Really Efficient Angus Bull

[WVGenetics]

BW/Ratio 79/95; 205d WW/Ratio 694/111; YW/Ratio 1153/107

Here is bull I think will make moderate, easy keeping females that will last. This calf is out of a son of the Schurrtop Ranch's home raised sire, 2063, who sired the most efficient sire group of heifers at Leo McDonnell's in Montana against other proven RFI efficient bulls. He is Lot 132 in the Wardensville Bull Test Sale on March 24th and is super efficient and really meaty (1.22 REA/CWT). A larger version of the picture can be found in the photo gallery under my member profile. He is out of a 6 year old Schurrtop Supreme cow. His dam has a BWR 5/100, WWR 5/111, YR 4/107, IMF 4/102, and REA 4/100. Individual performance was 3.63/97 ADG/Ratio and with an RFI of -3.56. The sale catalog with more detailed info can be found at http://www.wvbeef.org/wbt/wbt.html.
Anybody have any suggestions on him?

 

[lazy ace]

I have looked at the catalog several times and it seems like I have more and more questions.

What was your average fat thickness on your bulls?

How does the actual data from RFI relate to some of the genetic tests for feed efficiency?

How does creep feeding affect bulls in your research.

How does your research affect cattle in terms of going to grass or roughage. (do cattle that perform well in a test facility have the same results in the pasture)

thanks and have a cold one

lazy ace

 

[leanin' H]

We have a bull test out here in Utah too. While the test shows how a bull will do in a feedlot situation and thus pass that same production on to his calves, test bulls have a few too many flaws for me to purchase one. They are almost at finsh condition and tend to really fall off when turned out to breed. I am concerned with their reproductive health as they are so fat. And they seem to have a higher rate of leg and foot troubles. All of the above have happened to several different outfits in this area who used to buy bulls from the test in Utah. I guess it's a fine line between showing a bulls efficiency in a feedlot and having a bull ready and willing to chase cattle for a dry, hot breeding season. It hasn't worked well out in this dryer country.

 

[WVGenetics]

I have looked at the catalog several times and it seems like I have more and more questions.

What was your average fat thickness on your bulls?

How does the actual data from RFI relate to some of the genetic tests for feed efficiency?

How does creep feeding affect bulls in your research.

How does your research affect cattle in terms of going to grass or roughage. (do cattle that perform well in a test facility have the same results in the pasture)

The average fat thickness on this set of bulls is shown on the ultrasound data link in the website and I believe it was 0.30 inches. The bull pictured was at 0.25 in. The genetic tests for feed efficiency right now are not as good as the companies selling them would like you to believe. They are based on and validated in populations of cattle that are not representative of what is used in the US, but they have made a great deal of improvement from the original tests that were marketed. Still, I believe that the test can only account for about 15-30% of the variation in RFI where RFI itself is 40% heritable, meaning selecting for actual data is much more effective than using genetic tests. Creep feeding should not affect efficiency a great deal because a long pretest adaptation period is used to make adjustments for differences in management. What it can do is make those bulls more advanced in their growth curve where, in theory, they should mature earlier, lay down more fat, and ultimately be less efficient. Finally, the correlation between RFI in a yearling test and animals measured again at 4 years of age is greater than 0.90. It should be very similar on forage as in this test because the diet is high percentage forage but much of that type of research is being conducted now. Earlier research conducted at WVU showed that with stocker cattle on grass, those sired by negative RFI bulls were able to continue to gain weight when forage was either of low quality or became limiting in quantity where those sired by positive bulls were not able to gain weight during these periods.

 

[WVGenetics]

We have a bull test out here in Utah too. While the test shows how a bull will do in a feedlot situation and thus pass that same production on to his calves, test bulls have a few too many flaws for me to purchase one. They are almost at finsh condition and tend to really fall off when turned out to breed. I am concerned with their reproductive health as they are so fat. And they seem to have a higher rate of leg and foot troubles. All of the above have happened to several different outfits in this area who used to buy bulls from the test in Utah. I guess it's a fine line between showing a bulls efficiency in a feedlot and having a bull ready and willing to chase cattle for a dry, hot breeding season. It hasn't worked well out in this dryer country.

I agree that for far too long many bull test stations have developed bulls in a manner that was detrimental to their reproductive maturity, health, and overall longevity. However, I challenge you to look closely at this program, the ration being fed, and the data presented. I am not saying that these bulls will work in your environment, but they are not your typical bull test product. They are much leaner and more ready to work and maintain or even gain weight during their first breeding season. There will not be flaws hidden by overfed, fat bulls here.

 

[lazy ace]

You certainly do have some mud around your parts. I know you don't clip and wash bulls. I have heard from some other breeders that if you spray some mineral oil on those mud tags that it will soak up and loosen them up.

It may be worth a shot next time they go through the chute.

have a good one

lazy ace

 

[Mike]

We have a bull test out here in Utah too. While the test shows how a bull will do in a feedlot situation and thus pass that same production on to his calves, test bulls have a few too many flaws for me to purchase one. They are almost at finsh condition and tend to really fall off when turned out to breed. I am concerned with their reproductive health as they are so fat. And they seem to have a higher rate of leg and foot troubles. All of the above have happened to several different outfits in this area who used to buy bulls from the test in Utah. I guess it's a fine line between showing a bulls efficiency in a feedlot and having a bull ready and willing to chase cattle for a dry, hot breeding season. It hasn't worked well out in this dryer country.

The bulls on these type tests are Yearlings and should breed a limited number of cows the first year.

You have a whole year to adapt these animals to your environment and forage.

That said, these bulls are usually the best of the best and should be worth much more than your average bulls.

When all is said and done, the average buyer wants a gobby fat bull and will pay more dollars for them.

I've tested bulls for many years at the Auburn Bull Test and am amazed at what the average buyer buys....................The FAT ones. They don't care about Feed Efficiency or Rate of Gain and the average buyer has no idea what ultrasound means................................

 

[Dylan Biggs]

The RFI data is intriguing, the thing that jumps out at me about this bull physically is how very straight his hind leg is. From the photo it apeears he has no set to his leg at all. Might just be the photo though.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

We have a bull test out here in Utah too. While the test shows how a bull will do in a feedlot situation and thus pass that same production on to his calves, test bulls have a few too many flaws for me to purchase one. They are almost at finsh condition and tend to really fall off when turned out to breed. I am concerned with their reproductive health as they are so fat. And they seem to have a higher rate of leg and foot troubles. All of the above have happened to several different outfits in this area who used to buy bulls from the test in Utah. I guess it's a fine line between showing a bulls efficiency in a feedlot and having a bull ready and willing to chase cattle for a dry, hot breeding season. It hasn't worked well out in this dryer country.

Good points LH.
Was killing some of cattle yesterday and had an interesting discussion with the inspector on the very high rate of condemed livers and kidneys that are disposed of with the high energy grain rations. If bulls have been fed heavy enough to appear even close to being fat enough to kil,l being naturally lean as bulls, then the probability is very high that the liver and kidneys on those bulls are damaged. No wonder a lot of these bulls break down fairly rapidly.

 

[WVGenetics]

The RFI data is intriguing, the thing that jumps out at me about this bull physically is how very straight his hind leg is. From the photo it apeears he has no set to his leg at all. Might just be the photo though.

For sure the picture makes him look that way, and I will admit he is a touch straight made off those hind legs. He wouldn't look that way in the photo if wasn't at least a little straight. He still has some set to that hock though and moves really well. I think the thing that makes him good in addition to the RFI is the cow family behind him and his unique pedigree. You could use him on anything.

 

[lazy ace]

Finally, the correlation between RFI in a yearling test and animals measured again at 4 years of age is greater than 0.90. It should be very similar on forage as in this test because the diet is greater than 85% forage but much of that type of research is being conducted now.

Can you go in to a few details on this statement. Was this research done on females? If so what was the comparison difference in weaning weights, breed back and body score conditions. What about feet and lameness scoring?

How does this relate to maintenance of energy requirements and the epd. The Red Angus breed uses the ME Epd and I was curious if any of the RFI data was figured into that formula?

Sorry to take things in a different direction away from your bull sale.

How big of an area are your bulls developed in?

have a cold one

lazy ace

 

[WVGenetics]

Lazy ace,

Not a problem, hope some other people get something out of this.

Yep, this research was done in females and other than being different based on RFI, everything was similar between those that were efficient and those that weren't. The real issue is that we don't yet know what the long term selection effects for RFI are, although research at WVU has shown that RFI is negatively correlated with age at puberty in yearling heifers, meaning more efficient, negative RFI, heifers reached puberty when they were older as compared to less efficient heifers. At the same time though there were efficient heifers that reached puberty early and inefficient heifers that didn't even reach puberty at all. It really just comes down to managing heifers and challenging them reproductively in their first breeding season. Fertility is the most economically important trait and the best way to change it is genetically, not with feed or management.

Ideally, reduced RFI should be related to a decrease in maintenance requirements, since the calculation of RFI takes into account maintenance and gain. That was the problem with F:G. It only accounted for gain efficiency. Maintenance becomes pretty important for the cow/calf man's bottom line, since 65% of a mature cows feed requirements are for maintenance and that figure increases 30% with lactation. We spend more money to keep our cows alive than we ever do to actually get anything out of them. I'm not sure if this is figured into the Red Angus EPD, but RFI data is used in the new Angus RADG EPD, which is expressed a gain measure and not feed intake.

The bulls are developed in lots that are 40 feet x 120 feet and there will be 15-18 yearling bulls per lot.

 

[lazy ace]

What type of mineral program do you use?

 

[WVGenetics]

What type of mineral program do you use?

Its a custom program that I believe is incorporated into the ration in the supplement pellet that is mixed in with the ground hay. The nutritionist at WVU and the local coop customized it for the program and the soil types most of these bulls will be going on to.

 

[WVGenetics]

Picture of one of the pens in the bull development facility. Usually 15-18 bulls per pen. The GrowSafe feed bunks are at the upper end of the lots under roof.