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Just A Thought

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Northern Rancher

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The cow run is really on right now were seeing close to a 1,000 a week at our local yard. After sorting them and trudging up and down alleys all week after them I had this thought. Is there any reason in this day and age to still be perpetuating genetics for bad feet,terrible udders and crack whore dispositions-from the amoount of sorry cattle a guy sees somebody is obviously still breeding them. It would be interesting if for ten years every rancher closed his herd and raised his own bulls. I know I sure wouldn't be keeping bulls from a club footed swing bag who would just as soon eat you as hay. Not all pb breeders are selling those kind of cattle but there are alot that still are. There's a certain black bull that the A'I industry embraced that should of had his nuts tossed to a blue heeler as a calf but every breed has them I'm sure.
 
Northern Rancher said:
The cow run is really on right now were seeing close to a 1,000 a week at our local yard. After sorting them and trudging up and down alleys all week after them I had this thought. Is there any reason in this day and age to still be perpetuating genetics for bad feet,terrible udders and crack whore dispositions-from the amoount of sorry cattle a guy sees somebody is obviously still breeding them. It would be interesting if for ten years every rancher closed his herd and raised his own bulls. I know I sure wouldn't be keeping bulls from a club footed swing bag who would just as soon eat you as hay. Not all pb breeders are selling those kind of cattle but there are alot that still are. There's a certain black bull that the A'I industry embraced that should of had his nuts tossed to a blue heeler as a calf but every breed has them I'm sure.
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Tough day NR? here, I'll buy you a drink :drink:
 
No I actually had a day off today but it amazes me the crap that is still out there. Really getting an appreciation for how much bad temperment causes the industry-three or four of us sort 2000-2500 calves in one day-nobody has time to filter the s...t anymore. Like I said it just amazes me the amount of unsound cattle of all breeds that a guy sees. Believe me I'm finding out where they buy their bulls from-conversely a neighbor who used to have a pretty mixed bag of tricks brought in one of the best sets of calves this fall. I found out where those genetics come from too.
 
Northern Rancher said:
No I actually had a day off today but it amazes me the crap that is still out there. Really getting an appreciation for how much bad temperment causes the industry-three or four of us sort 2000-2500 calves in one day-nobody has time to filter the s...t anymore. Like I said it just amazes me the amount of unsound cattle of all breeds that a guy sees. Believe me I'm finding out where they buy their bulls from-conversely a neighbor who used to have a pretty mixed bag of tricks brought in one of the best sets of calves this fall. I found out where those genetics come from too.
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True, but no matter what you'll always have the guys that buy those gummers and old hides, buy $900.00 bulls, calve all year 'round, feed moldy hay, and then wonder why they don't get anywhere in the cattle business! :???:
 
A lot of low-end commercial guys just use their neighbours bull, who bought it 2nd hand from a commercial fella that raised it from a "real good" hybrid cow. It is these low-end guys that I would like to see exit the industry in numbers in the next year or two. They neither support purebred breeders by purchasing occasional breeding stock, nor have the interest or drive to raise quality cattle.

I'll also agree that their is a lot of purebred bulls that should not have nuts. At least they bring some uniformity to their calf crops though.
 
Aaron said:
A lot of low-end commercial guys just use their neighbours bull, who bought it 2nd hand from a commercial fella that raised it from a "real good" hybrid cow. It is these low-end guys that I would like to see exit the industry in numbers in the next year or two. They neither support purebred breeders by purchasing occasional breeding stock, nor have the interest or drive to raise quality cattle.

I'll also agree that their is a lot of purebred bulls that should not have nuts. At least they bring some uniformity to their calf crops though.
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I would like to comment on a couple of your points.

Every herd has it's own top 10%, if you can raise a bull from your top cow and put those genetics into your herd you are improving. It is up to the operator what those improvements are and the market to let him know if it was a profitable decision.
As far as support goes, I would like to see the purebred breeders support US, the commercial guys that buy the overstuffed progeny of big titted swing-bagged, bad footed, old pets that are more of a hobby or tax write-off than anything else and hope they can live in a real bovine's environment.
If I'm going to buy bulls from a breeder he is going to have enough cows that the problems are dealt with at the kill plant, not the squeeze chute! AND he is also going to be a cowman that I can respect.
There are a lot of bulls out there that have papers that produce far poorer cattle than "homespun" bulls produced by a good cowman.
No, I don't raise any bulls for sale but I have raised a bunch that I used in my own herd that left a lot of good genetics behind.
 
Aaron said:
A lot of low-end commercial guys just use their neighbours bull, who bought it 2nd hand from a commercial fella that raised it from a "real good" hybrid cow. It is these low-end guys that I would like to see exit the industry in numbers in the next year or two. They neither support purebred breeders by purchasing occasional breeding stock, nor have the interest or drive to raise quality cattle.

I'll also agree that their is a lot of purebred bulls that should not have nuts. At least they bring some uniformity to their calf crops though.
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I here you on the no good bull deal.I have a pasture next to a dairy cross beef herd.They have a bull that by all acconts is a breeding machine I've got a calf out of him the last 2 years.They say he's a shorthorn but each calf out of registered angus cows has been gray with 2 white back feet and as fine boned as they come.This summer they called in a panic that my bull had gotten into their cows I told them that would be the best thing that could happen but I went to get him and it turned out it was'nt my bull but their cousins.I told them I would trade them a yearling black bull straight across for the old off breed bull but they turned me down.If they still have him next year and he come's a calling he may end up a steer or lame by lead.
 
Gee Aaron I did have to wave the cast iron skillet at the hubby, he finally listened and stopped buying bulls from his cousin.
I know just what you are talking about. In the last 14 years I watched a really nice herd of moderate framed, easy keeping, good calving herefords go to pot. All because the hubby went to the cousins and listened to him. :mad:
You saw the new bull from a good breeder and hopefully we are now back on the right track and I don't have to dust off the skillet. :wink:
 
gcreekrch said:
Aaron said:
A lot of low-end commercial guys just use their neighbours bull, who bought it 2nd hand from a commercial fella that raised it from a "real good" hybrid cow. It is these low-end guys that I would like to see exit the industry in numbers in the next year or two. They neither support purebred breeders by purchasing occasional breeding stock, nor have the interest or drive to raise quality cattle.

I'll also agree that their is a lot of purebred bulls that should not have nuts. At least they bring some uniformity to their calf crops though.
Click to expand...

I would like to comment on a couple of your points.

Every herd has it's own top 10%, if you can raise a bull from your top cow and put those genetics into your herd you are improving. It is up to the operator what those improvements are and the market to let him know if it was a profitable decision.

I am not referring to you, gcreek...I have faith in your ability to pick quality crossbred bulls for breeding from your own herd. I am referring to the guys who buy replacements in the form of bred culls, keep the best bull calf off of them...keep the daughters off that bull and then keep the best bull calf off of those daughters for breeding..essentially inbreeding the entire herd pretty quickly. Believe me, I know guys that do this. And that, "best bull calf" doesn't wean off at 600+ lbs. ....maybe..400 lbs. Again...people do this.

As far as support goes, I would like to see the purebred breeders support US, the commercial guys that buy the overstuffed progeny of big titted swing-bagged, bad footed, old pets that are more of a hobby or tax write-off than anything else and hope they can live in a real bovine's environment.


I suggest you don't buy bulls from these breeders. I wouldn't. Although it is the hobby guys that support these outfits...not you or I.


If I'm going to buy bulls from a breeder he is going to have enough cows that the problems are dealt with at the kill plant, not the squeeze chute! AND he is also going to be a cowman that I can respect.

Same here..no argument

There are a lot of bulls out there that have papers that produce far poorer cattle than "homespun" bulls produced by a good cowman.
No, I don't raise any bulls for sale but I have raised a bunch that I used in my own herd that left a lot of good genetics behind.

Again...the key is a good cowman...that's not everyone. I would like to see those that aren't, leave the industry.
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I Luv Herfrds said:
Gee Aaron I did have to wave the cast iron skillet at the hubby, he finally listened and stopped buying bulls from his cousin.
I know just what you are talking about. In the last 14 years I watched a really nice herd of moderate framed, easy keeping, good calving herefords go to pot. All because the hubby went to the cousins and listened to him. :mad:
You saw the new bull from a good breeder and hopefully we are now back on the right track and I don't have to dust off the skillet. :wink:
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Cousin must have been a good salesman. :lol:

I am sure you'll be back on track and enjoy your calves even more in the coming years.

I travel a fair bit and talk to a lot of producers. Can tell you that the happiest and most optimistic producers are those that care and invest in their cattle herds. The negative, depressing, shoot-me-while-I-am-still-ahead producers are those that cut corners in their herds to save a buck and end up having lousy cattle. Few things lift a producer's spirit like seeing a pen or pasture of quality cattle that have been looked after and bred for.
 
gcreetch now were kind of agreeing on cattle what is the world coming too. I agree there's alot of purebred buuls will give you uniformity but cattle can be uniformly bad as well as good. What I am saying is that most good commercial outfits could keep straightbred or crossbred bulls from their own cows and not go too far back. The way the cattle business is going there's going to be a bloodletting among the johny dull knives of the purebred business. The truly sharp commercial men no longer stand in awe of registration papers and good clip jobs-cattle today better get to work making you money and better be trouble free as they do it. What I was getting is that somebody is perpetuating the genetics that we deal with every week.
 
My new neighbors ( the guys with the horse and buggys) are from your area Aaron. They have spent the last two years buying up every old 3 titted swing bagged nut case cow in the area. Is that the way they opperated in your country :???: Bet you can't guess whos pasture they end up in when they fly off the handle :roll:
 
Every rancher has some less-than-desirable cows that need to go to town. When we preg check in the fall, any bred cows that I don't want to keep in my own herd, I also don't want anyone else to have them in their herd. We put a "P" on their hip and don't give them any of the shots we give our keeping herd, and we don't give them any pour-on. I take these cows to a weigh-up sale, and I hope they go to slaughter. If for some reason someone buys them to keep to raise a calf, my conscience is clear and they buy the animal at their own risk.

What is disgusting is when someone takes these cull cows with bad bags, bad dispostions, or other less-than-desirable characteristics and sells them as a premium product through an advertised bred cow sale. I am not talking about cows just culled for age. There is a market for these older cows that have stood the test of time. They will have good calves again in the spring, but they do need extra feed and care over the winter. But any reject sour old cow should be sold by the pound and not by the head. :wink: End of rant. :)
 
We are now in a time where even average genetics and especially poor ones just don't cut it. The commercial cowman is getting paid more now than ever before on quality and not just pounds alone anymore. As far as bad feet and bad bags. Their shouldn't be any, but their are and some breeds are worse than others. The problem is most guys AI to a bull because he has good numbers and takes a great picture, and they really don't know much about him. Their are some very popular bulls being used AI right now that don't have good feet, but they are being used extremely hard. NOT IN MY PROGRAM I must add.

Plus yearling bulls are ussually pushed harder and feet can go bad from this. We all need to figure out a happy medium to solve this problem, so we can see what their genetics can do, but not to much to hurt the bull.

Commercial breeders should buy their genetics from breeders they can trust and know they are really working for them.
 
I was at a friends branding last spring and he was complaining about all of their bad uddered cows, and there were plenty of them. He is almost 50 years old but his Dad is still the boss (problem #1) and he was still taking orders. I asked him why they didn't cull all those cows and he said his Dad would tell him and his brother to just get them in and help the calf get started (problem #2). Well, they raise their own replacements and the problem perpetuates itself (problem #3).

When he was at my branding he couldn't believe the udders on my cows and I just told him you just need to cull hard and keep heifers from good uddered cows and he just kinda shook his head.

Disposition is the same way. One of the problems I have is feet. Dry cracks that are not really foot rot but causes problems just like foot rot. Hopefully I will get rid of this problem in my herd but it seems like I have a handfull every fall that are lame from this problem.

The culling continues.
 
Soapweed said:
Every rancher has some less-than-desirable cows that need to go to town. When we preg check in the fall, any bred cows that I don't want to keep in my own herd, I also don't want anyone else to have them in their herd. We put a "P" on their hip and don't give them any of the shots we give our keeping herd, and we don't give them any pour-on. I take these cows to a weigh-up sale, and I hope they go to slaughter. If for some reason someone buys them to keep to raise a calf, my conscience is clear and they buy the animal at their own risk.

What is disgusting is when someone takes these cull cows with bad bags, bad dispostions, or other less-than-desirable characteristics and sells them as a premium product through an advertised bred cow sale. I am not talking about cows just culled for age. There is a market for these older cows that have stood the test of time. They will have good calves again in the spring, but they do need extra feed and care over the winter. But any reject sour old cow should be sold by the pound and not by the head. :wink: End of rant. :)
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Before Packerland in Gering closed, I took the culls directly to the plant so that somebody couldn't buy them to get another calf out of them. Especially the old cows which needed to go, NOT be calved out one more time. I sure do miss that marketing option... it was more profitable too!

My friend marked her culls this fall to be sold as weigh-ups, but the sale barn she took them to preg checked them, and sold them as bred. She called up furious that they had done this, and they told her they were doing her a favor since they brought more money... so it isn't always the seller selling culls as breds :wink: .

I might add, after this incident, I'm confident that sale barn will NEVER sell her culls as breds again :wink: .
 
Big Swede said:
I asked him why they didn't cull all those cows and he said his Dad would tell him and his brother to just get them in and help the calf get started (problem #2).
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:lol: :lol: :lol: The best way to break dad of that "solution" is to let him calve the cows out alone... then he'd learn what you should and should not tolerate in a cow. I laugh since I have been there... and the reason I still work here is because I was allowed to get rid of that crap!

You're right, even with continuous culling, problem cows still pop-up, but they sure aren't as frequent as they used to be :wink: . I still like to notch the ear tag of anything I have to catch throughout the year :) . Funny how if a cow messes up once, she seems to always mess up twice... if she messes up a third time, shame on me :wink: .
 
I believe that bulls should be bought from someone that raises cattle similarly to you and in a relatively common area to you. Buying bulls in Ohio to come to Montana is just absurd in my opinion. I used to AI alot when I was younger(ten years aago or so) and the heifer calves I kept off of some of the assorted AI sires just could not compete(longevity-wise) with the heifer calves that came from the cleanup bulls that were native to my area. It took me five or so years to figure this out and have finally weeded them cows out.

I guess what I am trying to say is when it comes time to AI use a bull that wasnt raised a 1000 miles away or by someone that doesn't run cattle fairly similar to yourself.
 
badroute said:
I believe that bulls should be bought from someone that raises cattle similarly to you and in a relatively common area to you. Buying bulls in Ohio to come to Montana is just absurd in my opinion. I used to AI alot when I was younger(ten years aago or so) and the heifer calves I kept off of some of the assorted AI sires just could not compete(longevity-wise) with the heifer calves that came from the cleanup bulls that were native to my area. It took me five or so years to figure this out and have finally weeded them cows out.

I guess what I am trying to say is when it comes time to AI use a bull that wasnt raised a 1000 miles away or by someone that doesn't run cattle fairly similar to yourself.
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I helped put my friend's cattle into a herd management computer program, and when the dust settled, the females out of clean-up bulls outperformed the females out of "premier" angus bloodlines 2:1. Also, his "generic" cows weren't the ones who smacked their calves around at calving... HMMMM! :D Maybe mass-produced bloodlines sometimes lead to mass-produced problems, but in the AI book those problems weren't very noticeable in glossy print :?
 

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