We're losing too many first calf heifers to the cull list at preg check. I know my region is alot different than most of yours but just looking for some ideas. I don't make it a habit of feeding or supplementing cows. Everything here makes it on grass, hay, salt/mineral, and water (except when market works to feed weaned calves a little extra) but I don't like losing so many of these heifers. What extra attention does this age get on your ranch if any. Maybe the cull list is where they need to be.
Open 1st Calf Heifers
- Thread starter Triple_S
- Start date
PATB
Well-known member
I made a mistake of using a grandson of an ai sire that had showed fetility problems under our management. The daughters I kept back have ended up open. I will be eliminating any descendants from this bull that is still left in the herd. The other challenge has been a yearling bull who did not settle as many animals as I thought he should. He managed to breed 3 out of 14 animals in 45 days.
I would check the bull battery to make sure they are doing jtheir ob and are fertile.
I would check the bull battery to make sure they are doing jtheir ob and are fertile.
Thanks but I don't think its a bull problem as all my bull must pass a Breeding Soundness Exam a couple months prior to breeding season. Of course that doesn't really cover "libido" but I've used several different bulls on first calf heifers over the years with similar results. Some years are better than others is why I'm leaning towards a nutrition problem. But I may be way off.
What % of your 1st calf heifers are coming up open?
What % of your 1st calf heifers are coming up open?
gcreekrch
Well-known member
12 to 15% in pretty tough country.
Either feed better or be satisfied with less milk. A lot of the ones that show up empty are the heavier milking heifers that are still trying to grow also.
Either feed better or be satisfied with less milk. A lot of the ones that show up empty are the heavier milking heifers that are still trying to grow also.
Just a thought for your consideration, your heavy culling of opens while painful is advancing your herd very fast under your management plan. Another way to say this is, you pick your management plan first and then the girls that bring home a good calf within your access to resources or plan - get to keep their jobs. If you are consistent with how you manage the herd the selection criteria will build the herd you want. The tougher the cull the faster you will get there. I know there are bills to pay in the meantime, so its a balancing act. Its just another point of view.
nortexsook
Well-known member
Great point Gomez. Maybe he doesn't have a "problem", but is advancing faster towards his goal than he realizes!
gcreekrch
Well-known member
Gomez said:
Exactly, good point.
Breeding back heifers is the biggest life hurdle most of them will ever have. We have a higher percentage of rebreeds come in open than we do heifer calves. Custom mineral mix, with a proper breeding mineral at least a month prior to breeding, semen test bulls, good health program, and if you can manage body condition without feeding they all help.
Also, I agree with the "too productive - too much milk" statement from earlier in the thread.
Changing the system for a few cows adds the same expense to every cow.
Also, I agree with the "too productive - too much milk" statement from earlier in the thread.
Changing the system for a few cows adds the same expense to every cow.
Are you in fescue country????
I heard alot of herds in that area had 20 to 40% open rate this past year.
Ours run 7 to 10% opens throughout the herd.A friend of mine sorts off his old cows and 1st and 2nd calvers and grains them from calveing till grass.It's a bit of a crutch but with 700# average weaning weights I would'nt argue his motives.He's a very good manager and a model for our area.
If I were in Kentucky or close in that kind of environment I get ahold of Mike Keeney at Keeney Angus he would be of a great help if thats what your faceing.
I heard alot of herds in that area had 20 to 40% open rate this past year.
Ours run 7 to 10% opens throughout the herd.A friend of mine sorts off his old cows and 1st and 2nd calvers and grains them from calveing till grass.It's a bit of a crutch but with 700# average weaning weights I would'nt argue his motives.He's a very good manager and a model for our area.
If I were in Kentucky or close in that kind of environment I get ahold of Mike Keeney at Keeney Angus he would be of a great help if thats what your faceing.
cutterone
Well-known member
What age are they at 1st calving and what breeding?
Clarencen
Well-known member
Read the answers to Redrobins post. That may be part of the answer.
Keeping heifers for replacement has always been somwhat frusterating.
Here, we were most always in a building up mode. forost of the years i was in the cattle business we tried to increase our numbers, and at the same time improve quality. These two things are at odds with each other.
We usually saved about 10% of those for replacement that should not have been.
A heifers needs to be cycling at about 15 months of age to calf in time to stay in your herd, some do not. feed is a part of it. Then we expect a 2yr. old to raise a good calf and come back with a calf the next year, sometimes that is a lot to expect of them under the conditions we operate from.
Mother nature relied on survival of the fitist. Maybe what is occuring, is natural culling. Either use it as an advantage or change it. I guess we usually try to change it.
Keeping heifers for replacement has always been somwhat frusterating.
Here, we were most always in a building up mode. forost of the years i was in the cattle business we tried to increase our numbers, and at the same time improve quality. These two things are at odds with each other.
We usually saved about 10% of those for replacement that should not have been.
A heifers needs to be cycling at about 15 months of age to calf in time to stay in your herd, some do not. feed is a part of it. Then we expect a 2yr. old to raise a good calf and come back with a calf the next year, sometimes that is a lot to expect of them under the conditions we operate from.
Mother nature relied on survival of the fitist. Maybe what is occuring, is natural culling. Either use it as an advantage or change it. I guess we usually try to change it.
Cedarcreek
Well-known member
gcreekrch said:
I agree too. I breed my heifers for 30 days, have about 15% open, this year was better. By the harsh culling I am working toward a more fertile cow herd that will breed up in 45 days and have a more uniform calf crop. I just keep a few more heifers to make up for increased opens. Dollars out pretty good since those open heifers sell real good in early fall. If you supplement them as yearlings they will come in open at a higher rate as cows. I want a cow herd that breeds on time without a lot of help.
Gomez - I hope you're right. A few years ago I realized I wasn't going the direction I wanted to go hence the brutal culling. However I do try to make sure that I'm not asking too much of my cattle.
Denny - I am in fescue country. With the exception of some winter wheat and volunteer orchardgrass all my cattle eat is fescue. Most of the hay is fescue too. I bale some oat baleage for the replacements and feeders but the cow herd gets fescue hay.
Cutterone - I calve mid February for 90 days. I am trying to get the guts to cut this to 60 but haven't gotten the courage yet. Bulls go in mid May and I don't keep any heifers born in May so at breeding they are anywhere from 13-15 months. I realize this could be considered young but I do make sure they have the wieght on them before breeding. I've always figured if they were to young they wouldn't breed as long as they were big enough. This goes back to the "am I asking too much" question.
We only calve once a year so they have to breed the first breeding season. No pushing them back to the fall herd.
Clarencen - I think you hit the nail on the head. I've been building up since I started. Sometimes its hard to cull the marginal heifer calf because you want the calf numbers. Its a mental thing. We know better but......
Cedercreek - The open heifers don't bother me. They can go as 7-8cwt and fetch good money. I don't think I'm covering my cost though sending a open 1st calver to the sale though.
And thanks for all the response. Its nice to have a place with experienced folks to offer opinions. I lack a lot of experience but i'm getting there.
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Denny - I am in fescue country. With the exception of some winter wheat and volunteer orchardgrass all my cattle eat is fescue. Most of the hay is fescue too. I bale some oat baleage for the replacements and feeders but the cow herd gets fescue hay.
Cutterone - I calve mid February for 90 days. I am trying to get the guts to cut this to 60 but haven't gotten the courage yet. Bulls go in mid May and I don't keep any heifers born in May so at breeding they are anywhere from 13-15 months. I realize this could be considered young but I do make sure they have the wieght on them before breeding. I've always figured if they were to young they wouldn't breed as long as they were big enough. This goes back to the "am I asking too much" question.
We only calve once a year so they have to breed the first breeding season. No pushing them back to the fall herd.
Clarencen - I think you hit the nail on the head. I've been building up since I started. Sometimes its hard to cull the marginal heifer calf because you want the calf numbers. Its a mental thing. We know better but......
Cedercreek - The open heifers don't bother me. They can go as 7-8cwt and fetch good money. I don't think I'm covering my cost though sending a open 1st calver to the sale though.
And thanks for all the response. Its nice to have a place with experienced folks to offer opinions. I lack a lot of experience but i'm getting there.
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Northern Rancher
Well-known member
This might be not the accepted stand but if that open first calver will bring you less at the sale than the heifer calf you have to keep to replace her breed her again especially if she has had a tough summer. At the very worst she'll be grass fat and worth more to ship in the early summer next year. I've kept a few to put embryos in and they've never stubbed their toe again and have had long productive lives. We run on fescue here but It's not the endophyte infested stuff that causes trouble with cattle I think that's mostly down more to the south.
scout
Well-known member
if it makes you feel better my breed back on my hfrs was 45 percent and they calved in 10 days, i supplemente them with grain weaned the calves at ninety days. I only had 9 head though they were purchased hfrs there calves weren't great either . the calves only avg four hundred pounds in nov. but i rolled them into the fall herd the four that were open were the heaviest milkers and had the best calves . come to the conclusion I can pay a couple hundred more for three year olds have heavier calves and not worry about the breed back till i get my cow note paid down when i will start retaining my own hfrs. I sold most of my hfrs this year as replacements to a neighbor. what is every ones opinion on keeping fall born hfrs back as replacements breeding them at 18 months for spring calves.
Justin
Well-known member
scout said:
i don't have any fall calvers anymore, but when i did, i tried to keep all those fall born heifer calves. i had really good luck with getting them bred up and bred back. those fall born heifer calves are some of my best cows today. they have raised a good calf every year and 90% calve in the first calve in the first 21 days. if it wasn't for a lack of space i would have kept the fall calving cows just for that reason. for me it just seemed that giving those heifer calves a few more months to mature set them on the right track to turning in to really good cows. IMO
A
Anonymous
Guest
Triple_S said:
I really think you should follow Denny's advice-- and of several others of the ones that post on Keeneys Corner :
http://kcorner.bigboardlive.com/forum.htm
Mike (Keeney) and some of the other posters probably have more experience with fescue grazing-- along with some of the top maternal breeders in the world like Larry Leonard, Sam Wylie, and Mr. Falloon of New Zealand (of just a few posting there) have years of experience with the genetics, maternal cattle and cattle that can perform on both grass and high supplements....
I'm starting to wonder if in fescue country if it isn't wiser to go ahead and let the heifers mature even till they are 2 yrs old and breed them. You can do it pretty cheap as far as feed is concerned but that extra pasture sure costs something. Changing to permanent teeth growing and lactating is a heavy nutritional load for cows that only get washy grass. I guess this isn't advice since I still calve my heifers at 2 but the older operators here used to calve at 3 and I think they had longer lasting cows and I would assume a better breed back.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
I don't think the fescue we graze is the same that causes trouble in parts of the states-never heard of it being a problem yet.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Northern Rancher said:
Yep-- I agree... I have some hayfields/pastures that are fescue, orchardgrass, alsike clover, brome, alfalfa, and native grasses-- seeded that way so the differing plants could take advantage of the differing soils/moisture-- and no problems at all like I here coming from the south folks...