Min Shelter and many other factors

[Jinglebob]

I like to keep birthweights down, but down in proportion to the size of cow I'm running. I sure don't want a bunch of 65 lb calves very bad, but I like to keep them around 80 - 100.

:shock:
What on earth do your cows weigh!?

 

[Silver]

I like to keep birthweights down, but down in proportion to the size of cow I'm running. I sure don't want a bunch of 65 lb calves very bad, but I like to keep them around 80 - 100.

:shock:
What on earth do your cows weigh!?

I like to keep around the 1400lb average, although some are quite a bit bigger. But this is where I'm starting to kick myself. We've been using quite a bit of red angus the last few years, and while I like the cross I'm getting my cows smaller than I'd like again. To compensate, we've been buying some good simm / red angus cross bulls and it seems to be helping things come back a bit.

 

[Faster horses]

Silver, my point was to make people aware that birthweights are not always the cause of big calves. It can be from the cow. So if you have heifers with big birthweights and use a calving ease bull on them, you are probably going to get bigger calves than you are anticipating and it is not the fault of the bull.

 

[Silver]

ahhh... now I see your point, and you are quite right. I'm not allways the sharpest tack in drawer :shock:

 

[Silver]

This past year I used a Char bull on blk/b cows for the first time, thinking about doing more . What's your guys thoughts on this. Thanks

I don't have a bunch of experience with exactly that cross, although I seem to remember seeing a bunch of skunk tails as a result.... I might be wrong. I do know that Char / Hereford makes a dang fine cross, it'll will give you a cow you'll be happy to have for years to come.

 

[Whitetop]

Ben H , thanks from the bottom of my heart for your service to our country. I'm sure you have good times in your memory and some demons you don't want to bring back, but you must look forward and see the good things around you. It has been nearly 40 years since I played the game and I had all but forgotten about freinds who I can see ,but their names are fuzzy. But I made a promise to keep their memory alive. I have a nephew who is flying over the sandbox , several freinds sons and daughters who are there and our local gaurd unit just returned from there, short three men than they left with. People need to realize that freedom costs more than the thirty seconds at the start of a ball game. Again THANK YOU with every ounce of my soul . Whitetop

 

[CattleRMe]

Thank you Ben for your service to our country!

If those herfords were mine I'd but Angus bulls on them. You'll end up with nice baldy steers to sell and some really nice heifers to add to your cow herd.

Thank you once again.

 

[Jason]

A char bull on F1 black baldie cows will result in tan white faced calves. Those calves were the hottest ticket in the feedlots a few years back. However as with all seemingly good ideas someone started keeping those tan white faced heifers as cows. The calves from the mixed up breeding programs were sometimes mistaken for the original 3 way cross, and poor performance took the shine off those calves.

Char bull on a herf cow is usually a yellow white face calf.

Char bull on a black cow is a grey calf. Those ones really feed, but as there was a discount on them in the past many went into cowherds...now some guys never know what color they are going to get.

For anyone who thinks one parent affects the calf more than the other, it is a 50/50 blend of genetics. Some calves look more like mom or pop, same as our kids, but it is 50/50. If heifers are retained, the bull will affect the genetics buy way of his daughters, but it will be 50/50 that daughter and the sire used on her.

This fact shows how any myths about slaughter weight being tied to mature weight of mother or father alone are false. It is a blend of genetics. Management will affect it as well. Grassed cattle will be bigger at slaughter at a consistant finish than their contemporaries fed from weaning. The blends of different breeds lend to variation in slaughter charicteristics, the char baldie cross calves won't be the same as a straight hereford calves or the same as straight angus calves even if frame scores and other visible factors seem equal.

 

[Steve]

Farming (or small time ranching) in a populated area is "fun" if you can put up with the stupid rules...

the market is there for grass fed and grain finished.....but it is easier to "sell" grass fed as more natural....to a city buyer...use terms generically and be prepared to answer questions! angus cross is understood...black baldie is looked at with consternation......and sometimes shock.....

Natural is a great easy sell,...but stay away from organic as it seems to not pay off for the headaches...

you will either need to custom butcher or find a good local butcher....city people can not fathom butchering a steer....

I package myself....but use a menonite butcher....he is great and cheap...but you may have to build your own box for aging or find a locker that will let you set a few terms......I tend to push for a 21 day age..and it sells well......

when getting close to develoements I have found few complain about hay fields and most even like it.....but hate most other farming....so plant with compliants in mind....

locally ( in NJ) there is farm preservation acres available...they lease cheap..and I had put them all to alfalfa..also look for those who have farm assesments that are not farming ..they will pay to have thier acreage put to hay....but make sure you lock up long term leases at the low price...because as soon as you get the work done to make it a producing hay field...some one will offer them a better deal...

Locally I did well with small bales for selling to horse people as a great source of extra cash...they like a small bale and pay extra for it......


Good Luck and thank you for your service!

 

[Broke Cowboy]

I've recently returned to my home after living out of state a few years only to be sent to Iraq, in about 2 weeks I'll be headed home again. I'm thinking about taking over and expanding our beef operation. As of right now we're pretty small scale, about 20 herefords. I have two choices as I see it, get bigger or get out. One of the biggest things holding me back is the idea of having to build a shelter for the winter. From what I've been reading recently, people out west who likely have as bad or worse winters then us sometimes provide nothing more then a good wind break for their animals. I read an interesting article about research done at Colorado State making wind brakes in the shape of a 90 degree V made of stacked round bales. They also allow blowing snow to drift down the sides of the stacks providing all winter long access from the back side. What are people using for minimum shelter for their animals in areas that have winter conditions as bad or worse then Southern Maine (altitude is about 250 ft, about 20 miles from the ocean, Jan/Feb is usually in the 20's but can dip occasionaly to 10-20 bellow)?
I live in an area with a lot of housing developments going in and health consicous people. I see a good potential for a market of direct market beef as well as grass finished. I've heard a lot of mixed feelings about both. I'd like to hear about peoples experience with both. Personally I'll take a corn fed steer any day, but if people are paying for grass finished then maybe I should try it.
Also I've been somewhat convinced that cross breeds are the way to go due to better rates of gain and feeding efficiency. I'm planning to cross my herefords to some Angus, then maybe a third breed for the next generation. How many people have gone that route?

Ben

It is not the winter that is the problem - it is the moisture. Most cows can take a good amount of cold if they can get out of the wind and you poke the feed to them. How much rain or wet snow you get? Where is the prevailing wind from? Do you have natural shelter? And possibly the most important question - do you have drainage?

We run a bunch of cows - horned herfs - outside year round in an environment similar to yours. They get no over head cover - other than some trees that stay green year round and the ground slopes fairly well to the south. So the wind break is basically natural and there is good water drainage.

I figure we get about 35 inches of rain a year, and the ground is quite muddy on the flats - but the hills do well.

Calving can be a prob - so you got a few choices.

Calve out in the good weather - on grass. You will have to make some feed and marketing adjustments.

Calve out in the winter on snow. Most British breeds do this fairly well and with little attention other than good bedding and a little extra feed to get the girls through to spring in decent shape. I have done this in the prairies, the mountains and on the east coast. I like it for a bunch of reasons, but it requires a lot of extra work.

Build a shelter for the calves and do it during the wet season.

I have written them in MY favourite order - but you do as you see fit.

I think you are from Maine - I will tell you right now from my east coast experiences that you are not going to have a real prob with cold - it will be the wet and cold combo that will get you. If you can keep the cows sheltered in a bush and calve on grass - or calve out with those good portable calf shelters - you should be ok - just make sure you have good drainage.

If the cows start to get a real good build up of tag due to mud, lack of drainage or poor bedding - they tend to get cold -then you got probs. Give them some place to get out of the wind, stand on decent ground and they should do ok.

Drainage and cedar trees will save your bacon if you got them.

As for the various breeds there are so many to chose from I fingure you will get plenty of advice on that - but cross them you should.

Regards,

B.C.

 

[Ben H]

Fortunately I have a good butcher/slaughter house about 10 min away. The best animal I ever had killed there was one when they weren't busy and I got to let it hang for like 28 days. One thing I've never tried is Wet Aging. From what I understand you let it age in the package before it's frozen, is that correct? Interestingly I was reading somewhere that someone was testing shear strength of their meat with different aging times. It appeared that the extended aging times with grass-finished beef didn't make a significant difference.

This is directed to nobody in paticular, but as far as Angus goes, if I wanted pyschotic cattle I'd have gone with them 15 years ago when we bought our first Herefords. Do I tell people Hereford beef is better, No, that's why I ignore this "Certified Hereford Beef" program". When it comes to "Certified Angus" I wouldn't waste my money there neither, in my mind it's in the same category as Organic Beef. I don't hesitate to tell any of my non-farming friends that. I haven't registered my animals in quite a few years, I'm not interested in showing them anymore. I see them as beef production units now. After 4 years of college with a BS in Animal Science I was opened up to the Commerical industry that growing up showing cattle in 4-H hid me from for many years. Since I don't register my animals I figure why not cross them and utlize the genectic advantage of the F1 and F2 generations. I've decided to go with Angus for F1, why? One major reason, they're breed is large in numbers. They have a larger genectic pool. Many of these small breeds just lack the genetic diversity for me.
btw, I do thank anyone for their service related comments. I'm just doing my duty as an American. I didn't want to grow old thinking I didn't do my part.

 

[CattleRMe]

The experience we've had with char bulls on black cows has ended up with grey calves that are monsters at weening. They have out weighed our straight angus calves.

 

[Ben H]

It is not the winter that is the problem - it is the moisture. Most cows can take a good amount of cold if they can get out of the wind and you poke the feed to them. How much rain or wet snow you get? Where is the prevailing wind from? Do you have natural shelter? And possibly the most important question - do you have drainage?

We run a bunch of cows - horned herfs - outside year round in an environment similar to yours. They get no over head cover - other than some trees that stay green year round and the ground slopes fairly well to the south. So the wind break is basically natural and there is good water drainage.

I figure we get about 35 inches of rain a year, and the ground is quite muddy on the flats - but the hills do well.

Calving can be a prob - so you got a few choices.

Calve out in the good weather - on grass. You will have to make some feed and marketing adjustments.

Calve out in the winter on snow. Most British breeds do this fairly well and with little attention other than good bedding and a little extra feed to get the girls through to spring in decent shape. I have done this in the prairies, the mountains and on the east coast. I like it for a bunch of reasons, but it requires a lot of extra work.

Build a shelter for the calves and do it during the wet season.

I have written them in MY favourite order - but you do as you see fit.

I think you are from Maine - I will tell you right now from my east coast experiences that you are not going to have a real prob with cold - it will be the wet and cold combo that will get you. If you can keep the cows sheltered in a bush and calve on grass - or calve out with those good portable calf shelters - you should be ok - just make sure you have good drainage.

If the cows start to get a real good build up of tag due to mud, lack of drainage or poor bedding - they tend to get cold -then you got probs. Give them some place to get out of the wind, stand on decent ground and they should do ok.

Drainage and cedar trees will save your bacon if you got them.

As for the various breeds there are so many to chose from I fingure you will get plenty of advice on that - but cross them you should.

Regards,

B.C.

I'm not sure what our total precip is, it's usually significant and never in the same form. We can have rain in February and Snow in June (not the norm). We usually have about 12-20 inches of snow on the ground in the middle of the winter but it can be gone in a few days. I've had some cows calve in the winter before, brought them in ahead of time if they aren't too early. We have gotten fudning from NRCS to put up fencing to keep animals out of wet areas. My cows usually are pretty dry as far as mud goes. We had a bad mud hole last winter, we had a pipe break feeding the waterer. No way to fix it until last spring; we also added a culvert. When I get home I'm going to start scouting some spots in the woods to fence in. The challenge is that my woods are probably 500 feet plus from the waterer.

 

[Broke Cowboy]

Hi Ben

You wrote:

I'm not sure what our total precip is, it's usually significant and never in the same form. We can have rain in February and Snow in June (not the norm). We usually have about 12-20 inches of snow on the ground in the middle of the winter but it can be gone in a few days. I've had some cows calve in the winter before, brought them in ahead of time if they aren't too early. We have gotten fudning from NRCS to put up fencing to keep animals out of wet areas. My cows usually are pretty dry as far as mud goes. We had a bad mud hole last winter, we had a pipe break feeding the waterer. No way to fix it until last spring; we also added a culvert. When I get home I'm going to start scouting some spots in the woods to fence in. The challenge is that my woods are probably 500 feet plus from the waterer.

Well, it sounds like you are set up similar to us. As long as you have some good perimeter fencing, you can use a single or double strand for interior.

It sounds like you have a decent bush for the cattle so if I was you, I would not worry about the water situation too much. Mine will lick snow and walk the distance - similar to yours - to water with no probs - so you might try a couple of strands of tensile to create an alley for them to get their drink. Run the lines fairly close together, and make sure one is well grounded and the other is hot. That way if they push the fence at all in the frosty or snowy season they will still get a good bite from the fencer.

Sounds like you might have a good plan - just try to get the winter shelter on a bit of a slope, with some clear areas out of the wind for them to get some sun. They will do just fine.

I think you mentioned you might sell some cattle to the local market. We usually sell about 30 a year right out the farm gate. We have a good butcher and we also have the meat inspected. The customers are welcomed to come to the "pick" field to pick out the animal they want - most get a good bit of enjoyment out of this.

We let them throw a little corn to the animals - seems the folks from the city like to do this sort of thing. Keep them in the back of the truck when the herd comes around - saves a bunch of potential trouble! We record the tag number and then cut out the animal for slaughter.

Make sure the butcher tapes the tag number to the top of the frozen pile of meat.

You meet some great folks and some not so great - the nice thing about being the boss is you can tell the not so greats that you are not interested in their trouble.

Build a good relationship with the biutcher - if it costs a bit more, it is sometimes worth it - a quality product is always in demand.

Our animals only go when there is a complete steer of heifer sold. Nothing less than halves and they pay $2.50 per pound hanging weight. I do not kill until the cheque has cleared with the new clients and that has put a stop to the "back outs and bad cheques". I take a minimum of $400 bucks up front with new folks. Otherwise it is all or nothing. The old reliables and this family do business both in advance or upon pick up - with no hesitation. Cash is king if you get my drift.

This year we are booked with only about 30 going to the sale barn - the remainder another 40 or so will go out the gate. I am not so sure we want to get any bigger.

We strictly grass our animals and the selling starts in late August.

It takes some time to build this clientelle and you will have to sort through the dead wood. But after you get it set up it does pay. Our average side weighs in at 325 pounds and we go through 60 of them a year. We intend to grow another 10 - 20 sides this year and then stop - it is a big committment and time vs selling has reached the maximum

Out of that we pay the kill - 50 bucks and the cut and wrap - total butcher costs per cow are usually in the neighbourhood of 300 - 350 bucks. It can be done cheaper, but the quality of the man doing the work justifies the cost - at least to us. We usually gross about 1600 - 1650 per animal. So we tend to clear about $1200 - $1350 per animal sold. I wish that was all profit, but it does allow us to pay some bills!

So if you are small and starting out - you can go to the sale barn for the easy sale at first and as you grow. As time marches on you can start selling out the door - not for everyone - and everyone has horror stories - including us - but they are almost non-existent today.

Or you can go the seed stock route if you are inclined - a tough game to get started in - but it pays off if you are a decent promoter and have good stock.

Whichever way you go - work your butt off and be honest - your name is everything in the cow game.

It is great to see some new blood - especially your younger blood - enter this game - us old farts are on the way out - you keep at it - it is a tough game but worth it in the end.

Best of luck in your new endeavour!

B.C.

 

[Ben H]

BC
What part of the Country are you from? What kind of population base do you have around you? Right now we sell Several animals a year direct, some whole, some halves. My town population is about 15,000 and I'm 20 min from Portland. Maybe 100,000? Do you provide bedding somehow to the wooded area? If so what about snow, just keep piling more?
As Mountain Infantry we do our weekend drills outside in the field Jan, Feb and March. We make sure to bring a self inflating matress to sleep on because your body can't produce heat fast enough if you're on bare ground allowing it to suck the heat out of you. Can cows produce heat fast enough? Nature never provides anything for animals and they do allright.

 

[Broke Cowboy]

BC
What part of the Country are you from? What kind of population base do you have around you? Right now we sell Several animals a year direct, some whole, some halves. My town population is about 15,000 and I'm 20 min from Portland. Maybe 100,000? Do you provide bedding somehow to the wooded area? If so what about snow, just keep piling more?
As Mountain Infantry we do our weekend drills outside in the field Jan, Feb and March. We make sure to bring a self inflating matress to sleep on because your body can't produce heat fast enough if you're on bare ground allowing it to suck the heat out of you. Can cows produce heat fast enough? Nature never provides anything for animals and they do allright.

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