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Min Shelter and many other factors

B

Ben H

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
1,738
Location
Gorham, ME
I've recently returned to my home after living out of state a few years only to be sent to Iraq, in about 2 weeks I'll be headed home again. I'm thinking about taking over and expanding our beef operation. As of right now we're pretty small scale, about 20 herefords. I have two choices as I see it, get bigger or get out. One of the biggest things holding me back is the idea of having to build a shelter for the winter. From what I've been reading recently, people out west who likely have as bad or worse winters then us sometimes provide nothing more then a good wind break for their animals. I read an interesting article about research done at Colorado State making wind brakes in the shape of a 90 degree V made of stacked round bales. They also allow blowing snow to drift down the sides of the stacks providing all winter long access from the back side. What are people using for minimum shelter for their animals in areas that have winter conditions as bad or worse then Southern Maine (altitude is about 250 ft, about 20 miles from the ocean, Jan/Feb is usually in the 20's but can dip occasionaly to 10-20 bellow)?
I live in an area with a lot of housing developments going in and health consicous people. I see a good potential for a market of direct market beef as well as grass finished. I've heard a lot of mixed feelings about both. I'd like to hear about peoples experience with both. Personally I'll take a corn fed steer any day, but if people are paying for grass finished then maybe I should try it.
Also I've been somewhat convinced that cross breeds are the way to go due to better rates of gain and feeding efficiency. I'm planning to cross my herefords to some Angus, then maybe a third breed for the next generation. How many people have gone that route?
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I live in northern Mn a wooded pasture is better than any building.I have set up bales here along the corral where we winter our heifers.I would not worry about building cattle sheds we had them on the place I grew up on when it got real cold and windy the cows would head out into the woods to whether the storm.The place I have now has a wooded hill that has prickley ash brush about 7 ft high its thick and even on the windest day in there the wind never blows.On cold windy days I feed hay inside a clearing or on the down wind side.Use what mother nature provided for you.I feed all winter on my corn ground if weather permits that way all the manure is spread where I need it without hauling any.Its the simple things that will make the most money.
 
Ben H said:
Also I've been somewhat convinced that cross breeds are the way to go due to better rates of gain and feeding efficiency. I'm planning to cross my herefords to some Angus, then maybe a third breed for the next generation. How many people have gone that route?
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Here would be my advice. Breed your Herefords cows to Angus bulls. The resulting offspring will turn out to be black baldies. Keep breeding the baldy replacement heifers to Angus bulls, and their calves will either be solid black or black baldy. Just keep breeding to Angus, and forget about a third breed. Angus can accomplish anything necessary for rate of gain and feed efficiency. This way, you can always keep your own replacements, and your herd will have uniformity.

Just free advice, for what it's worth. :wink:
 
Denny did a good job of covering things Ben H.,if you have the wooded areas on your farm/ranch. Out in our country, we have some pretty open areas that we winter our cows in, but there is also a windbreak of some kind in the SE corner of our pastures. You have to remember that in the west, other than the mountain areas, the winter usually is our dry months. We do average 30 some inches of snow a year, but big snows are not terribly common. However, wind IS common then :wink: . We need the wind to blow some if we do get much winter snows, as it blows off the ridges and hilltops so the cattle can graze. I don't know if it is a hard and fast rule, but I think as you cross the Missouri River to the east, usually the forages aren't the best for grazing after freeze up.

I would look around at what some of the better, successful producers in your area are doing with their livestock. Go visit some of them.

PS. I should have started this with thanking you, Ben H., for your service to our country. After all, that is why we are all able to be free. Thank you. :!: :!:
 
I'll second Tap's thanks to you!! We appreciate all you guys do! My nephew is going over at the end of the year.
 
That was my first thought, too--Welcome home. :)

So far as questions; windbreaks are a big thing in my part of the world because we don't have natural ones. Trees. If you have trees, I wouldn't worry about windbreaks. If not, there are a multitude of different options. We're currently looking at: http://www.tirebaler.com/ (though not this particular company)

I see a good potential for a market of direct market beef as well as grass finished. I've heard a lot of mixed feelings about both. I'd like to hear about peoples experience with both. Personally I'll take a corn fed steer any day, but if people are paying for grass finished then maybe I should try it.
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Definately take advantage of that niche market!
I know a number of people who drive 2-300 miles to the Denver area to deliver grass-finished beef. (And corn-finished for that matter. I've noticed it's not necessarily the finishing method that's the big demand, but rather the lack of confinement practices; no hormones, no Rumensin, etc.)
 
Soapweed said:
Just keep breeding to Angus, and forget about a third breed. Angus can accomplish anything necessary for rate of gain and feed efficiency.
I say the third because I was at a class one night and the speaker said that research showed the maximum improvement with the third breed. I forgot the bulls name, but he had a recomendation of an angus bull with good calving ease and disposition. I bought some semen before I left for the sandbox. Going to use it when I get home.

I certainly have plenty of woods, I guess I'll have to put some fence in there. I'm partial to high tensile, what's really neccesary in peoples opinion for the woods?

I am in a Mountain Infantry unit in the Maine Army National Guard. A few of us were taken to augment a Maintanence company from our state tasked with a Force Protection mission at Camp Liberty, part of the biggest base in the country. In the middle is Baghdad International and Camp Cropper Prison where it was recently published in Stars and Stripes that Saddam is often kept there. I was a designated marksman in a 70ft Tower in the North East corner of the base overlooking the Abu Ghraib market, the famous prison is still a ways away.
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Thanks for your service, Bn H.

Get your hands on a copy or better yet, a subscription of The Stockman Grassfarmer. Call 1 800 748 9808 and they will send you a trail copy.

They have artickles from people from all over the states and even the world, dealing with these questions.

Good luck and I envy you, having all those trees. As Tap said, we get quite a bit of wind, and we don't have many trees, out here on the "baldies". Like Denny said, I think if you've got lots of trees, your livewstock will be fine.
And there are as many ways to run cattle as there are people doing it. Get to know some of your "older" stockman in your area. they will have a wealth of advice. Just remember, there are lots of ways to do things and your only limited by your ideas.

As far as grass fattening , there is more difference within each breed, than there is between them.

One thing about grass fattening, a steer will usually be fat and ready to butcher, when he is 100 pounds more than his mothers mature weight. So if you can find mature cows who are 1100 pounds, your steers would be ready at 1200. And the smaller the size of bovine, the easier it is to fatten them on forage.

Get your hands on the magazine, and you won't be sorry. There are quite a few people doing what you want to do, in your neck of the woods.
 
Ben H:
Thanks Ben. We appreciate you guys. Cow will get along quite well in -20 degree weather if they have a belly full of feed and are out of the wind. Spring rains and wind is more of a concern here, fortunatly, said with a tongue in the cheek, we don't often have that here. I liveon the open treeless prairie, our shelterbelts and windbreaks were man planted. Supplemental windbreaks are often used here. A windbreak 8 or 9 feet high will break the wind for about 80 feet.
I am a strong believer in cross-breading, but I am not doing it now. I would suggest a 2 breed criss-cross. We had planned for using 3 breeds here with about 350 cows, but found it wouldn't work, although we had small patures it took to much time sorting and keeping records. A lot of people, if they are able to pick comlementory bloodlines can do nearly as well with just a single breed.
 
Ben H said:
Soapweed said:
Just keep breeding to Angus, and forget about a third breed. Angus can accomplish anything necessary for rate of gain and feed efficiency.
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I say the third because I was at a class one night and the speaker said that research showed the maximum improvement with the third breed. I forgot the bulls name, but he had a recomendation of an angus bull with good calving ease and disposition. I bought some semen before I left for the sandbox. Going to use it when I get home.

I certainly have plenty of woods, I guess I'll have to put some fence in there. I'm partial to high tensile, what's really neccesary in peoples opinion for the woods?

I am in a Mountain Infantry unit in the Maine Army National Guard. A few of us were taken to augment a Maintanence company from our state tasked with a Force Protection mission at Camp Liberty, part of the biggest base in the country. In the middle is Baghdad International and Camp Cropper Prison where it was recently published in Stars and Stripes that Saddam is often kept there. I was a designated marksman in a 70ft Tower in the North East corner of the base overlooking the Abu Ghraib market, the famous prison is still a ways away.
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There is hybrid vigor to be gained by the third breed, but especially with a small herd, any advantages gained will be offset by keeping uniformity in your herd and in trying to get the right kind of replacement heifers.

Thank you for your service in Iraq. People like you are what makes this country great, and more importantly--keeps this country great. One positive young man like you, who is willing to serve his country, is worth a whole town full of people like Disagreeable. All he/she/it does is complain. Thanks again, you've done America proud.
 
The problem with Black Baldies, is they can have too many problems that Herefords have. Pink eye, burnt bags, bad bags, etc. (Not to say this against herefords.) In my opinion the soonest you can get them all black or all red, the better. I am like Soapweed and would encourage you to use the Red or Black Angus back on the Baldies.

A real good Hereford breeder here has this to say about Black Baldies.
"That first cross is dynamite and it is downhill from there." So if you put the Angus or Red Angus back on them, I think it would work best because you are gonna want to keep some replacement heifers.
 
I sure liked the simmental / hereford cross. Outperformed the little british breeds alone hands down. Having said that, you gotta be very careful with bull selection, but that holds true regardless. It's a cross that gives you good big calves at weaning, and makes replacements you'll be happy with for years to come. 'course, once you get a herd of herford / simmie cross mothers, you'll want to cross to blonde d'aquitaine. IMHO :wink:
Having said that, like others have said there is more variation within breeds than between them, generally seaking.

As far as shelter goes, I live as far north as anyone in Canada that ranches, and the most important shelter is that which the calf gets for it's first 48 hrs. after that, trees and hills are all you need (if you have 'em) along with good bedding.
 
OUT HERE IN THE DRY WEST WE GET ALONG FINE WITH ONLY WIND BREAKS, BUT I WONDER IF THAT HOLDS WITH AS MUCH MOISTURE AS YOU MAY GET THERE?
I'd A LOT RATHER CALVE AT O DEGREES THAN AT 32 DEGREES AND WET!
 
Another advantage to just sticking with Angus (or Red Angus) after your first cross is that there shouldn't be any calving problems. When you mess with a Continental type bull for the third cross, it can be inviting larger birthweights and possible calving problems.
 
Soapweed said:
Another advantage to just sticking with Angus (or Red Angus) after your first cross is that there shouldn't be any calving problems. When you mess with a Continental type bull for the third cross, it can be inviting larger birthweights and possible calving problems.
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I think you'd have to admit that that would depend entirely on the hereford he was starting with, and the bulls of choice. I've had calving troubles calving angus bred angus, but wouldn't blame it on the breed. Our entire herd many years ago was hereford, and we switched to simmental bulls. Back then herefords where alot smaller animal than they are today, and simmentals may have been bigger. Can't say wi didn't have ANY troubles, but wise bull selection made the switch relatively painless.
 
If you keep heifers for replacements that have big birthweights, no bull can correct that in one season. Pretty hard to get the heavy BW out of the cows once it in is there. BW is more heritable from the cow than from the bull, the way I understand it.

We had friends that retired and keep 50 of their home raised Hereford cows. They bought 2 Limousin bulls to cross them with. The first year, 48 cows calved fine and they had to pull two. The next year they had to pull two again and out of the same cows. So the Mrs. looked in her records and those two Hereford cows themselves had a BW of over 100 lbs.
 
Faster horses said:
If you keep heifers for replacements that have big birthweights, no bull can correct that in one season. Pretty hard to get the heavy BW out of the cows once it in is there. BW is more heritable from the cow than from the bull, the way I understand it.

We had friends that retired and keep 50 of their home raised Hereford cows. They bought 2 Limousin bulls to cross them with. The first year, 48 cows calved fine and they had to pull two. The next year they had to pull two again and out of the same cows. So the Mrs. looked in her records and those two Hereford cows themselves had a BW of over 100 lbs.
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I would tend to dispute this BW theory, FH. I have no doubt the cow does have play a large part in the equation, but it only takes one bad bull to have a wreck, one cow only affects one calf.
I like to keep birthweights down, but down in proportion to the size of cow I'm running. I sure don't want a bunch of 65 lb calves very bad, but I like to keep them around 80 - 100.
 
This past year I used a Char bull on blk/b cows for the first time, thinking about doing more . What's your guys thoughts on this. Thanks
 

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