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NPN (Urea) vs. Natural Tubs

A

Amo

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
117
Location
Chambers NE
For various reason Im considering supplementing with some lick tubs. Mainly Im slightly short on hay. Hoping to streach what I have using the tubs, plus adding some extra protein. Cake would streach better, but when I price it all out its almost a wash. Other option is of course buying hay. Leaning towards the tubs.

My supplier of choice has a 250# 27% all natural for $131.63 or a 30/10 for $97.38. They are Crystalyx and they take the tubs back. Thats worth something right there. Plus Ive used them before, and know the consumption will be were it should be. Ive always used the NPN ones, cause thats what they have on hand. The all natural ones come form a different plant. So consumption could be different. The other store has a Vitalix 250# tub. The NPN one is higher than the Crystalyx, but their all natural is $112 or $107 depending on which store I go to. Neighbor was buying from store "A". He was having a hard time getting them to eat it. He is doing business with store "B" and seams statisfied. Usually its over consumption, not under! :shock: Vitalyx Im "blessed" with the tubs :( & Crystalyx I have feeder finance.

The nuts and the bolts of the question is Im feeding all roughage....hay. Ive always had the impression that with all forage, the NPN was a detriment. Not a huge detriment, but it took some of the cows energy to utilize the urea. Thus if your grazing crop residue for instance, you were picking up some energy and the NPN product was a better bang for your buck. Had the impression that if you got the NPN for big enough discount, that it really wasn't that big of a deal. Stopped in at different feed store today. They had natural & NPN. He was saying that the rumen makes nitrogen, which I agree. He said that since it makes it anyway your not losing that much energy from not getting and outside energy (grain) to break down the NPN.....or something along them lines. Kinda contrary to what I had always thought.

So, is the last sales pitch anywheres near correct? Ive been told that Im really splitting nose hairs on the urea/hay only issue. Am I? If so Id sure prefer the NPN Crystalyx tubs. If it is a big issue I suppose I should try to get the natural Vitalix ones. They guy I talked to today kinda has me wondering if the urea really isn't a huge deal. Other feedman says it isn't, but he is wanting to push the NPN ones, cause he buys by the semi load gets good prices. I feel he is a pretty honest guy, but still a salesman.
 
I am feeding Smartlic 30/10, I wonder about the NPN issuse as well. I don't feed grain except for a bit to my calves. I used to feed "Big Muddy Bossy Bloomer" a canola meal mixture with salt. I know a fellow who uses a roughage buster type (Urea & biuret) mix on his cows grazing rough winter grass
 
Most nutritionist will 'throw out the urea' and only figure the protein on the natural protein part. How much urea is in the molasses blocks you are considering? I have learned that a little urea won't hurt, but too much will cause the cattle to burn energy to digest the NPN. Keep in mind that urea was first designed for feedlot use where the cattle were fed large amounts of grain so the energy the energy used to digest the NPN didn't bother them.

I'm wondering how they got 27% All-Natural productwithout some urea mixed in it. That seems awfully high for an all-natural product. I have heard that Smart-Lic with Flax is a pretty good molasses lick tub. They all cost to much compared to the price of hay. Have you figured it out....hay vs. molasses tubs? People like the tubs because they are convenient and convenience costs. Also, young cattle, 2 and 3 year olds don't do well with tubs because of their teeth loss. FWIW.
 
Since the feed in all competing companies is quite similar, my scientific reason for preferring MLS tubs over other brands is only because the tubs are made from rubber, and they make nice salt and mineral bunks if you keep them. If you get too many, they can be returned. The deposit is six dollars, but you get the six dollars back upon return. The plastic Vitalix containers are a P in the B, and the steel Crystalyx barrels do not make good bunks for salt and mineral because they rust. They are also heavy and cumbersome to return. The nice rubber MLS tubs stack inside each other for easy handling. MLS tubs are 200 pounds per container, which is also easier to handle than the other products that come 250 pounds per container. This is my story, and I'm sticking to it, and the MLS dealer likes my reasoning. :-)

http://www.mlstubs.com/index.htm
 
The 27 & 30 are natural. The 30/10 is supposed to be like 6% urea & no more than 10%. I agree with a little won't hurt.....that's what my supplier of choice basically says. I know 30 sounds high for all natural. I haven't personally seen a feed tag. Local dealer, so I'm presuming its legit.

I haven't crunched numbers this year. In the past, by the time I pay freight on the hay vs. free delivery of tubs its close to a wash. I agree on convince. Hay is cheaper than in the past. There are several reasons I'm considering tubs, but hay isn't out of the picture. I have some cows that don't eat cake. They lick the tubs.....teeth is kinda a moot point?

I've heard of soybeans & salt. It was generally used as a creep feed from what I was told.

Ya 200# is easier to handle. 250# are usually cheaper per pound. Rubber tubs? Never seen them. Ya, crystalyx don't stack well. He takes emptys back when he comes.....so its no big deal. I don't get a semi load at a time. Crystalyx has the bio barrels. Only 200#, but they disappear eventually....I guess.

Thanks for information.
 
Anyone use the Riomax tubs? They seam to be the new "cool kid" on the block. Garuntee consumption, which is nice. Competition salesman says they don't see how's there enough "cubic feet" to include all that they say is in their product.
 
I've used modified distellers in the past. I've argued the more hay point with the feed man too. He has personal customer data that says otherwise.

Soapweed, where do you get yours at? Looked at their web site. Pretty sure guy in town here sells MLS. They come in yellow non returnable plastic tubs. I like the amaferm if competitively priced. Neighbor has used a lot of them in the past. Said intakes varry big time. From hardly any to way to much. He's considering crystalyx.
 
Amo said:
I've used modified distellers in the past. I've argued the more hay point with the feed man too. He has personal customer data that says otherwise.

Soapweed, where do you get yours at? Looked at their web site. Pretty sure guy in town here sells MLS. They come in yellow non returnable plastic tubs. I like the amaferm if competitively priced. Neighbor has used a lot of them in the past. Said intakes varry big time. From hardly any to way to much. He's considering crystalyx.
Click to expand...

http://pharmcosd.com/feed

GE Associates in Martin, South Dakota is where I get our tubs. Maybe they are Pharmco brand instead, but the tubs say MLS. They are black and made from rubber.
 
Crystalix has the most even consumption and their product is always the same in my findings. Tried some mls tubs this year but they ate more than they should of. We feed the natural 27 when we do need a tub from crystalix. The bio barrel will be gone before the lick part will be. They kind of chew that crappy plywood off first. Cost more than the metal barrels and our dealer is right in town so not a big deal to take barrels back for us.
 
Howdy, I'm new here, but follow the boards a fair bit. Thought I'd chime in here since I've got a little background in the nutrition side especially with range situations.

The single most important thing we can provide cattle is protein. It's been proven, both in university studies and from my experience working with tens of thousands of cows over many winters that protein is THE deal. It's what builds cells and that means creating a healthy population of bugs in the rumen. They can then break down the forage and that (along with bugs) are what really feeds our cows.

A small percentage of NPN is no problem. Nitrogen in that form can be very useful. I've formulated lots of cake that included 2 - 4% of the CP from urea (meaning if the cake was a 32% protein then 4‰ of it was urea and 28 was natural).

The great thing about Nitrogen is that it's not necessarily lost if they get too much in one "meal." Much of it can recycle through the body for longer periods of time. So, I used to have my clients feed cake every second or even third day.

As we looked at tubs with an eye to selling them (because we could make a lot more per ton than we could on cake) we realized that from a purely nutritional standpoint they just didn't have the value. The energy was short lived, like lighting a match compared to starting a fire. Cake didn't supply a bunch of energy either, but it started the engine in the rumen that allowed the cow to grab as much energy from whatever forage was available so she could meet her own needs. However tubs worked when cows couldn't be seen regular like. Bottom line for us was comparing the cost per unit of protein. In almost every case (except where cows were a long way from home so the cost of driving and time were high) good cake, fed regularly but not daily, was a lot cheaper than tubs. And better for the cows. That's a no spin, nothing to gain, internal analysis. Course, everyone loves having a few hundred tubs stacked around in case you need em so you've gotta factor that bonus into the equation.
 
Ya, I got 50 bales of grinding hay. Really didn't want to pay $2XX an hour to grind, get modified ddg, drag feed wagon out etc. Place I stopped at yesterday sells mix 30. Said mix 30, lumix, qlf are now all same company. Maybe still separate companies, but same ownership.

Anyway, mix 30 is $253 a ton. Liquid is handy. I used to spray it on with bale processor to help feed less palatable hay. As stated above, price it out per cost of pound of protein its not that cheap either.....your buying water. With that said, I did call down to Palmer Nebraska. They make stuff like mix 30. I have bought the raw base ingredient, steep from them in the past. $53 a ton f.o.b.
 
You are buying water with liquid feed. It's a carrier just like with dry feed, you have a carrier. What you have to look at is the protein %. A twenty percent protein in a liquid feed or dry feed is still 20% protein
 
I have bought 3 Super B loads of sun cured Alfalfa pellets to stretch my hay. It seems pricey but I feed them in my bunk mixed 4 to1 with corn, I have been taking my calves out to a alkali flat to feed a couple bales of carry over hay and let them graze the rough dry grass. They have some 30/10 Smartlic tubs out there for the day. They are brought home for the night to get water, eat the pellets and lick loose mineral with Bovatec. They seem to be doing great (hard to tell when you seem them every day).
We lost a couple earlier to sickness but have got them past that and then a couple to "Bloat". The one I think got laying bad in the pen and the second one I posted and it seemed to have a hair ball about the size of a Road apple blockage. Better not brag or shirt will happen. lol
 
Don't know about the ownership particulars of Mix 30. LOOMIX is still entirely owned by ADM. With that being said, ADM and QLF have formed a joint venture called Alliance Liquid Feeds. LOOMIX had 4 mills, and QLF has a dozen or so. QLF can now be manufactured in a LOOMIX mill, and vice versa. This JV has allowed LOOMIX into new geographic areas where freight made using it prohibitive financially. Ingredients are being purchased at better prices through the JV as well. I can't speak for others, but my prices have been dropped almost $40/ton compared to last year. My current price is 28 cents/pound. Depending on the size & condition of the cattle, I target consumption between 1-1.5 pounds/head/day. LOOMIX is more nutrient dense than other liquids, is 97% all natural, and will flow and pump at -40°F....that does away with the "you're buying water" argument.

There is a place for tubs...no argument from me on that. I keep a few 20% AN on hand, just in case....IF they have adequate groceries. If feedstuffs are tight, I'd have to go with a Moorman's Roughage Buster product...probably the 80% blocks. But they ain't cheap.
 
Faster horses said:
Remember to figure your ration on a Dry Matter basis. Moisture (water) contains no nutrition.
Click to expand...
That is true, but if you have a hundred pounds of cake that's 20% protein and you have a hundred pounds of 20% protein in liquid then you have exactly the same protein
 
Soapweed....I talked to the guy in town today. The tubs he sells are Form A Feed. MLS manufactures them. Supposedly same product, buy a #1-#2-#3 etc., just put in a different tub so Form A Feed can claim its "their" tub. So yours could very well be MLS or Pharmco manufactured by MLS or who knows. I think Crystalyx makes tubs for others as well. If one plant manufactures tubs for multiple brands it explains why a lot of similarities.

Lumixguy....I don't remember how exactly he worded it. I think he said that they are all together, I think is how he worded it. I know he said QLF & Loomix. The 2 locals stores with Mix 30 are ADM dealers, so I would presume that ADM would "own" Mix 30. When he said that they are all together, I assumed that they were owned by an outfit. Like GM owns Chevrolet & GMC (the federal gov is out now right? LOL) yet they are sold as GMC & Chevy. Joint venture makes sense. He didn't go real indepth on that & I didn't ask. Thanks for the clarification!

Only liquids Ive ever been around is Mix 30, Steep, and a QLF product. I know the mix 30 worked way better in the cold than steep. Im sure Loomix would be very comparable in the cold weather aspect. I like to tip the bales up on end and soak them. The QLF stuff I got was "complete" with vitamins, minerals, rumensin, etc. It was a quite a while back when I was first starting (learning) out. I had no clue what rumensin was or that it was in the QLF product. Thus I soaked the hay trying to make it more palatable. Well thinking the more the better for flavor & extra protein what the heck. Well I had too much rumensin supposedly and it made it bitter. So I try to stay away from a "complete" product for what Im trying to with the junk hay. Supplementation like just spraying on with processor, I really liked Mix 30. Im sure Loomix would be comparable with some differences. Ive never done the lick wheel thing. I think thats more how Loomix is feed?

I suppose alfalfa would be the cheapest if your figuring dry matter/pound of crude protein etc. I bought some once. I didn't think it was real steamy. Some of it was put up a little wet. They rolled it around, licked up the leaves & left the steams. Which they rotted away. No huge thing. Yet if your buying it for protein & filler then you get the protein but not the filler the price per ton goes up because of the waste if you follow my track of thought. Ya, the protein is in the leaves...I get that. You can call the steams a carrier I guess. Just throwing in the steam/waste factor without getting super scientific...it kinda makes me want to lean more towards cake or tubs. I can buy grass hay for $20 a ton less at least...maybe more. Then go with tubs or cubes. The whole "match" theory is interesting to ponder. Just know several years ago, I got scientific about cubes vs tubs. For the price tubs were higher, but not by much. Thing is though if your consumption on a tub is .5# you have to calculate your cake at .5# too. Thats why I like to get the highest percent protein product I can. Guy in town here carries a 14% protein with 5% fat. Says you need energy instead of protein. Which I kinda agree with. Just that with little consumption, your not supplementing much. I still think you need protein. Yet if the cows BCS is respectable, I don't know if I can really justify a lot of extra protein vs just buying some grass hay?

What I really liked for a supplement was feeding modified distellers. I use to feed a TMR to the calves. To keep it feed up, Id throw some DDG in the feed wagon. Not a complete TMR, just DDG. They cleaned it up, it was cheap, and lots of by pass protein. I went back to feeding the calves a grain mix. Don't really feel like getting DDG in just for the cows.
 
ADM dealers that handle liquid don't necessarily need to handle ADM or QLF products. They probably started handling liquid before ADM bought LOOMIX, which was only about 4 years ago. LOOMIX is fed in an open top trough, with no rollers, and has been since 1952. Water or snow just sits on top of the product. If mixed with water, it WILL separate. Troughs can easily be pumped empty and moved with the cattle. That's a major PITA with other liquids and their feeding systems.

I have seen the data from university trials comparing Mix 30 and LOOMIX. Let's just say that Mix 30 may or may not have paid to stifle the results, but the results were stifled, and not by LOOMIX. I know truckers who haul both LOOMIX & Mix 30. They hate to haul Mix 30 when it's cold, as it can freeze their pumps and valves up on their trailers.

I'm surprised you can buy Mix 30 with Rumensin....there is a chance for real problems with the amount of Rumensin ingested when it's in a product fed free choice. Overconsumption is not good. The only product I sell with an additive is IGR in the summer, and even then to get loads in is a big time, major PITA, thanks to our helpful government regulations.

We make a hay treat product that is 50% protein and fortified with a complete vitamin & trace mineral package. 7-10 gallons/bale is about what you want to use. I don't carry it, because I don't treat enough bales to justify getting half a semi load in when I need 300 gallons or so. What I treat bales with is a 50/50 blend of our sweet & bitter range products. It'll run about 18-20% protein, have the complete vitamin & trace mineral package, and be palatable. Works great on any type of feed bales. Again, 7-10 gallons is adequate, and they'll slick up straw, grass, CRP, cane, just like it's candy.
 

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