattle happen in all breeds. We calved a herd of cows for a neighbor for 3 years. We nicknamed one old Hereford "Kamakazi" cause she was plain poison when she calved. I have watched a tarantaise bull destroy a gate to try and get a guy behind it. That being said, i still think how you work cattle has much more to do with how they act than genetics. One waspy cow will happen. A herd of them reflects on the skill, or lack thereof, of the guy or guys who run them. I have bought a few late calving cows as i have worked to build my numbers up. These cows are summered on the mountain and wintered on the desert. They get worked twice a year max and can be pretty high headed when they get here and are yarded all winter and fed from a stackyard and manger. I am certainly not God's gift to ranching but i have enjoyed watching those ol' gals mellow out and get mostly gentle after a few months. To me, it doesnt matter whether you have a horse and rope outfit or a calf table or a 4 wheeler or a ballcap or a stetson. It matters a lot more whats under your choice of headgear. I am a heck of a better hand at 44 than i was at 24. :wink: Great topic Flying S.

 

[whitecow]

Having calved out a few hundred clones, I can tell you that there is absolutely a BIG genetic factor associated with disposition. But there can also be a pretty big environmental influence. A crazy recip or severe mishandling can mess up a perfectly calm animal.

 

[flyingS]

I think lots of people mistake being a good mother for having a bad disposition. If the rip is a head hunter when her calf is weaned and your pregging that is a different story. Hell mess with my kids and see what there momma acts like, I guarantee you won't ever see that bad disposition any other way.

 

[flyingS]

Silver, I am not saying the cattle I handle are better than everyone else's, matter of fact they are less than desireable for most folks. The only genetic line I have ever observed was the ignorance of someone keeping a replacement heifer out of a cow they don't like because she raises a hell of a calf or because she has their favorite bloodline. Most of the cows we cull for disposition do raise one heck of a calf. I know nothing of genetic lines mainly because I believe in hard facts and epd's not genetic potential, nor am I a fan of straight bred cattle. I am glad there are people out there willing to raise a good base for a good crossbred cow so I can cash in on the only free lunch there is (HYBRID VIGOR). It's always easier to blame something on a factor out of your control than take responsibility and admit that maybe you need to change the way you are doing things. As far as thinking that there is an abundance of good operaters here on ranchers that have it all figured out, I wouldn't go that far because I only know a handful of members. There is a lot of experience and several good ideas on here.

 

[leanin' H]

I think lots of people mistake being a good mother for having a bad disposition. If the rip is a head hunter when her calf is weaned and your pregging that is a different story. Hell mess with my kids and see what there momma acts like, I guarantee you won't ever see that bad disposition any other way.

I aint one of them. When a cow goes over, under or through a 7 rail panel to kill you, she may be a great mother but she would make better hamburger. I can put up with a waspy cow. I like a protective mama. Keeps the coyotes away. But some cows completely lose thier mind and go into great white shark mode. But only once. :wink:

My defiition of bad disposition is the kind that hunt the cedars if you happen to have your saddle creak four miles away. The ones that make it neccesary to replace 3 gates after working her. I agree that genetics play a part, but even tame cattle get snorty if they are handled wrong,enough times.

 

[RSL]

I think I might argue that behaviour is learned and disposition is largely genetic. We have had situations where the same cows, in the same cowherd, managed in the same way, by the same people. Some cows are overly gentle, the majority are average and the occasional one is basically a killer cow. I have been in cowherds where the whole herd has a learned behaviour of quietness, but there are still differences between the cows. In other herds, the cows will follow the saddle horse, some more closely/curiously/quietly than others. I have been in herds where the cattle the cattle have been cowboyed too much and will run away and scatter from a horse, but there are still distinct differences between the individuals.
We have had sires that threw calves that would run and tremble in the corner even after pail feeding calves by hand for several months. We have also had sires that threw calves that you had to push out of the way. Handling can ease the burden of disposition problems, but it sure can't solve all of them.

 

[PATB]

I think I might argue that behaviour is learned and disposition is largely genetic. We have had situations where the same cows, in the same cowherd, managed in the same way, by the same people. Some cows are overly gentle, the majority are average and the occasional one is basically a killer cow. I have been in cowherds where the whole herd has a learned behaviour of quietness, but there are still differences between the cows. In other herds, the cows will follow the saddle horse, some more closely/curiously/quietly than others. I have been in herds where the cattle the cattle have been cowboyed too much and will run away and scatter from a horse, but there are still distinct differences between the individuals.
We have had sires that threw calves that would run and tremble in the corner even after pail feeding calves by hand for several months. We have also had sires that threw calves that you had to push out of the way. Handling can ease the burden of disposition problems, but it sure can't solve all of them.

I agree

I have one cow family that is becoming terminal due to disposition challenges;

 

[Big Swede]

Good thread Flying S, lots of great comments.

 

[Broke Cowboy]

I do not know for sure but we work them quiet.

Any of the girls that get a bit wild tend to be culled over time.

Over all they are a reasonable group. I am betting the answer is a combination of handling and genetics.

But what would I know - I can actually work cattle with my wife and still carry on a civil conversation with her while we do it.

Mind you if I did raise my voice I would not be able to sleep safely! LOL

Best to all

BC

 

[gcreekrch]

I often wonder what others do to their cows when handling them or putting them through a chute.

We have traded a lot of cows over the years and it seems most of them have had nothing but bad experiences with humans. Not saying I'm the greatest cowman/boy that ever was born either but most cattle end up where I want them once we start.
I brought a 3 year old with a dead calf (head back) in her out of 180 head in a 40 acre pen today, the cow hadn't been trying too hard so wasn't worn out and she is a little flighty. The cow may have trotted the last 100 yards when we broke out of the bunch but she went where we started for. BTW, I was on my trusty 4 wheeler. :wink:

Nearly every cow we have purchased has a real aversion to going into a sqeeze when they arrive. The only time they are caught here is for pregging or calving problems. We vaccinate in the alley and let them go out through an open chute. It is amazing to see the change in how these cows flow after they've been through a couple of times. The last 2 years it has been more a case of holding cows back and not bothering with gates at preg time.

Do others catch every cow every time they handle them? Are most prone to using hot-shots and shovels where they aren't needed? The only time I pick up a stick in the corrals is to prod an unwilling one through the chute or if I'm mad. The rest of the time body language is much more effective.

As far as the difference between cowmen and cowboys, I've seen pictures posted here where some feel the need to wear chinks and spurs to push cattle through a chute. never realized my dress made me one or the other. :wink:

 

[Faster horses]

On this place a cow has every chance NOT to be wild. If she is, it is due
to genetics. We work 'em slow and easy. Mr. FH watches them and he can
tell when and how they want to be moved. And it's not always the same.

What is interesting, he never YELLS at cattle. NEVER. He may swing his rope to bother them, but he never yells and he doesn't want his help to,
either.

He went to help a good friend work his cows and he was late getting
there. The cows were in the A-pen and the guys working them were
having a dickens of a time getting the cows up the alley. Mr. FH suggested
they go on up and help at the chute and he would bring them the cows.
He never had a bit of trouble. At noon, when they went in to eat, the other
guys asked him, "what did you do, hypnotize those cows?"

I've seen him move yearlings across a creek by himself by riding horseback
kind of around and through them, then calling them. They are curious
and follow him...pretty interesting to watch.

He was helping a friend ship one time and when they got the calves
off the cows, the owner turned those cows back out with the cows that
still had their calves. They gathered this bunch the next day. It was a real
mess. The cows whose calves had been shipped were running all over
trying to find their calves. As they got closer to the corral, it was all the
riders could do to hold the bunch and it looked like they were gonna lose
them. :shock: Mr. FH loped ahead of the cows and
started bawling like a calf. All the cows that had calves shipped the
day before started running after him to the corral. Of course the
cows with calves followed. When they were done, Mr. FH,
was told "neat trick, Mr. FH." (of course, they used his name, not Mr. FH ).

He had an older friend in Wyoming that he really looked up to.This guy had the ability to read cows and know how to work WITH the cattle instead of
against them. That's who Mr. FH learned from and it has stood him well
over the years. It was always fun and interesting to help him. And there's
never much dust.

I hope no one takes offense of me bragging on him, as he would never
brag on himself, or tell anyone how to work cattle. :? But he might say,
"slow is fast."

We started buying bulls from some friends of ours and every year we could
see our young cows were getting more flighty, while our older cows were
fine. We had always watched the dispostions because he said we
couldn't have wild cattle on this 'ma and pa' outfit.
We thought back and the problem had to
come f rom those bulls. While the bulls didn't act wild as a whole, some of the young cows were pretty bad. We sold some that were bred as opens because we didn't want them and wedidn't want someone else to buy them and then maybe get hurt.

So I call it genetic...there was no reason for cows to get wild here over the
way they were handled.

 

[flyingS]

I am confident in my ability to handle cattle anyway I am asked. Many times I am not always in the best of company due to not being the boss and working for several outfits. Lots of time I end up dealing with someone elses mess due to my roping ability. Now most of you will think that this is cowboying, call it what you want. I generally could have walked, most of the cows to the gate and had her roped if she didn't take her chance and corralled before the other guy ever got her to the gate much less the time he spent running her around when she missed it. I generally can ride up take my rope off myself and she is not on the fight, that's not they case when you have to clean up someone elses mess.
Every animal obviously has its own personality, therefore you have to handle each individual differently. Confidence has as much to do with it as anything. I get asked a lot to gather something that someone else can't gather and the have jousted the crap out of. Very seldom do I have to rope something, the only time I do is when time is a factor or she is on the prod so bad I can't handle her safely. Generally speaking I can gain control of her and walk her in even if she had gotten on the prod with them.
My point is all those people think their cattle are hard to handle or have a disposition problem, generally it is there own lack of patience and ability. If she is a man eater there are only 2 solutions, quit tagging or cut her head off. If my cows were exceptional, I would quit tagging, I won't have to worry about her calf anyway.

 

[Silver]

Silver, I am not saying the cattle I handle are better than everyone else's, matter of fact they are less than desireable for most folks. The only genetic line I have ever observed was the ignorance of someone keeping a replacement heifer out of a cow they don't like because she raises a hell of a calf or because she has their favorite bloodline. Most of the cows we cull for disposition do raise one heck of a calf. I know nothing of genetic lines mainly because I believe in hard facts and epd's not genetic potential, nor am I a fan of straight bred cattle. I am glad there are people out there willing to raise a good base for a good crossbred cow so I can cash in on the only free lunch there is (HYBRID VIGOR). It's always easier to blame something on a factor out of your control than take responsibility and admit that maybe you need to change the way you are doing things. As far as thinking that there is an abundance of good operaters here on ranchers that have it all figured out, I wouldn't go that far because I only know a handful of members. There is a lot of experience and several good ideas on here.

I was just being a little tongue in cheek 'S, wasn't pointing fingers at anyone. Heck, Lord knows I'm the last one should be doing that.
This is actually a really good topic and I don't think there are any black and white answers. The point was made that the ole girl that throws a proper fit at calving isn't necessarily a bad dispositioned cow is a good one, but everyone has their own tolerance for that. Like Little Joe I do believe that the way cattle are handled has a great deal to do with cattles disposition. That being said, if all cattle are handled the same way some are far more likely to come un-stapled than others.

 

[flyingS]

Silver you said a mouth full. "if all cattle are handled the same way some are far more likely to come un-stapled than others". That seperates a stockman from a cowman or a cowboy. Similar to the difference between a horse trainer and someone who breaks horses. Cattle are much smarter than given credit and have a better ability to read our body language and emotion than most of us do theirs. If you go at it with the mindset that you are going to make her do something you may as well tell your wife how to cook or clean her house, she will at least forgive you in time.