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Does This Add Up?

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Northern Rancher

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I was looking through an A'I catalogue and I compared a bulls epd's to his Igenity profile. He's in the top 20% of the breed for yield grade, and the top 10% for ribeye area and slightly below average for fat thickness. His Igenity profile gives him him a 10 for ribeye area, a 10 for carcass weight but a 1 for yield grade. The bull has a .8 accuracy on his EPD's so am I right in assuming he sires good yielding cattle even though he doesn't have a genetic marker to support it. I'd probably use him according to what is calves have actually done not on how they should.
 
NR:

The reason it doesn't make sense, is that the DNA markers (from all companies, not just Igenity) are not accurate as of yet, because of their "newness." All the geneticists I've asked have said the most accurate are those evaluating tenderness. They are also the oldest. The other wild card in DNA analysis is that there are likely many genes, yet to be found that will have significant impact on analyzed traits.

I think DNA markers will have a significant, positive impact on matings and selection in the future, but in my opinion, they are nowhere near accurate enough today for me to put much stock in.

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
I am sure someday that the DNA markers are going to mean something but for now I don't think they have much validity. I can't wait until they can find the gene that tells us which cow will be the one that keeps her calf alive in a -20 below blizzard. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I am still trying understand how to read the Igenity results. I agree that it is so new and probably will get more accurate with time. My understanding is that the Igenity score is to be used comparing one bull against another.
-A 10 for ribeye means it should have 2.56" bigger ribeye than a sire with a score of 1.
- 10 on yield grade will have a yield grade of 1.35 higher than a sire with a score of 1.
-A 10 on % choice or higher will throw 64.4% more animals with choice or higher than a sire with a score of 1.

Now to answer whether this adds up to a direct comparison with epd's, The heck if I know. :???: Let me know when you figure it out.
 
I tried the Igenity test on few sires. On a bull that I purchased this spring
AAA #16224718
- He had a adj. Ribeye of 12.9, RE epd +.19, his Igenity Ribeye score was a 4.
- His adj. IMF was 3.83, Marb.epd +.23. His Igenity percent choice score was a 7. Marbling score 7 and his tenderness score a 10.
-$YG -2.10, His Igenity yield grade score was an 8.

A Ribeye score of 4 means he would have .80" bigger ribeye than a score of 1. Or by subtraction a 1.76" smaller ribeye than a score of 10. So would this mean a bull that had a Ribeye of 14.66" would score a 10?
And a bull with a score of 1 would have a ribeye of 12.1"?
 
I'm starting to like the way Soapweed choses bull's alot less headache less money and look's like a good end product.
 
Soapweed said:
The only EPD I go by is that I don't go "buy" any EPD's. :)
Click to expand...

Exactly. It is my belief that epd's and papers belong in the same file.... the little round one beside the desk :wink:
 
If you give a cowman a bull's birthdate and his weight he will pick the good ones without a bunch of confusing paperwork. I try to pick more by type than anything else.
 
Guess I'm just a Curious George-the bull I mentioned is from a breed I don't even use but I found the disparity interesting. The whole information deal would become a lot more economically stimulating if individual carcass data was available to every player in the game. We've sold on the grid for years and the difference in value between the best and the worst is really amazing. Carcass data is down the list in bull selection but it's on the list but more so the bulls individual data rather than epd's. For instance is a bull has a bunch of BF he better have a high marbling score too. I put up a carcass trophy for the district 4H show for years till we could know longer get individual carcass data on the steers. Only ONCE did the Grand Champion hang the best carcass-Once it hung the worst-most of the time it was just kind of in the middle. Some of you selling calves are leaving money on the table while some are robbing the house-until individual ID allows data to be shared industry wide we really can't be sure.
 
My cattle are sold on the grid and I receive individual data back both on carcass quality and performance. I have room for improvement, but yet on the maternal end, a cow still needs perform here at home and the terminal end needs to perform in the feedlot and on the hook.
When I select a sire, it is not based on carcass quality, but I will not buy a bull without any carcass data. For that matter I will not buy a bull that has no epd's either. There are so many Angus bulls out there, if they don't give the data I will go else where. I will use any tool I can, you just need to know when & how to use them.
I tried the Igenity test for the first time on a few bulls just out curiousity as was Northern Rancher. (To find out whether it adds up)
You can't always judge a book by its cover, a sire neither. I have seen a 4-H steer placed at the very bottom at our county fair and then come home with the carcass trophy. I can't ever recall the Grand Champion, receiving that honor either.
 
Northern Rancher said:
Guess I'm just a Curious George-the bull I mentioned is from a breed I don't even use but I found the disparity interesting. The whole information deal would become a lot more economically stimulating if individual carcass data was available to every player in the game. We've sold on the grid for years and the difference in value between the best and the worst is really amazing. Carcass data is down the list in bull selection but it's on the list but more so the bulls individual data rather than epd's. For instance is a bull has a bunch of BF he better have a high marbling score too. I put up a carcass trophy for the district 4H show for years till we could know longer get individual carcass data on the steers. Only ONCE did the Grand Champion hang the best carcass-Once it hung the worst-most of the time it was just kind of in the middle. Some of you selling calves are leaving money on the table while some are robbing the house-until individual ID allows data to be shared industry wide we really can't be sure.
Click to expand...

I agree about the carcass data for sure. We got ours for the first time this year and it was interesting. I guess it told me what we already knew.... that they were damn good cattle :wink: but it was nice to see it confirmed on paper. Even got a little bonus cheque for being above the line.
When I was in 4H getting carcass data back was my favorite part, maybe 'cause I never got looked at for grande champion in the ring. When you're showing blonde or blonde cross calves it's hard to get the nod from dyed in the wool angus types. But I do have a grand champion carcass trophy or two to make me feel better. In fact I believe my one steers ribeye measurement of 19 3/4 still stands :D
I guess it's good that there is folks breeding for some of these epd's, I suppose it will be good for beef in general, but I still think that good cattlemen will raise good cattle without them.
 
As a sometimes county fair judge, I will say that I really hate it when the animals are harvested after the show with carcass data collected. Oh, don't get me wrong, I am totally on board with the importance of the carcass and the value differential that results from the grading. But the winner of the carcass part of the deal is usually not the champion from the live show. So, you end up with some smug parents that think the show judge was all wet and didn't do the job. A guy just has to take it in stride and walk away with the knowledge that it's just darn tough to judge carcasses when they're still wearing the hide. Now, if the champion live animal has the smallest ribeye of the whole bunch, well, you've got yourself some 'splaining to do :!: :shock:

HP
 
I've seen a few judges have some splainin' to do. The one time the grand champ had the worst carcass-the judge put him first because of the breed character in his head-my kids are in 4H more for the friendships and public speaking etc they learned a long time ago not to get too upset about a judges opinion. I know it's pretty much impossible to judge accurately whats under the hide but a lot of judges sure pretend they can
 
I am all for improving carcass traits but unless things change for the better I am a lot more interested in improving cow efficiency. The packer buyers we deal with are so stingy with carcass premiums that it is fruitless at this point. Now with Select selling nearly equal to choice I don't even want to look at a grid.
 
DNA is another one of many tools that we can't ignore, but must also use with some common sense.

We DNA tested all of our sale bulls this year but got the results back too late for sale day. I have been linear measuring, ultrasound measuring and now DNA measuring our bulls and feel that these numbers need to stay with the breeder. Too many customers use these things to cut up bulls and like you folks are saying --- accuracy is a problem.

One of our bulls had amazing carcass data and scored a ten out of ten for tenderness. ( and he was not the only one). However his DNA marker for rib eye was well below average. This same bull scored the highest of all the bulls for weight adjusted rib eye area when his ultrasound measurements came back.

Had some other bulls with numbers out of wack as well. I feel that a good cattleman's eye is as useful as anything but will continue to use the tools of the day to improves my stock.
 
Cargill and JBS both have grids that are available to everyone with a minimum Choice/Select spread of $8.00 per cwt. So, a Choice carcass weighing 850 lbs. is worth $30 more than Select, no matter what the true spread is on the boxed product. Not big money, but makes it very workable as long as you don't have yield grade or other issues. That would be $30 per head and then add on top your Age/Source money, often $20 to as high as $45/head. Now you're getting somewhere.

Better yet, make that carcass a CAB and then you add $34 to $42 per head again, depending on the packer. $30 + $20 + $34 = $84.00 / head

Works good on the right cattle. There again, that's not considering YG 4 discounts. So, using the U.S. national average for yield grade 4 percentage (10%) you take one of the smallest discounts that's out there for yield grade 4's (-$5/cwt.) and multiply by 10%, you get minus $4.25 per head across the whole pen. Still looking at about $80 to the good. But you have to figure a discount for the selects, so if you've got 80% Choice cattle (realistic and a good figure), then you've got 20% of the $8 spread as an average discount. Result is minus $13.60/hd. across the pen. Then, a realistic percentage for CAB is 25% of the pen qualified (on Angus cattle), so that cuts you back to $8.50/hd. premium there, average. Grand total is plus $44.90 per head averaged on the pen of fairly decent, but not tremendous Angus-based cattle. That's without any premiums included for yield grade 1's and 2's or a nominal number of Prime. Keeping it simple.

Now, you don't have to sell on the grid to get the age/source premium, so don't let me fool you there.

HP
 

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