Need advice on starting in Cattle

[Lloyd]

Good morning everyone, names Lloyd and I'm new to homesteading and cattle. A little about our situation. We purchased 122 acres in North Carolina in the Piedmont area in 2020, sold 45 acres last year, and paid off everything with the proceeds. So, we are left with 77 acres in total, but logistically I have 50 usable acres for pastures. We have 2 creeks that border about 50% of the property. When I bought the place, it was all clear cut and has been in trees as far as I can research way back into probably the 70's. So, it's all clear cut right now, with rotting pine stumps and mostly overgrowth. We have spent the last two years just taking it easy with the focus being on infrastructure. We dropped a singlewide mobile home, placed a well, septic, I have a shop and tractor yata yata. So now that we are settled in, we would like to focus on starting the farm. We only have chickens at the moment. I have cleared 15 acres so far down to the ground with a brush hog and it looks good enough to put some animals on. Our goals in the future are to have the entire 50 cleared down and turned into pastures. My next step, at the beginning of next year is to set up adequate fencing around the 15 cleared acreage and drop animals in.

Questions:
1.) I need to install fencing around the cleared 15 acres. I want to start with a fair number of goats to keep everything cleared and less mowing. What kind of affordable fencing options would anyone recommend.
2.) With most of the stumps cleared out of the 15 acres, would buying a disc harrow be a good idea to plough the entire place then plant pasture seed?
3.) What type of cattle would be good to start with, I want to start small and build up. I want to use good stock and genetics to begin with, and a good bull.
4.) Our overall goal for homesteading is to raise mainly a small cattle operation for the sole purpose of self-sufficiency given the global insanity, and to feed our family and friends. However, I would like to know given our situation if there is any potential profit to be made by upscaling as we grow in the future by selling stockers or processing beef for sale.

Feel free to ask questions about pertinent information I may have left out to help the community better understand our situation. Thanks!

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Leanin H will have to help you with the goat questions.

Probably more money in processing for sale if you have the ability to do the work yourself.
if you have the grass may be better to buy some stockers rather then run a coupe cows to raise calves. I don't know your area so have no opinion on the stocking or seeding of your ground.

 

[Faster horses]

What Big Muddy Rancher said ^^^

 

[Evans]

There is a guy on utube called just a few acres and he has hundreds of videos. Hopefully you can find the ones that he is talking about profit and what to expect.
I for see farmers markets and direct marketing of your beef and other stuff.
In my area of Alberta what you are trying to do with your amount of acres would be impossible but look how your successful neighboring outfits are doing things .

 

[rancher79]

Plan, I would figure out how to set up rotational grazing, if possible use the wagon wheel method, that way they continually move and eventually end up where they started, giving the land time to rest. But planning is probably the most important thing, because redoing things sucks, but we all learn our lessons

 

[DaneG]

First order of business is buy a good fence energizer, expect to pay $500+. the ones from Australia/NZ are usually good, cyclops is a good USA brand. Good luck!

 

[rancher79]

Goats, not bad, I would do some reading on the breed, they are all different and some can be good at getting out no matter what type of fence or containment you have. Also wether you want dual purpose meat and milk, or just a lawn mower. But with all animals there is challenge. I had one goat that would always get out, put him back look out the window back out, dont even know how.

 

[Lloyd]

Plan, I would figure out how to set up rotational grazing, if possible use the wagon wheel method, that way they continually move and eventually end up where they started, giving the land time to rest. But planning is probably the most important thing, because redoing things sucks, but we all learn our lessons

Yeah great advice, i certainly want to initiate rotational grazing. My neighbors never do it the cattle just wander wherever and the pastures are a mess. Thanks.

 

[Lloyd]

Leanin H will have to help you with the goat questions.

Probably more money in processing for sale if you have the ability to do the work yourself.
if you have the grass may be better to buy some stockers rather then run a coupe cows to raise calves. I don't know your area so have no opinion on the stocking or seeding of your ground.

Thanks Mr. Mudd, never thought about buying stockers. I'll have to read up on this method.

 

[Lloyd]

First order of business is buy a good fence energizer, expect to pay $500+. the ones from Australia/NZ are usually good, cyclops is a good USA brand. Good luck!

Noted! Thanks for the advice, my neighbor knows allot about electric fencing. Old timer good guy. He is going to help me beginning next year to fence our 15 ish acres. I want at least a 4 wire HOT fence, hope that's enough for some starter goats.

 

[Lloyd]

Goats, not bad, I would do some reading on the breed, they are all different and some can be good at getting out no matter what type of fence or containment you have. Also wether you want dual purpose meat and milk, or just a lawn mower. But with all animals there is challenge. I had one goat that would always get out, put him back look out the window back out, dont even know how.

haha yeah i would hate to lose an animal. I'm wanting a larger breed, one that mows down forage well and in the end can be processed and eaten. Going to set up a 4 wire hot fence, hope that's enough wires to keep goats in. Thinking one pretty low to the ground. We are in a unique situation where we have paid off land but need to invest in clearing and turning into pastures. Eventually cows yes, but the journey i suspect will be interesting lol.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Probably the best advice an established cattle producer would give you is: don't start. (That's a joke, but the point is, know what you are getting in to)

First and foremost is going to be your pasture setup, which is going to entail rotational grazing likely as the main focus. But, you have to know and understand what rotational grazing is. It is moving animals from one pasture to the next in succession until you have completed the entire rotation and then repeating it 'again and again' but there is more to it than that and you MUST know what the objective is. There is an objective and it's not blindly rotating the cows from one pasture to the next, I see this all too often. I'm attaching a 'technical note' here that consists of four, very simple rules to follow that virtually guarantee success at pasture management. I've never seen them fail. (sorry for the play on words, you will understand that comment when you see the title). The author of the tech note nearly got accused of plagiarism once when he used the tech note without stating who wrote the note by someone who read the article about 10 years prior to the accusation who had committed the rules to memory and pretty much swore by the rules. The accuser was on the other side of the country from the author. I'll help you, but first look at the tech note and let me know what your questions are. I'll tell you who I am at that point, but this isn't about me. I want to help you, as I have others.

The four never fail rules of grazing

​

Never let seed heads form on plants. This will stunt growth later in the season if it occurs. 1

Never let livestock graze more than 7 continuous days on a pasture. 2

Never graze closer than 3 inches. 3

Never return to a pasture in less than 28 days. 4

Exceptions to the rules- USE CAUTIOUSLY!!

Warm Season Native grasses, especially in the Western half of the US, behave differently than tame grasses. These plants may require the formation of seed heads to survive. Consult a grazing specialist before deciding to graze native warm season grasses, ANYWHERE! Their growth and survival requirements are very different from tame grasses. Although, they do provide some very important benefits when used in conjunction with tame grasses.

Grazing more than 7 continuous days results in animals regrazing plants that have resumed growth after being grazed off. These plants are targeted because they are more tender and succulent. This grazing pattern results in decreased vigor and loss of the most desirable plants in a pasture and spot grazing. However, grazing in a pasture for more than 7 consecutive days will not result in selective grazing if the plants are dormant. This occurs during the winter months and also during drought. Both of these are time periods when extended rest may be desirable over continued rotation.

Grazing closer than three inches can be used, and should be, when broadcast seeding is done for an existing pasture. The short grass promotes better seed to soil contact. Closer than a three inch grazing height is inefficient for cattle and results in reduced intake, which means lower weight gains, which means decreased profit. Grazing an actively growing plant closer than three inches will compromise its regrowth ability and lower its vigor. However, grazing a dormant plant closer than a three inch grazing height will not have near the adverse effect as an actively growing plant. This can be particularly important to know during a drought when forage may be scarce, but, plants are dormant. Don't turn the pasture into a dustbowl. Avoid crown damage and uprooting of plants.

It may be required that livestock are returned to a pasture before 28 days in rare springtime circumstances where the spring flush is particularly vigorous (for cool season grasses) and periods of time during the summer (warm season grasses). This is required to prevent seed head formation, first in the list of general rules, and maintain growth throughout the year instead of getting all of your production at once. Extreme cases may actually require mowing to prevent seed head development due to rapid growth.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Leanin H will have to help you with the goat questions.

Probably more money in processing for sale if you have the ability to do the work yourself.
if you have the grass may be better to buy some stockers rather then run a coupe cows to raise calves. I don't know your area so have no opinion on the stocking or seeding of your ground.

To the point of buying stockers, consider that if you purchase a newly weaned heifer to breed, it will be 2 years before you have any beef to sell IF you have beef to sell. IF you buy a stocker and grow it, you sell the animal and have the difference between the purchase price and the selling price as profit. That could be in as little as six months but the profit is only that difference and not nearly the amount profited from a whole animal without expenses. Now consider a third option. Purchase a pregnant cow with a calf at her side (this is 3 animals for the price of one). In 6 months to a year, sell the calf at the cow's side for the full market value. This should fully cover the original purchase price of the cow (or nearly so) of the cow, calf and fetus the cow was carrying at the time. You now have broken even in a year, have another animal to sell in a year (all profit) or retain this calf to add to your breeding herd along with the cow (which you should have bred by this time giving you a 3rd calf from this cow. This third option will result in the fastest establishment of a breeding herd for yourself and will almost be the fastest way to turn a profit (it will give you the largest profit over the first 5 years) aside from buying stockers. However, your profits will grow slower with stockers vs the pregnant cow with the calf at its side.

 

[Lloyd]

Probably the best advice an established cattle producer would give you is: don't start. (That's a joke, but the point is, know what you are getting in to)

First and foremost is going to be your pasture setup, which is going to entail rotational grazing likely as the main focus. But, you have to know and understand what rotational grazing is. It is moving animals from one pasture to the next in succession until you have completed the entire rotation and then repeating it 'again and again' but there is more to it than that and you MUST know what the objective is. There is an objective and it's not blindly rotating the cows from one pasture to the next, I see this all too often. I'm attaching a 'technical note' here that consists of four, very simple rules to follow that virtually guarantee success at pasture management. I've never seen them fail. (sorry for the play on words, you will understand that comment when you see the title). The author of the tech note nearly got accused of plagiarism once when he used the tech note without stating who wrote the note by someone who read the article about 10 years prior to the accusation who had committed the rules to memory and pretty much swore by the rules. The accuser was on the other side of the country from the author. I'll help you, but first look at the tech note and let me know what your questions are. I'll tell you who I am at that point, but this isn't about me. I want to help you, as I have others.

The four never fail rules of grazing

​

Never let seed heads form on plants. This will stunt growth later in the season if it occurs. 1

Never let livestock graze more than 7 continuous days on a pasture. 2

Never graze closer than 3 inches. 3

Never return to a pasture in less than 28 days. 4

Exceptions to the rules- USE CAUTIOUSLY!!

Warm Season Native grasses, especially in the Western half of the US, behave differently than tame grasses. These plants may require the formation of seed heads to survive. Consult a grazing specialist before deciding to graze native warm season grasses, ANYWHERE! Their growth and survival requirements are very different from tame grasses. Although, they do provide some very important benefits when used in conjunction with tame grasses.

Grazing more than 7 continuous days results in animals regrazing plants that have resumed growth after being grazed off. These plants are targeted because they are more tender and succulent. This grazing pattern results in decreased vigor and loss of the most desirable plants in a pasture and spot grazing. However, grazing in a pasture for more than 7 consecutive days will not result in selective grazing if the plants are dormant. This occurs during the winter months and also during drought. Both of these are time periods when extended rest may be desirable over continued rotation.

Grazing closer than three inches can be used, and should be, when broadcast seeding is done for an existing pasture. The short grass promotes better seed to soil contact. Closer than a three inch grazing height is inefficient for cattle and results in reduced intake, which means lower weight gains, which means decreased profit. Grazing an actively growing plant closer than three inches will compromise its regrowth ability and lower its vigor. However, grazing a dormant plant closer than a three inch grazing height will not have near the adverse effect as an actively growing plant. This can be particularly important to know during a drought when forage may be scarce, but, plants are dormant. Don't turn the pasture into a dustbowl. Avoid crown damage and uprooting of plants.

It may be required that livestock are returned to a pasture before 28 days in rare springtime circumstances where the spring flush is particularly vigorous (for cool season grasses) and periods of time during the summer (warm season grasses). This is required to prevent seed head formation, first in the list of general rules, and maintain growth throughout the year instead of getting all of your production at once. Extreme cases may actually require mowing to prevent seed head development due to rapid growth.

Very grateful for your help and the coaching, this kind of advice is what i've been seeking out! I have read a few books and know a little about rotational grazing but this info is what i will be putting into practice for sure. I have learned a little about homesteading over the last 3 years and I am interested in starting out the right way vs going back and changing things up. So i certainly will be implementing these 4 commandments they have been what I've read in other places before.

At this point i'm very ignorant on grass and pastures, out of the 50 usable space i need to convert to pasture. We only have 15 acres cleared and cut to the ground, im going to let the pine stumps rot out as most are by now. So i don't really have pastures so to speak. My native grass is an invasive one called congo grass out here in the Piedmont region of NC. I read it's not very palatable for cows has a high silica content that cuts the mouth and is very low in nutrition. The other plants that were on it were briars and dogfennel.

So what would someone like me do from here. I'm thinking of buying an old disc plow and just going over the 15 acres as best i can and reseed. I'll have to read up on whats best to seed out here. I don't know much about grass at all, so ill need to read up on that. My neighbor is going to help me put up fencing this year on the 15 or 20 i'll have cleared out. I was thinking of t posts with 4 hot wires or something. I would need to take the 15 ish acres and make a map and plot out areas i want to pattern for rotational grazing. I'm thinking right now of putting 1 cow per 2 acres ( or should it be 3). Anyways i'm all over the place right now. Trying to figure this all out.

 

[Lloyd]

To the point of buying stockers, consider that if you purchase a newly weaned heifer to breed, it will be 2 years before you have any beef to sell IF you have beef to sell. IF you buy a stocker and grow it, you sell the animal and have the difference between the purchase price and the selling price as profit. That could be in as little as six months but the profit is only that difference and not nearly the amount profited from a whole animal without expenses. Now consider a third option. Purchase a pregnant cow with a calf at her side (this is 3 animals for the price of one). In 6 months to a year, sell the calf at the cow's side for the full market value. This should fully cover the original purchase price of the cow (or nearly so) of the cow, calf and fetus the cow was carrying at the time. You now have broken even in a year, have another animal to sell in a year (all profit) or retain this calf to add to your breeding herd along with the cow (which you should have bred by this time giving you a 3rd calf from this cow. This third option will result in the fastest establishment of a breeding herd for yourself and will almost be the fastest way to turn a profit (it will give you the largest profit over the first 5 years) aside from buying stockers. However, your profits will grow slower with stockers vs the pregnant cow with the calf at its side.

I have never been to the stock yard out here in Silver City NC (closest to me and its big). Is it a normal thing for people to sell a pregnant cow calf pair like this. Is it a category that's regularly practiced in cattle sales etc?

 

[webfoot]

I have never been to the stock yard out here in Silver City NC (closest to me and its big). Is it a normal thing for people to sell a pregnant cow calf pair like this. Is it a category that's regularly practiced in cattle sales etc?

I see the 3 in 1 (a cow/calf pair that the cow is bred back) talked about a lot more in other areas. Here you mostly see bred cows or pairs sell. If the calf is old enough for the cow to be bred they will generally split them before they come into the ring.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I see the 3 in 1 (a cow/calf pair that the cow is bred back) talked about a lot more in other areas. Here you mostly see bred cows or pairs sell. If the calf is old enough for the cow to be bred they will generally split them before they come into the ring.

Yes, Probably more a Craigslist thing where someone else doesn't knw what they are doing.
Good in theory if you can make it happen but there is a reason it's being sold that way.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I see the 3 in 1 (a cow/calf pair that the cow is bred back) talked about a lot more in other areas. Here you mostly see bred cows or pairs sell. If the calf is old enough for the cow to be bred they will generally split them before they come into the ring.

True about splitting the calf off, but getting 'just' a bred cow isn't a bad deal in the sense it's a 'twofer'.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Yes, Probably more a Craigslist thing where someone else doesn't knw what they are doing.
Good in theory if you can make it happen but there is a reason it's being sold that way.

In other words. buyer beware. But it's not a given it's a bad deal either.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Very grateful for your help and the coaching, this kind of advice is what i've been seeking out! I have read a few books and know a little about rotational grazing but this info is what i will be putting into practice for sure. I have learned a little about homesteading over the last 3 years and I am interested in starting out the right way vs going back and changing things up. So i certainly will be implementing these 4 commandments they have been what I've read in other places before.

At this point i'm very ignorant on grass and pastures, out of the 50 usable space i need to convert to pasture. We only have 15 acres cleared and cut to the ground, im going to let the pine stumps rot out as most are by now. So i don't really have pastures so to speak. My native grass is an invasive one called congo grass out here in the Piedmont region of NC. I read it's not very palatable for cows has a high silica content that cuts the mouth and is very low in nutrition. The other plants that were on it were briars and dogfennel.

So what would someone like me do from here. I'm thinking of buying an old disc plow and just going over the 15 acres as best i can and reseed. I'll have to read up on whats best to seed out here. I don't know much about grass at all, so ill need to read up on that. My neighbor is going to help me put up fencing this year on the 15 or 20 i'll have cleared out. I was thinking of t posts with 4 hot wires or something. I would need to take the 15 ish acres and make a map and plot out areas i want to pattern for rotational grazing. I'm thinking right now of putting 1 cow per 2 acres ( or should it be 3). Anyways i'm all over the place right now. Trying to figure this all out.

It's a lot to take in. Consider reaching out to the NRCS (Natural Resource Conservation Service) to get a GMP (Grazing Management Plan) developed for your land. They have (should have) all the expertise that is needed to develop a plan for you (with your input) that will address most, if not all, issues that you are aware of and issues that they know will occur that you haven't thought of. Also talk to them about your local Soil and Water Conservation District and see if there are field days that you can attend.

I'll tell you a bit about myself now. I can see you are truly interested in learning and want to do this the right way. Do remember, it's your property and you have to be comfortable whit what goes on and is done on it. For example, someone might tell you that rotating you livestock twice a day with 60 seperate pastures is what you HAVE to do to 'correctly' rotate cattle (in their mind) that might be impossible for you or something that you find completely exausting, or too labor and resource intensive for you. The 'correct' method for yourself might be a 5 pasture rotation system where the animals spend a week grazing a pasture and the next 4 weeks rotating through the other four pastures giving the first pasture 4 days rest (this later scenario is where I try to get everyone I work with to start.

I mentioned the NRCS already. Well, I am an NRCS employee. I'm also a grazing specialist within the NRCS. Actually, I'm the state grazing specialist next door to you, in South Carolina. I'm the author of that tech note I posted and have written over 300 personalized (stopped counting at 250) grazing management plans. I'm new to the south. I was previously in Ohio. But the concepts of grazing that are my expertise are what you need. Specifics about a few things such as congo grass, which doesn't grow in Ohio, is what I'm going to be unfamiliar with.

As for buying the old disc and using it, there could be some value in that. As I just indicated I've got to check on congo grass. However, without knowing what it is, it's hard to say. Speculative treatment would be to spray it to kill it, but it might be an annual?. Don't disc it at the wrong time as you could end up planting its seeds for it. If it's perennial, do I need to take a 'spray, smother, spray' approach to it? I'm on holiday leave for the next couple weeks and will actually have more time to address your issues now but will be harder to reach than if I was working in me office.