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Eliminating costs is always better than reducing costs

Ben H

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
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Location
Gorham, ME
Kit Pharo put this up on his website, mentioning it in the most recent PCC Quickie, it's from the September issue of Stockman Grass Farmer

http://www.pharocattle.com/extrastuff/Spf99_Eliminating_costs.pdf

Grassroots of Grazing: Eliminating costs is always better than reducing costs
by Jim Gerrish
Last month we reviewed how continually rising costs force us to keep our management strategies
always one step ahead of the next price increase. Fuel and fertilizer costs are a couple of the
biggest culprits in the current cost-price squeeze. It seems to me we give too much attention to
reducing costs and not nearly enough to eliminating costs. If you just reduce costs, you still have
to wrestle with the same beast every time that particular item makes another price leap.
Most of you know both SGF and Jim Gerrish devote a lot of time and energy towards the goal of
making and feeding no hay. This is a prime example of eliminating a cost rather than just
reducing it. If hay is no longer a necessary ingredient in your livestock operation, it is a cost you
don't have to manage anymore. If, on the other hand, you just reduce hay feeding from 120 days
to 45 days, it is still a cost you must contend with.
I've seen a lot of producers who were very proud of the fact they had trimmed their hay feeding
way back from what it used to be. But did they sell their equipment? No, they still have it and
rather than making 500 tons of hay a year, they only make 150 tons. A lot less operating cost
generated every year, but no real reduction in the overhead cost of owning equipment. The cost
per ton of hay is now likely to be even higher than it was before. If the equipment had been sold,
the overhead cost would also have been eliminated and the income from equipment sales could
have likely financed much of the fence and water infrastructure development.
Another downside of keeping the equipment is you can easily be tempted to start making hay at
the drop of a hat. Got a little extra grass this year? Bale it up. Made some extra hay last year?
Let's feed a little longer. Pretty soon you're right back in the same rut. Enslaved by the hay
paradigm.
What did Agamemnon, King of the Greeks, do on the shores of Troy? What did Hernan Cortes
do on the shores of Mexico? They burned their ships so there would be no going back. If they
had been really serious businessmen, they would have sold their boats to some other conqueror
and used the income to finance their further adventures. The moral here is don't just burn your
equipment, market it in an effective manner.
There are some regions where year-around grazing is very easy, while there are other areas where
even I'll admit it to be a much greater challenge. In those areas you might be faced with the
question of making the hay you need or buying it. If hay can be bought routinely for under
$60/ton, it's hardly even worth discussing the options. At today's N-P-K prices, a ton of hay
contains almost $60 worth of fertilizer without even considering the calcium, magnesium, sulfur,
iron, zinc, and other trace minerals as well as the roughly 800 lb of organic matter that will get
excreted on your property. At $60/ton, you're either getting the hay or the fertilizer for free. Take
your pick.
If hay is costing between $60-100/ton, you're still ahead to buy hay as the latest university
figures suggest just the operating cost to harvest a ton of hay to be between $35-40. Lots of
farmers who insist on putting up their own hay use the argument they can do a better job of
'putting it up right'. If you do it yourself, you may be spending that $40 to put up rained on, over
mature garbage. Buy the hay and you actually have better control over quality.
In some parts of the US and Canada, the cost of buying hay is two to three times what it was just
a couple of years ago. Currently in our neighborhood, hay right out of the field is selling for
$140-180/ton. In areas where hay costs this much, I have a little bit harder time making the
argument to buy your hay. It makes the argument for eliminating hay a lot more convincing,
though.
Last month I used nitrogen fertilizer as an example of another input cost that may have priced
itself right out of practicality. Some farmers and ranchers wonder how they can ever get the
production they need without using N fertilizer. Many of you who have heard me speak at
conferences already know there were only three times we ever used N-fertilizer in the 23 years
we were on our grass farm in Missouri. Did we have low producing, thin pastures? No, we ran
twice the county average stocking rate. We ran on legumes and an effective nutrient cycle. Yes
we limed some pastures and used phosphorus, potash, sulfur, and boron when needed. Last
month we talked about those nutrients as being long term investments in contrast to the very
ephemeral nature of N fertilizer.
We can talk all we want about cost reduction, but the real step forward comes when we embrace
cost elimination. I don't believe Mother Nature worries too much about what the banker thinks
she should do. One more reason to look to Mother for an example.
 
Well, Kit has made some interesting points, but what may work for his (and others) operations will not work for everyone. The same can be said of what breed of cattle works for one rancher wouldn't be a good match for another rancher's operation. Sooner or later mother nature is going to dump a blizzard on your operation. That stockpiled feed comes in pretty darn handy during a time like that. Also, finding hay to buy and get it delivered in a timely fashion during such an event is a problem in it's self.

In my area, custom hay operators are charging $25-35 per ton. Here we enter the age old question of 'How much do you have in your hay'? Well, hay is selling for $100/ton but it only cost me $30/ton to harvest it.....but I could sell it for a $100/ton. :? Hay from your own operation is a known quality and quantity.

I can't help but wonder if he is going to eliminate his mineral feeding (I'm assuming he does feed mineral). After all mother nature has provided rocks and bones of dead animals for cows to lick & consume. I'm sure we've all seen cows chewing on bones, to get the minerals out of it.

Sorry for a long post.
 
Yep, Kit's philosophies don'twork everywhere. He does claim to be the most opinionated rancher in America, but that is an arguable point. :D
 
I think the philosophy behind his philosophies work everywhere. The logistics are different in all cases. He is trying, sometimes in vain, to get people to think outside of the box.
 
The biggest trouble with Kit's philosophy is he has never had to pay for land on feeder calf prices. I run half again more cows than I could if I didn't hay them for 4 months and my land payment, taxes and rent is still $200 per head.
 
What Kit is saying is that if you don't HAVE to feed hay Don't feed hay. DUH! Does anyone feed hay just for fun? Exercise? Because the calf check was so amazingly high ya need to spend a bunch before the wife does? And he's saying don't fertilize at all unless ya have to? :???: Why else would ya? He makes a lot of sense but some times he sure is Mr. Obvious. If you don't have winter range, live in a cold climate and would like to actually continue to be in the cattle buisness it's my humble opinion ya might want to feed hay. And here's a news flash. If your yield is way down on your crops, your soil is poor and your enjoy seeing seeds grow taller than the belly of a blow snake try improving your soil with fertilizer! I need my own website and should teach this stuff to folks in seminars! :wink:
 
leanin' H said:
What Kit is saying is that if you don't HAVE to feed hay Don't feed hay. DUH! Does anyone feed hay just for fun? Exercise? Because the calf check was so amazingly high ya need to spend a bunch before the wife does? And he's saying don't fertilize at all unless ya have to? :???: Why else would ya? He makes a lot of sense but some times he sure is Mr. Obvious. If you don't have winter range, live in a cold climate and would like to actually continue to be in the cattle buisness it's my humble opinion ya might want to feed hay. And here's a news flash. If your yield is way down on your crops, your soil is poor and your enjoy seeing seeds grow taller than the belly of a blow snake try improving your soil with fertilizer! I need my own website and should teach this stuff to folks in seminars! :wink:

Dick Diven is another "GURU" and he was up in this north country preaching survival of the fittest.
 
When I attended the "Ranching for Profit" seminar a few years back, Dave Pratt challenged us to think outside the box and consider the possibility of grazing year round, buy some hay to keep on hand in case of a bad stretch of weather, selling our haying equipment and actually ranch for profit and not just in years when the price of calves were good but every year. Think about it, I know it's hard but seriously think about not buying fuel, repairs, updating equipment, insurance, labor, hell there's probably 20 other expenses if you really thought about it but you get my point.

Matching the cows requirements to the growing season, that is summer calving, is another step in the process. Cow size was never brought up in our discussion, but if your cows are taking care of themselves they better not be too big.

Cross fencing and water developement to promote diverse species of native grass is a must and probably a first step. Rest and regrowth of the range is what the buffalo did for centuries and the reason the prairie was so good when the settlers first came to the Great Plains. Barbed wire was the culprit for the decline of the native range because the grass never got enough rest and regrowth because the livestock couldn't migrate like the wildlife used to.

For those of you still with me, the others thought I was nuts after about the second paragraph, tell me the downside to this train of thought. I don't know what percent of your herd you would need to downsize to match your grazing capacity to your numbers. I'm sure there are some out there that are doing this already, is there a ballpark figure to the extent you would need to reduce your herd? Another point that Pratt emphasized was in the case of drought, be proactive and not reactive. That is have a date in mind that if you don't get rain, start destocking right away and never, never try to feed your way out of a drought.

As the price of inputs keeps skyrocketing and the price of calves keeps going down, this type of approach gets more attractive all the time. There are some ranches that have been doing OK for a few years because of the good calf prices, but recent events have put a dark cloud over the whole ranching community, no matter where you live.

Now I know this is radical thinking for most of you because tradition tells us to put up hay all summer and feed it all winter. I myself am about 3/4 of the way through this process, but I can't or should I say haven't sold all my haying equipment yet. Yes, there would be less calves to sell, but with little expense I know we could be more profitable. And before you say it can't be done it is being done not too far from your place, I guarantee it.

I look forward to your comments.
 
Swede I hear you. We now use our breeding pastures once every three years. Quite the change in grass growth. Some of the ranch is used every year but only dormant season and some rotated so not used every spring if possible. I have winter grazed my cow with only supplement protein"BUT" not able to every winter which can be expected in this area.
Would love to have a haying free summer. :lol:
 
Big Swede said:
When I attended the "Ranching for Profit" seminar a few years back, Dave Pratt challenged us to think outside the box and consider the possibility of grazing year round, buy some hay to keep on hand in case of a bad stretch of weather, selling our haying equipment and actually ranch for profit and not just in years when the price of calves were good but every year. Think about it, I know it's hard but seriously think about not buying fuel, repairs, updating equipment, insurance, labor, hell there's probably 20 other expenses if you really thought about it but you get my point.

Matching the cows requirements to the growing season, that is summer calving, is another step in the process. Cow size was never brought up in our discussion, but if your cows are taking care of themselves they better not be too big.

Cross fencing and water developement to promote diverse species of native grass is a must and probably a first step. Rest and regrowth of the range is what the buffalo did for centuries and the reason the prairie was so good when the settlers first came to the Great Plains. Barbed wire was the culprit for the decline of the native range because the grass never got enough rest and regrowth because the livestock couldn't migrate like the wildlife used to.

For those of you still with me, the others thought I was nuts after about the second paragraph, tell me the downside to this train of thought. I don't know what percent of your herd you would need to downsize to match your grazing capacity to your numbers. I'm sure there are some out there that are doing this already, is there a ballpark figure to the extent you would need to reduce your herd? Another point that Pratt emphasized was in the case of drought, be proactive and not reactive. That is have a date in mind that if you don't get rain, start destocking right away and never, never try to feed your way out of a drought.

As the price of inputs keeps skyrocketing and the price of calves keeps going down, this type of approach gets more attractive all the time. There are some ranches that have been doing OK for a few years because of the good calf prices, but recent events have put a dark cloud over the whole ranching community, no matter where you live.

Now I know this is radical thinking for most of you because tradition tells us to put up hay all summer and feed it all winter. I myself am about 3/4 of the way through this process, but I can't or should I say haven't sold all my haying equipment yet. Yes, there would be less calves to sell, but with little expense I know we could be more profitable. And before you say it can't be done it is being done not too far from your place, I guarantee it.

I look forward to your comments.

When I was in high school back in the late 1960's, I wrote a letter to my great uncle, Leigh Fairhead, who was born in 1894, requesting that he send me some area history as he remembered it. Here are some portions of his reply:

"As I arrived at the ranch east of Merriman the Spring of 1896 as a two-year-old, I remember the trip moving with four wagons with household possessions and a couple or three cowboys following with the cattle. The Sandhills were very sparsely grassed with many blowouts as the country was open range and prairie fires were numerous in early days possibly causing this condition. This was also the end of the buffalo or bison. I remember one lone buffalo bull; Dad couldn't keep him out of our meadows. The cranky buffalo would charge the saddle horses. Buffalo horns were numerous in all the draws in the Sandhills. One could pick them up by the bushel baskets.

"The meadows were not the same as today as they were weedy and swampy, diamond willows were everywhere, and the buffalo had tramped the lowlands until they were a continuous bog. Often times hummocks would be twelve inches high and required many hours of work to prepare the land for hay. All the early hay was cut with scythes or four-foot swath McCormick mowers. Hay was picked up after the hay rake with a pitch fork and moved to the stack on a wagon. Later on buckboards were used. The old buck was about 14 or 16 feet wide and about five feet in height. With a team of horses on each side, this buck would slide in two or three sweep loads. Then planks were laid on the sweep bunches so more hay could be slid up the planks to make the stacks taller. Later, stackers were invented."

Anyway, my thougts are that with the invention of barbed wire, ranchers were more able to manage their ranges to turn the Sandhills into the great grazing land that it is today. I'll bet those old-timers sure didn't have any need for fancy exercise equipment to keep them in top physical condition. :wink:
 
Big Swede said:
When I attended the "Ranching for Profit" seminar a few years back, Dave Pratt challenged us to think outside the box and consider the possibility of grazing year round, buy some hay to keep on hand in case of a bad stretch of weather, selling our haying equipment and actually ranch for profit and not just in years when the price of calves were good but every year. Think about it, I know it's hard but seriously think about not buying fuel, repairs, updating equipment, insurance, labor, hell there's probably 20 other expenses if you really thought about it but you get my point.

Matching the cows requirements to the growing season, that is summer calving, is another step in the process. Cow size was never brought up in our discussion, but if your cows are taking care of themselves they better not be too big.

Cross fencing and water developement to promote diverse species of native grass is a must and probably a first step. Rest and regrowth of the range is what the buffalo did for centuries and the reason the prairie was so good when the settlers first came to the Great Plains. Barbed wire was the culprit for the decline of the native range because the grass never got enough rest and regrowth because the livestock couldn't migrate like the wildlife used to.

For those of you still with me, the others thought I was nuts after about the second paragraph, tell me the downside to this train of thought. I don't know what percent of your herd you would need to downsize to match your grazing capacity to your numbers. I'm sure there are some out there that are doing this already, is there a ballpark figure to the extent you would need to reduce your herd? Another point that Pratt emphasized was in the case of drought, be proactive and not reactive. That is have a date in mind that if you don't get rain, start destocking right away and never, never try to feed your way out of a drought.

As the price of inputs keeps skyrocketing and the price of calves keeps going down, this type of approach gets more attractive all the time. There are some ranches that have been doing OK for a few years because of the good calf prices, but recent events have put a dark cloud over the whole ranching community, no matter where you live.

Now I know this is radical thinking for most of you because tradition tells us to put up hay all summer and feed it all winter. I myself am about 3/4 of the way through this process, but I can't or should I say haven't sold all my haying equipment yet. Yes, there would be less calves to sell, but with little expense I know we could be more profitable. And before you say it can't be done it is being done not too far from your place, I guarantee it.

I look forward to your comments.

Swede, your not nuts at all. Although ranching is a way of life for most people, it is also a business. Production agriculture is steeped in deep tradition and change can be hard. But for those with the ability to critically analyze what they are doing and why they are doing it rewards may be good.

I remember the conversioin over to no till farming on our place. It took awhile to prove it would work and now, no way would anyone go back to the farming practices we did 20 years ago.

We need to keep in mind that there is no one size fits all production system that works for everyone in the country. Every ranch is different with different capital and labor resources and requirements. Kit Pharo's ideas wont necessarily work for everyone, but I think if his message gets some to critically think and analyze what they are doing and why, it is good for the industry. Many people could implement part of what he is saying and be more profitable.

I wish I could get by without feeding hay but the winters of 96 to 98 are still pretty fresh on my mind. Well over 110 inches of snow and you better have some feed around for the cows unless your willing to haul cows out of the country. For us, having the ability to utilize crop residues enalbes us to graze until the snow gets too deep wether that is Nov 1 or march 1.

Brian
 
Swede, your model works for me. We have been able to reduce mechanical feeding to 45 days in the spring. Yes there might be those years where all goes south and I do keep bales on hand for that occasion. Last winter and spring we fed our 2,3 and 4 year old bales to freshen up the stack yard. Kind of reminded me why we went to a grazing all year system. As far as nutrients and stocking and net profit go, the new system hurt my gross income but had a very positive effect on my net income. It takes a paradigm shift that if you are not ready for, don't try this at home.
 
I have read enough South Dakota history to know that the winter of 1888 when most of the cattle perished that had been brought in from Texas and wintered in the Northern Plains was the point when people realized that a winter feed supply would help their cattle get through northern winters. There were also some tough winters later on in the 1800's and early 1900's that reinforced that idea. 1985 comes to mind for me as one that covered us up the first of November and didn't go away till the middle of March. Don't get me wrong, I still feed hay, not as much as I used to but I isn't it tempting to think that maybe we wouldn't have too?

As far as the barbed wire thing Soapweed, the Sand Hills are maybe the only ecosystem that if the buffalo stayed too long may have had a negative impact on. The loose sand and meadows would be heavily impacted if thousands of head would not move on, although I'm not sure why they wouldn't. I know the brush country of Texas was not always the brush country. Management with fence only works if it is managed to let the grass recover and not be clipped off time after time and year after year. Cheat grass and other weeds were never part of the native range until fences showed up around the turn of the century.

My pastures are full of undesireable plants that don't produce as much as native grass but over time I'm sure the natives will take over again. Stan Parson's book about range management told about the decline about the African plains. Back in the day when the herds migrated at will the grass was incredible, as high as an elephants eye, but as fences were installed to build preserves their movement was stopped. Overgrazing soon happened so they figured that had too many animals so they destocked with no positive results so they destocked some more. Today the grass is gone in a lot of areas only to be replaced with weeds and brush. Sound familiar? That's where he learned about the benefits of rotational grazing that he brought back to the United States. That is where the reference to buffalo came from.

Anyway, I don't claim to have all the answers but it is interesting to look back at history to learn some of them.
 
If you ran cows without feed in this area the cows would get seized and you would end up in jail. Beside's that they would starve to death digging thru 3 ft of snow for a mouthful of 5% protein straw.I believe in making the cows work and hustle for their food when they can but there is a line you can't cross.We rent 9 different places and own 3 others scattered all over our area if you showed up with cows to graze in january you'd get run off and loose your lease.I swear some of these guy's are a bit off plumb.Sell your haying equipment,yeah right.

I figure I took on these cattle as my resposibility and I will do the best I can with what I have.I need to be at peace with myself at the end of the day nothing else much matter's.
 
I don't recall anyone saying that the cows are run without feed or only have access to low protein straw. That is the trick of winter grazing, make sure there is something of value to go after. No skinny cows on my place, just a different way of doing things. And yes by your plumb line some of us are way off. Good thing we aren't measured by your plumb line then.
 
Well Denny, that's the same exact reason we spent plenty of good money on feeding alfalfa to our older and younger cows last winter. The bitter cold simply couldn't justify not feeding them. I can tell you, it always makes me feel good to see cows gathered around freshly fed hay getting their bellies full. Comforting sight.
 
Denny, that is the part of the thinking outside the box thing that most people don't grasp, and I know it is tough because I have been thinking about it for 10 years and still don't have it grasped. You can't do everything the same as you do now and expect there be something out there to eat in the winter time. Stockpiling forage for winter use is similar to feeding hay except you don't have to start a tractor to feed your cows.

I was visiting with a neighbor the other day who said he bought some cows out of Wyoming back in the 70's that would not come to hay. They would walk through the snow to break the crust and then walk back through their trail to graze. They also wouldn't drink from a tank if there was snow to eat. By spring he said he had ruined them and they would eat and drink with the rest of his cows.
 
I've been in a situation where the cattle grazed out all winter.
We were worried that if a spring storm came, we would lose some.
This was not a ranch we owned, but ran for a time in 1973-1974.
One of the WORST things was where the cattle didn't have access
to water and they had to rely on snow.

There was a good cowboy/cowman that grew up in that country and he
told us to watch for cows/yearlings whose tail was getting flat and looking
like it was splitting down the middle as
those cattle 'wouldn't be doing good.' We looked and we found them, and
all of them did not have access to water, but were relying solely on snow.
Their hair was dry and dead looking. This was in Wyoming.
These cattle were running in rough native pasture with no hay or cake.

I never forgot that time. We didn't stay any longer than we had to.

I remember Soapweed saying on this forum several years ago, something about "if I can't run them in good shape, so that I'm proud
to own them, then I won't have cattle" or something to that effect.
I applaud him for that statement.

Everyone can do what works best for them.
(Geez, we've had this conversation many times) and if you are seeking another way because your way isn't working, then what you choose to do is up to you.

I know that it is easy to get a lot into a cow, but I've seen the results of not feeding too. I know a rancher who is in this program (Grass Stockman type) and he didn't wean his calves off the cows until March and
they were turned out with no supplemental feed.

It didn't work. Caught up with him at calving time.

And the last I knew, Kit Pharo doesn't feed mineral.

He also doesn't hire an auctioneer, doesn't provide dinner nor does he provide transportation home for the bulls you buy. (At one time, even if
they hauled several bulls to a drop off point, you paid the fare and
still had to drive to pick them up.)

Yes. He is a low-cost producer. :wink:
 
Don't see anything wrong with extending the grazing season and keeping the haying eqipment. Old dogs are slow to learn new tricks :wink: A baler will last for years if not used and stored in a shed and your gonna keep the loader tractor so when you get 3 feet of snow you can still get to town for coffee to brag about how well the cows are doing :lol: :lol: By the way hay here is not cheap not easy to find and very exspensive to haul and is off short supply all through the province of Manitoba. I know in an ideal world you would want your farm or ranch to be completely self supportive in that all your imputs would be on your own land. BUT if you are selling beef are you not going to have a net decrease in nutriants over time and these have to be replaced one way or another?
 

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