Registered Cattle issues

[Hay Feeder]

I should put this on the other site for purebred issues. But in the end the actuall buyers of bulls are the ranchers that use them. Reciently in the Angus breed the association has been adding costs to register the cattle.
What is the breeder and or the buyer willing to pay for if any (or obsorb)
Right now if a Angus breeder does the full meal deal to register one these are some of the costs the Association suggests. $27 for a yearling, $3.00 for weights to be added, semen $25, signing fees another $25 or more, breeding fees using CDIR or Tech $10, Ultra Sound $15.00, and now for some are required a Am test at $22.00. another 5 for transfer
Total cost to register an animal right at $130.00 for everything. However some of this can be cut out but for a breeder to do it all this is the cost.
Some are going as far as adding Gene Star test for at another 50 to 70 dollars per head.
The past 10 years of selling Angus bulls and composite bulls not very many people care about any paper work other than a semen test thats th e only paper they want. and birth weight and weaning weights questions

Right now I am not reisterting any bull till he is sold if the buyer wants that
in the past I was adding $30 for papers now its going to be more IF YOU WANT them.

We are seeing many breeders getting pretty well soured on AI companys
bulls. Some of us think we are just as good to develop our own herd sire that are developed for our customers rather than what semen retail company pushes us to do.
I am open to all of your thoughts postive or negitive on this post. Will not hurt my feelings eitherway.

My question what is the rancher really wants and what is he willing to pay for. Not what a big shot setting behind a desk thinks I should do

 

[kolanuraven]

With my personal little herd here on the home place......

I don't register till I get a good idea of they are gonna meet my standard, those that do will get registered.

Anyone and everyone who buys from me gets a reg paper, whether they want it or not. They can throw it out if they want to.

I've have lots of people not want the paper, then after the first calves come or want to re-sell their bull...call me up and THEN want papers. Such a pain in the azz at that point. So, you get'em, want them or not.

I don't have to do any AI work as I have access to all the bulls under collection with our farm, so my situation is unique in that aspect so I don't have to deal with all the AI paperwork . Doesn't seem to be a big issue anymore.

Now I've had some people who did not seem to understand that it was the same ' juice' in the straw or from the bull. They insisted on having a cow AI bred, not natural mind you, to the very bull standing in front of them. I think they just like the idea of saying their critter was AI bred. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I just go get the actual bull and throw him in with the girls. :wink: :wink:

 

[badroute]

I guess when I buy a bull I want him out of registered parents, but I really dont need an official piece of paper as long as I have all the other info already on the bull. I do make sure I get papers on at least on bull a year so I can continue to receive that Angus newspaper. As far as the semen companies go I agree with you 100%. Looking through the AI catalogs it is safe to say that most bulls advertised are frankly not very good.

 

[efb]

Suprisingly, I have come to the same conclusion over the past 6 months and am planning on making some changes. After paying A.I. tech., semen and A.I. certificate I have $125 per live calf in A.I. costs. Then you get into registration, record submission, ultrasound can easily be another $50. I am through with that game. I am going to produce the best breeding stock I can for the least cost I can and continue to sell affordable bulls.

 

[Denny]

I'm half tempted to cut all of my bulls once you figure in all the advertiseing cost's and auctioneer cost sale catalog with what these guys are willing to pay for bulls around here.I'm money ahead to sell them as fat steers at 85 cents.

 

[per]

I'll speak as a guy that buys bulls. We run a lean opperation here as far as staff goes so AIing doesn't fit because it takes time that I am not willing to pay for. Half of our battery comes out of pure stock that I have walked or rode through the herds, inspected feet bags etc and the conditions they were raisined in. Some are papered and some give the option. I always decline. If the bull comes home and for some reason he doesn't fit the next year he would be sold without papers if I declined them in the first place. The second half of my battery comes from my own herd and they are not papered either. Paper is not that useful to a commercial herd. Not to say that pedegree isn't, but you can follow that without the official paper. Many larger herds around here keep a portion of their own bulls. There are times when some very good bulls can be traded within these herds as well.

 

[Grassfarmer]

As a breeder running both purebred and commercial cows as well as being the breed secretary of a numerically small breed I have strong opinions on this one. Proper tracking and recording of pedigrees is crucially important to the survival and development of breeds. I absolutely have no time for this selling purebreds "either with or without paper" - it is a dangerous practice to get into. In the case of our own breed it almost led to it's disappearance in the past when members quit registering but continued breeding and selling their cattle.
There is a campaign going on in Canada at the moment to basically declare pedigrees redundant - the argument is that performance and EPDs are all that you need. The proponents are the large scale bull sellers basing their programs largely on crossbred bulls. I think they couldn't be more wrong, this is short term thinking at it's very worst. The quickest way to regress our cattle genetics a hundred years is to stop registering stock and keep mongrels instead.

That said I can understand the frustration of purebred breeders having to pay high fees to register their cattle with an association. Too often the breed Associations get ideas above their station and start building marble towers for offices and charging members to cover their lavish spending. There has got to be balance and it is up to members to challenge their breed associations if they think fees are too high. Selling purebred animals that are unregistered is a fast track to nowhere in my opinion. You have got to think that down the road if the purebred breeder wants to disperse his herd but quit registering at some point in the past he no longer has a purebred herd to disperse - just commercials and the price discount he might receive may be greater than the fees he would have paid.

By the way our breed charges $20 to register purebreds under a year old and $10 to transfer and I'm the unpaid secretary. We want to encourage as many registrations as possible and feel low charges are the way to do it.

 

[Big Swede]

For the last 10 years 90% of the bulls I have purchased have been purebred Angus commercial bulls. My seedstock supplier spends about $8000 to $10,000 when they purchase a registered bull and they use these bulls extensively for a couple years AI and then wait to see what kind of females they get from these matings. If they like what they get they will continue using this bull but if they don't, they end up with some very expensive hamburger. No kidding, I've seen them get rid of some very expensive bulls if the females don't meet their expectations.

They are very critical when they select their purchases so that doesn't happen very often. They run about 750 cows and I go to their ranch every fall and pick a group of half brothers right off the cow in October before they ship. The cost is $10 cwt. over steer price plus $50 per head for the privledge of picking before they leave the ranch. Last fall 740# bulls cost me right at $1000 a head. Any bulls not picked off the ranch go back to their seedstock supplier where they are developed and marketed as commercial bulls for anywhere $1800 to $2400.

I use my bulls for 3 years and with any luck will bring as much as I paid for them earlier. So when I figure the depreciation on my bull purchases all I really have into them is room and board for 3 years. None of these bulls are registered but the cows don't seem to mind.

I used to try to buy the best bulls at production sales but $6000 buys just as many and just as good of bulls as $24,000 used to. As times get tougher and breakevens grow higher I think you will see more of this all the time.

I know Soapweed uses this same stategy except he sells his yearling bulls in the fall after one season. Makes economic sense and saves feeding and caring for pain in the butt bulls year round.

 

[Anonymous]

Many years ago- when much of this country was still open range or pastures had not been crossfenced like they are now, so that many producers ran their cattle in common-- each producer was expected to furnish enough bulls to cover the amount of cows he had running in this common pasture-- but because some tried to cut corners and throw out anything for a bull-- the grazing associations came up with rules that required all bulls be registered...
Usually they specified either Hereford or Angus ( and in some areas allowed Shorthorn)...They never specified bloodlines or even producers- just that they were registered and came from a registered seedstock provider- altho they could be called on the carpet if they didn't meet members specs...

I think that is the reason so many still follow the practice...And with so many of the breeds now finding genetic defects that are being traced/identified back to certain bloodlines (sometimes generations back)- I'd think that piece of paper and knowing the ancestory would be even more important to the commercial breeder...

 

[Doug Thorson]

And with so many of the breeds now finding genetic defects that are being traced/identified back to certain bloodlines (sometimes generations back)- I'd think that piece of paper and knowing the ancestory would be even more important to the commercial breeder...

I spent an hour on the phone yeaterday with the Hereford Assn. talking about testing procedures for epilepsy. After it ended I threw the phone and yelled SELL THE @#$*&
After an hour I cooled off enough to decide not to sell, but some procedures work only for feedlot cattle. Nothing serious, just $31 extra on every animal.

 

[Big Swede]

Just because a bull is not registered doesn't mean ancestry is not known. I definately don't have any Precision in my herd. I'm glad I didn't chase the carcass fad like some did.

I read something recently that all the bulls in the Angus breed that were real high in carcass trait EPD's were the lowest on a fertility EPD. That was interesting because I never liked the looks of those cattle, and I know you have said the same Old Timer. If cows don't get bred every year it doesn't matter how good of a carcass their calf might have been.