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The packing industry ruining ranching families?? How can the packers be responsible for ruining ranching familes when, according to court documents presented in "Pickett vs. ibp", the average PER HEAD profit for ibp during the period of "ALLEGED" market manipulation was $16 per head to sell everything from the tongue to the rectum and price cattle accordingly?? Keep in mind, ibp at that time was the largest most efficient packing company and the period of time in question were their most profitable years. $16 per head profit. WOW! SUCH HUGE PROFITS!!

How do you explain that Hayseed? What can you offer to counter evidence presented in Pickett vs. ibp?? Do you not believe actual financial records brought into court as evidence because it doesn't happen to fit your need for someone or something to blame???

There is one little hurdle that you have to cross in your relentless pursuit of blame and it's a cornerstone of our judicial system entitled "THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENSE". There is no exemption for this concept for large corporations because paker blamers like you believe they are inherently evil. In order to convict the large packers of market manipulation, price fixing, and all the other allegations against them, you have to provide the evidence to suport your position. A desire to blame will not suffice. Whether you like it or not, "the presumption of innocense" is the foundation that are laws are built on. Innocent until proven guilty not guilty by packer blamers until proven innocent. That is the foundation that I stand on despite the fact that it would be much more politically acceptable to join the ranks of those who blame large corporations for the lack of profitability on our ranches..

What evidence have you provided to support your beliefs of market manipuluation Hayseed? None! Zero! Absolutely nothing!

The jury's belief in Pickett vs. ibp that dropping the price in the cash market to reflect their purchases by other venues (forward contracts, packer owned cattle bought as feeder calves and/or yearlings) constitutes market manipulation was overturned by Judge Strom for very good reason. Judge Strom's decision was upheld by the appeals court. The appeals court's decision was upheld by the Supreme court. The evidence provided by the plaintiffs was nothing more than theories and that's all you have to stand on to support your views. If you don't believe in our judicial system, then you do not believe in much.

In addition, there have been countless investigations by GIPSA into alleged market manipulation that came up empty handed. Why is that Hayseed? You think GIPSA is bought off? That would be another example of how one conspiracy theory absent the evidence to support it leads to another conspiracy theory. You see, it doesn't matter to you and your fellow packer blamers what the facts supports, what is important to you is what you want to believe which is why R-CALF is 0 & 9 in court.

Explain this Hayseed, if there is so much money to be made in the packing industry, why was USPB's patronage dividends only $26 per head in their first years? How could that be? Listening to you and other packer blamers there is this "HUGE PACKER SPREAD" and money being made hand over fist which is why all these young ranchers are going out of business so how do you explain that??? Do you think USPB is squandering money away to hide their profits? Do you think those who manage USPB are embezzling money rather than paying their investors what they are owed? What's your conspiracy theory to support that??

Consider that USPB is made up by progressive cattlemen that have pursued higher quality cattle to increase their carcass premiums. Despite that, the AVERAGE carcass premiums were around $25 per head during their inception. How do you explain that? Do you think USPB is lying to their investors about the values of higher quality carcasses too??

If you add the patronage dividends and the carcass premiums you have a total of $51 per head for a progressive packing plant catering their higher quality carcasses to niche markets. How does that contrast with the "HUGE PACKER PROFITS" that R-CALF and company would like to believe are there to be had??

See what happens when you don't have the common sense to understand the difference between $15 per pound middle meats vs. the value of the entire animal on the hoof?

So how devoted to packer conspiracies are you Hayseed? Are you going to ignore these cold hard facts to believe what you want to believe or have you been misinformed?

Where is your proof of all this money being made by the large packers? Fact is it doesn't exist and it never did because if it did exist, those profits would be available for any investor to make themselves by investing in a packing company. Instead of facing the truth or going on a fact finding mission, you just come up with another conspiracy theory to counter what you don't want to believe.

Worse yet, you would pass legislation to break up the larger more efficient packing companies in favor of smaller less efficient packing companies that, due to their markets and their inefficiencies in slaughtering costs, would pay less for cattle because their costs were higher and their beef and beef by product markets were less. That's why I detest your beliefs Hayseed. In your ignorance, you will hurt that which you claim to want to protect. In your ignorance, you will force more young ranchers off the farms because you don't have a clue about the income and expenses of the packing and retail sectors of our indusries.

You will contradict nothing of what I have stated here with evidence to the contrary. Your evidence is someone else's opinion that shares your ignorant beliefs.

It gives me no pleasure to introduce you to your "factually void" positions but I will continue to do so for the future of this industry which you are bound and determined to destroy.

You call Faster Horses a liar when stating that there is unanswered questions. Well this post is riddled with questions Hayseed and they are not all rhetorical. Will you answer any of them truthfully or opt to make more statements like you always do? I can assure the readers that you will not answer a single question because you can't answer them. The facts do not support what you want to believe. So no Hayseed, Faster Horses did not lie about your unwillingness to answer questions.

~SH~

<blockquote data-quote="Anonymous" data-source="post: 494609">The packing industry ruining ranching families??&nbsp; How can the packers be responsible for ruining ranching familes when, according to court documents presented in &quot;Pickett vs. ibp&quot;, the average PER HEAD profit for ibp during the period of &quot;ALLEGED&quot; market manipulation was $16 per head to sell everything from the tongue to the rectum and price cattle accordingly??&nbsp; Keep in mind, ibp at that time was the largest most efficient packing company and the period of time in question were their most profitable years.&nbsp; $16 per head profit.&nbsp; WOW!&nbsp; SUCH HUGE PROFITS!!How do you explain that Hayseed?&nbsp; What can you offer to counter evidence presented in Pickett vs. ibp??&nbsp; Do you not believe actual financial records brought into court as evidence because it doesn&#039;t happen to fit your need for someone or something to blame???There is one little hurdle that you have to cross in your relentless pursuit of blame and it&#039;s a cornerstone of our judicial system entitled &quot;THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENSE&quot;.&nbsp; There is no exemption for this concept for large corporations because paker blamers like you believe they are inherently evil.&nbsp; In order to convict the large packers of market manipulation, price fixing, and all the other allegations against them, you have to provide the evidence to suport your position.&nbsp; A desire to blame will not suffice.&nbsp; Whether you like it or not, &quot;the presumption of innocense&quot; is the foundation that are laws are built on.&nbsp; Innocent until proven guilty not guilty by packer blamers until proven innocent.&nbsp; That is the foundation that I stand on despite the fact that it would be much more politically acceptable to join the ranks of those who blame large corporations for the lack of profitability on our ranches..What evidence have you provided to support your beliefs of market manipuluation Hayseed?&nbsp; None!&nbsp; Zero!&nbsp; Absolutely nothing!The jury&#039;s belief in Pickett vs. ibp that dropping the price in the cash market to reflect their purchases by other venues (forward contracts, packer owned cattle bought as feeder calves and/or yearlings) constitutes market manipulation was overturned by Judge Strom for very good reason.&nbsp; Judge Strom&#039;s decision was upheld by the appeals court.&nbsp; The appeals court&#039;s decision was upheld by the Supreme court.&nbsp; The evidence provided by the plaintiffs was nothing more than theories and that&#039;s all you have to stand on to support your views.&nbsp; If you don&#039;t believe in our judicial system, then you do not believe in much.In addition, there have been countless investigations by GIPSA into alleged market manipulation that came up empty handed.&nbsp; Why is that Hayseed?&nbsp; You think GIPSA is bought off?&nbsp; That would be another example of how one conspiracy theory absent the evidence to support it leads to another conspiracy theory.&nbsp; You see, it doesn&#039;t matter to you and your fellow packer blamers what the facts supports, what is important to you is what you want to believe which is why R-CALF is 0 &amp; 9 in court.Explain this Hayseed, if there is so much money to be made in the packing industry, why was USPB&#039;s patronage dividends only $26 per head in their first years?&nbsp; How could that be?&nbsp; Listening to you and other packer blamers there is this &quot;HUGE PACKER SPREAD&quot; and money being made hand over fist which is why all these young ranchers are going out of business so how do you explain that???&nbsp; Do you think USPB is squandering money away to hide their profits?&nbsp; Do you think those who manage USPB are embezzling money rather than paying their investors what they are owed?&nbsp; What&#039;s your conspiracy theory to support that??Consider that USPB is made up by progressive cattlemen that have pursued higher quality cattle to increase their carcass premiums.&nbsp; Despite that, the AVERAGE carcass premiums were around $25 per head during their inception.&nbsp; How do you explain that?&nbsp; Do you think USPB is lying to their investors about the values of higher quality carcasses too??If you add the patronage dividends and the carcass premiums you have a total of $51 per head for a progressive packing plant catering their higher quality carcasses to niche markets.&nbsp; How does that contrast with the &quot;HUGE PACKER PROFITS&quot; that R-CALF and company would like to believe are there to be had??See what happens when you don&#039;t have the common sense to understand the difference between $15 per pound middle meats vs. the value of the entire animal on the hoof?So how devoted to packer conspiracies are you Hayseed?&nbsp; Are you going to ignore these cold hard facts to believe what you want to believe or have you been misinformed?Where is your proof of all this money being made by the large packers?&nbsp; Fact is it doesn&#039;t exist and it never did because if it did exist, those profits would be available for any investor to make themselves by investing in a packing company.&nbsp; Instead of facing the truth or going on a fact finding mission, you just come up with another conspiracy theory to counter what you don&#039;t want to believe.Worse yet, you would pass legislation to break up the larger more efficient packing companies in favor of smaller less efficient packing companies that, due to their markets and their inefficiencies in slaughtering costs, would pay less for cattle because their costs were higher and their beef and beef by product markets were less.&nbsp; That&#039;s why I detest your beliefs Hayseed.&nbsp; In your ignorance, you will hurt that which you claim to want to protect.&nbsp; In your ignorance, you will force more young ranchers off the farms because you don&#039;t have a clue about the income and expenses of the packing and retail sectors of our indusries.&nbsp; You will contradict nothing of what I have stated here with evidence to the contrary.&nbsp; Your evidence is someone else&#039;s opinion that shares your ignorant beliefs.It gives me no pleasure to introduce you to your &quot;factually void&quot; positions but I will continue to do so for the future of this industry which you are bound and determined to destroy.You call Faster Horses a liar when stating that there is unanswered questions.&nbsp; Well this post is riddled with questions Hayseed and they are not all rhetorical.&nbsp; Will you answer any of them truthfully or opt to make more statements like you always do?&nbsp; I can assure the readers that you will not answer a single question because you can&#039;t answer them.&nbsp; The facts do not support what you want to believe. So no Hayseed, Faster Horses did not lie about your unwillingness to answer questions.&nbsp; ~SH~</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Anonymous, post: 494609"] The packing industry ruining ranching families?? How can the packers be responsible for ruining ranching familes when, according to court documents presented in "Pickett vs. ibp", the average PER HEAD profit for ibp during the period of "ALLEGED" market manipulation was $16 per head to sell everything from the tongue to the rectum and price cattle accordingly?? Keep in mind, ibp at that time was the largest most efficient packing company and the period of time in question were their most profitable years. $16 per head profit. WOW! SUCH HUGE PROFITS!! How do you explain that Hayseed? What can you offer to counter evidence presented in Pickett vs. ibp?? Do you not believe actual financial records brought into court as evidence because it doesn't happen to fit your need for someone or something to blame??? There is one little hurdle that you have to cross in your relentless pursuit of blame and it's a cornerstone of our judicial system entitled "THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENSE". There is no exemption for this concept for large corporations because paker blamers like you believe they are inherently evil. In order to convict the large packers of market manipulation, price fixing, and all the other allegations against them, you have to provide the evidence to suport your position. A desire to blame will not suffice. Whether you like it or not, "the presumption of innocense" is the foundation that are laws are built on. Innocent until proven guilty not guilty by packer blamers until proven innocent. That is the foundation that I stand on despite the fact that it would be much more politically acceptable to join the ranks of those who blame large corporations for the lack of profitability on our ranches.. What evidence have you provided to support your beliefs of market manipuluation Hayseed? None! Zero! Absolutely nothing! The jury's belief in Pickett vs. ibp that dropping the price in the cash market to reflect their purchases by other venues (forward contracts, packer owned cattle bought as feeder calves and/or yearlings) constitutes market manipulation was overturned by Judge Strom for very good reason. Judge Strom's decision was upheld by the appeals court. The appeals court's decision was upheld by the Supreme court. The evidence provided by the plaintiffs was nothing more than theories and that's all you have to stand on to support your views. If you don't believe in our judicial system, then you do not believe in much. In addition, there have been countless investigations by GIPSA into alleged market manipulation that came up empty handed. Why is that Hayseed? You think GIPSA is bought off? That would be another example of how one conspiracy theory absent the evidence to support it leads to another conspiracy theory. You see, it doesn't matter to you and your fellow packer blamers what the facts supports, what is important to you is what you want to believe which is why R-CALF is 0 & 9 in court. Explain this Hayseed, if there is so much money to be made in the packing industry, why was USPB's patronage dividends only $26 per head in their first years? How could that be? Listening to you and other packer blamers there is this "HUGE PACKER SPREAD" and money being made hand over fist which is why all these young ranchers are going out of business so how do you explain that??? Do you think USPB is squandering money away to hide their profits? Do you think those who manage USPB are embezzling money rather than paying their investors what they are owed? What's your conspiracy theory to support that?? Consider that USPB is made up by progressive cattlemen that have pursued higher quality cattle to increase their carcass premiums. Despite that, the AVERAGE carcass premiums were around $25 per head during their inception. How do you explain that? Do you think USPB is lying to their investors about the values of higher quality carcasses too?? If you add the patronage dividends and the carcass premiums you have a total of $51 per head for a progressive packing plant catering their higher quality carcasses to niche markets. How does that contrast with the "HUGE PACKER PROFITS" that R-CALF and company would like to believe are there to be had?? See what happens when you don't have the common sense to understand the difference between $15 per pound middle meats vs. the value of the entire animal on the hoof? So how devoted to packer conspiracies are you Hayseed? Are you going to ignore these cold hard facts to believe what you want to believe or have you been misinformed? Where is your proof of all this money being made by the large packers? Fact is it doesn't exist and it never did because if it did exist, those profits would be available for any investor to make themselves by investing in a packing company. Instead of facing the truth or going on a fact finding mission, you just come up with another conspiracy theory to counter what you don't want to believe. Worse yet, you would pass legislation to break up the larger more efficient packing companies in favor of smaller less efficient packing companies that, due to their markets and their inefficiencies in slaughtering costs, would pay less for cattle because their costs were higher and their beef and beef by product markets were less. That's why I detest your beliefs Hayseed. In your ignorance, you will hurt that which you claim to want to protect. In your ignorance, you will force more young ranchers off the farms because you don't have a clue about the income and expenses of the packing and retail sectors of our indusries. You will contradict nothing of what I have stated here with evidence to the contrary. Your evidence is someone else's opinion that shares your ignorant beliefs. [b]It gives me no pleasure to introduce you to your "factually void" positions but I will continue to do so for the future of this industry which you are bound and determined to destroy.[/b] You call Faster Horses a liar when stating that there is unanswered questions. Well this post is riddled with questions Hayseed and they are not all rhetorical. Will you answer any of them truthfully or opt to make more statements like you always do? I can assure the readers that you will not answer a single question because you can't answer them. The facts do not support what you want to believe. So no Hayseed, Faster Horses did not lie about your unwillingness to answer questions. ~SH~ [/QUOTE]

Verification: What animal is usually the product of a ranch?