The Char Association here has a test program for bulls and many of the breeders use it. Especially before ultrasound was accepted as a means for computing EPD's. We work with the commercial guys all the time.

And I understand totally how EPD's are to used. They are nothing more than another base for developing a judgement. Not and END-ALL to the GUESSWORK in the system.

My main point is that the commercial guy who doesn't use EPD's is not using a world of collected data that is available to him. And to say that they are not accurate just because they have some unsubstantiated rumors/claims that some breeders cheat is pretty ignorant in my opinion.

A few years ago I enrolled a bull in a Conception to Consumer  progam, where 50 cows were randomly cut selected and bred to 3 different bulls. The EPD numbers on these bulls were dead inline with the BW's, WW's, YW's, and carcass data. I admit, I had been a little skeptical of EPD's before that experiment but have seen firsthand how close they really are to actual measurements.

It's a hell of a slap in the face to go through all the trouble to weigh newborns through the system, gather all the data expected and have someone tell me that EPD's aren't to be used because they have heard a rumor somebody cheated on the data. 

By all means use Phenotypic Selection methods! No one is arguing that.

But when you are done looking there is actual data available to help back up your choice.