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Registered Angus ??

randiliana

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
946
Location
Saskatchewan, Canada
This cow is Registered. The sire of the calf is a SOLID black 1/2 registered angus, 1/2 simmental bull. Wonder where that white on the face came from??
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This calf (who IS horned) is out of a solid black commercial angus cow. I know SHE carries the horn AND red gene, but she was bred to a Registered angus bull. Wonder how the horns and white spot on the head got there.
64calf.jpg


These aren't the only "wonder where that came from" calves we had this year. And they were all out of one registered parent...
 
Yep, the white on the first calf is a throw back to Simmental.

On the second picture, just because the black commercial cow is black, doesn't mean she doesn't have some other genetics in there too. (Which is
obviously true because you mentioned she carried the horn gene AND
the red gene...which a purebred angus cow would not do.)

Shoot, we had a solid red calf out of a Hereford cow once.

When they are commercial cattle, ANYTHING is possible.

Now with our cattle, we breed straight black angus (we know
they are because we have bred straight angus since 1979)
to straight black angus bulls and we get all black angus calves.
No white, no funny stuff.

Not to say we couldn't get a red calf, but we haven't yet.
All it would take is for there to be a red gene in both parents.
 
Faster horses said:
Yep, the white on the first calf is a throw back to Simmental.

On the second picture, just because the black commercial cow is black, doesn't mean she doesn't have some other genetics in there too. (Which is
obviously true because you mentioned she carried the horn gene AND
the red gene...which a purebred angus cow would not do.)

Shoot, we had a solid red calf out of a Hereford cow once.

When they are commercial cattle, ANYTHING is possible.

Now with our cattle, we breed straight black angus (we know
they are because we have bred straight angus since 1979)
to straight black angus bulls and we get all black angus calves.
No white, no funny stuff.

Not to say we couldn't get a red calf, but we haven't yet.
All it would take is for there to be a red gene in both parents.

Definitely blame the white partly on the simmi bull. But it is recessive so the cow had to have something to do with it too.

The other cow, no big surprise, but again it is recessive so THAT BULL also had something in the woodpile.

We run commercial, but genetics really interest me and these 2 calves plus a couple others piqued my interest.
 
rainie said:
I agree with Kola. Nice to get a DNA done on your bull. The horns shouldn't be there.

No way of DNAing the bull. First off the red calf came out of a cow that was bred in the community pasture. Bulls are SUPPOSED to be registered Black Angus to go in there. But there were 5 of them in our field so it would be hard to tell which bull is daddy.
 
Sure is funny how some jump to the registered parent as the culprit when the generic unknown pedigree of the other parent is the far more likely cause.

Solid black Simm cross bull will throw lots of mixed colors. He is solid black, but his genes are not.

Horn genes are random, usually the polled factor will be dominant, but not 100% of the time. Black is usually dominant but not always.
 
randiliana said:
rainie said:
I agree with Kola. Nice to get a DNA done on your bull. The horns shouldn't be there.

No way of DNAing the bull. First off the red calf came out of a cow that was bred in the community pasture. Bulls are SUPPOSED to be registered Black Angus to go in there. But there were 5 of them in our field so it would be hard to tell which bull is daddy.
Well I'll tell you if your running on a community pasture that there can be your answer,we ran on a community pasture one summer and that was enough,not only did we not know who the calves were being sired from we also didn't know what,the pasture was supposed to be running Shorthorn bulls only yet we were having Simmental and Char calves...that was a big mistake we made and never did it again
 
Mrs.Greg said:
randiliana said:
rainie said:
I agree with Kola. Nice to get a DNA done on your bull. The horns shouldn't be there.

No way of DNAing the bull. First off the red calf came out of a cow that was bred in the community pasture. Bulls are SUPPOSED to be registered Black Angus to go in there. But there were 5 of them in our field so it would be hard to tell which bull is daddy.
Well I'll tell you if your running on a community pasture that there can be your answer,we ran on a community pasture one summer and that was enough,not only did we not know who the calves were being sired from we also didn't know what,the pasture was supposed to be running Shorthorn bulls only yet we were having Simmental and Char calves...that was a big mistake we made and never did it again

Not too worried about that here. Everyone running cattle out there knows each other, and most of us are pretty honest. Anyways, if we get the odd calf that isn't "right" they can just go to town when we sell in the fall. It is not the end of the world. The only bulls run down there are Hereford, Angus and Char. So no different than any other pasture where you run up against other breeds. As for not knowing which calf is from which bull, well, firstly we don't have enough pasture to keep those cows at home with our own bull, and secondly they are mostly our poorer end cows, or late calvers. Stuff that might go to a sale in the fall.
 
I synched and AI'd some cows one year, always clean up with a hereford bull. The following spring, had been calving the AI'd ones for a week, and a baldy calf shows up, and the cow calved at 282 days.
Moral:
Just 'cause they calve on their due date, doesn't mean nothing except they calved on there due date.
 
Jason said:
Sure is funny how some jump to the registered parent as the culprit when the generic unknown pedigree of the other parent is the far more likely cause.

Solid black Simm cross bull will throw lots of mixed colors. He is solid black, but his genes are not.

Horn genes are random, usually the polled factor will be dominant, but not 100% of the time. Black is usually dominant but not always.

Well, first you have to understand how genes work. They are either Recessive or Dominant. Recessive genes REQUIRE that there be 2 copies for the trait to be expressed. In the case of Dominant genes if there is 1 copy the trait WILL be expressed. Each parent can only pass on ONE gene for any one trait.

So in the case of Solid/Spotted, Solid is Dominant. 1 copy of solid will give you a solid colored animal. Spotted is Recessive, You need 2 copies of the spotted gene to get a spotted animal. Which I believe is what the calf is displaying.

In the case of the whiteface markings or blaze face markings, both are incompletely dominant. Which means that they will be expressed to a greater degree if the animal has 2 copies of the gene or to a lesser degree if the animal has 1 copy of the gene. This is how the Hereford type markings work. If you have 2 copies you will have more white (in the case of a pure hereford) if you have 1 copy you will have less white (in the case of a baldy). There are other genes at work that detirmine whether the animal gets a brockle face (which is also dominant) and also restricting genes that detirmine exactly how much white an animal has on it, using hereford again, this could cause an animal to have a lineback, or to have no feather neck.

So, if you have a solid colored animal, it is possible that the animal carries the spotting gene (same idea as the red gene), but to get a spotted calf out of 2 solid colored animals BOTH parents HAVE to carry the spotted gene. The blaze face or white face gene cannot be there if the animal is solid colored because they are dominant and would be expressed if they were there.

To top this all off, it is possible that a genetic mutation could have happened, but it is very unlikely, as we had 2 cows (mother/daughter) that when bred to this bull (that we know carries the spotting gene) had calves with white marks on their faces. The odds of both having mutations is pretty slim.

As for the horn gene, unless you are running brahman influenced animals, it is RECESSIVE, not dominant, and NOT random. You have to have 2 copies of the horn gene to get horns. Black is always dominant. Regardless of weather the animal has 1 or 2 copies of the black gene, it will be black. Red is recessive, you MUST have 2 copies of red to get a red colored animal. 1 copy of black, and one of red = BLACK.
 
randiliana said:
Mrs.Greg said:
randiliana said:
No way of DNAing the bull. First off the red calf came out of a cow that was bred in the community pasture. Bulls are SUPPOSED to be registered Black Angus to go in there. But there were 5 of them in our field so it would be hard to tell which bull is daddy.
Well I'll tell you if your running on a community pasture that there can be your answer,we ran on a community pasture one summer and that was enough,not only did we not know who the calves were being sired from we also didn't know what,the pasture was supposed to be running Shorthorn bulls only yet we were having Simmental and Char calves...that was a big mistake we made and never did it again

Not too worried about that here. Everyone running cattle out there knows each other, and most of us are pretty honest. Anyways, if we get the odd calf that isn't "right" they can just go to town when we sell in the fall. It is not the end of the world. The only bulls run down there are Hereford, Angus and Char. So no different than any other pasture where you run up against other breeds. As for not knowing which calf is from which bull, well, firstly we don't have enough pasture to keep those cows at home with our own bull, and secondly they are mostly our poorer end cows, or late calvers. Stuff that might go to a sale in the fall.
We didn't have enough pasture either that year,we didn't know any of these guys running the community pasture and there were lots of separate pastures that bordered each other...hence we believe the bulls fence crawling reason.Sure wasn't our thing.
 
Mrs.Greg said:
We didn't have enough pasture either that year,we didn't know any of these guys running the community pasture and there were lots of separate pastures that bordered each other...hence we believe the bulls fence crawling reason.Sure wasn't our thing.

Were you running on a provincial or federal pasture? Ours go to the provincial pasture, and we know the riders and manager as well. The pastures are also quite large(we are talking sections here) and that helps keep the bulls on the right side of the fence. Although they certainly don't always stay :wink: :mad: So I don't think that was the problem. I figure that either someone didn't put in a registered bull, or that there was something hiding in the woodpile there.
 
Well if your bull is 1/2 simmental and 1/2 angus you will surely get some off colored calves just because they are black does'nt mean they are ANGUS.Use a mutt bull expect mutt calves very simple.
 
Throw in a wild color factor gene simmentals are famous for and you can throw out the textbook recessive / dominant gene theory.

I fully understand how genes work, when you are dealing with purebred and known genetics.

Dealing with crossbred mutts is as Denny has already astutely observed.

Go back in the pedigree of the Angus bull, if there is a shot of Holts Emulous 60 or Harts Wild Turkey, I will agree he isn't pure. A few breeders have tried to take shortcuts, those cattle get weeded out pretty fast.
 
Jason said:
Throw in a wild color factor gene simmentals are famous for and you can throw out the textbook recessive / dominant gene theory.

I fully understand how genes work, when you are dealing with purebred and known genetics.

Dealing with crossbred mutts is as Denny has already astutely observed.

Go back in the pedigree of the Angus bull, if there is a shot of Holts Emulous 60 or Harts Wild Turkey, I will agree he isn't pure. A few breeders have tried to take shortcuts, those cattle get weeded out pretty fast.

Whatever, genes work like genes. Recessive stays recessive, and dominant stays dominant. Just that when you get more genes in the mix there is a bigger chance of something recessive showing up.

As for the mutt bull, I have said numerous times, that I really am not too worried about it. A few white hairs on the calf's face aren't going to make a difference come sale time. Plus, the bull is a lot better bull than a LOT of Purebreds that I have seen. I would rather have a good crossbred bull than a purebred that should have been a steer.....
 
Jason said:
Throw in a wild color factor gene simmentals are famous for and you can throw out the textbook recessive / dominant gene theory.

I fully understand how genes work, when you are dealing with purebred and known genetics.

Dealing with crossbred mutts is as Denny has already astutely observed.

Go back in the pedigree of the Angus bull, if there is a shot of Holts Emulous 60 or Harts Wild Turkey, I will agree he isn't pure. A few breeders have tried to take shortcuts, those cattle get weeded out pretty fast.

Seeing you fully understand how genes work Jason maybe you could explain to us the why some Angus such as 12883650 WK Dateline 7270 are carriers of a wild-type color gene similar to carriers of the red gene yet different. These are Black Angus that carry this allele who are supposedely not carrying the red allele and can produce red progeny.

I am especially curious about your claim of a "wild color factor gene" that you say Simmentals are supposed to be famous for.
 
randiliana said:
Whatever, genes work like genes. Recessive stays recessive, and dominant stays dominant. Just that when you get more genes in the mix there is a bigger chance of something recessive showing up.

An earthworm has roughly the same number of genes as humans...obviously our genes work a little different! :shock:

Jason, obviously they don't have enough Black Angus is those black Simi bulls. :lol: :lol:
 

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