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Veterinarians and why you don't use them

M

milkmaid

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May 25, 2006
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WA today...
Interesting way to start a post, isn't it?

So I'm taking a herd production medicine class and one of the things we've been discussing recently is why producers (beef, dairy, feedlot, hobby, large scale, etc) are using veterinarians less than in the past. And of course- the class has also been discussing how veterinarians have to approach the changing market in order to still work as veterinarians. I thought that Ranchers/CT would be a great place to pose my questions, since there's a lot of folks on here who either don't use a vet, or use one after consulting Ranchers/CT. :lol:

Tell me... why do you come here with your veterinary questions? no available veterinarian? incompetent veterinarian? cost? quicker? better answers? variety of responses? second opinion? better explanations with the answers?

What would your veterinarian have to do for you to feel it's worth your while to call him/her with your questions?

There's some discussion in the veterinary world about charging regular clients a flat fee per head (eg $1/cow/month) and they get A, B, and C veterinary services provided for their herd (eg providing vaccinations, preg checks, consultation). Think of it as a Herd Health Program you'd sign up for and you can talk to your veterinarian as needed. Some veterinarians have implemented this, and both they and their clients like it. From your perspective... does this type of arrangement interest you? why or why not?

The other concept that's been talked about extensively in the veterinary world is consultation charges. For instance, feedlots, swine operations, large dairies, usually have a consultant on staff. Not much need for a veterinarian to do procedures as most people are perfectly capable of dehorning, castrating, etc. Instead, veterinarians are giving advice on decreasing incidence of DOAs, mastitis, acidosis, etc or are called in to solve "wrecks." Lawyers, accountants, etc charge consultation fees; veterinarians are starting to follow the other professions and not give away free advice, esp when advice/information makes up the majority of the work they're doing.

How do board members feel about paying for consultation? how would you decide whether something warrants consultation, and how much you'd be willing to pay for it? how would you decide who you're willing to consult with?

There was a study done recently where they concluded veterinarians wanted to give their clients more advice on improving the health/management of their herd, and ranchers wanted to talk to their veterinarians more about how to improve the health of their herd... but neither was happening. Do you folks agree that you'd like to talk to your vet more, or are you happy with the way things are right now?

I've heard quite a bit from the veterinary side. What I'm interested in right now is the rancher/farmer side of the equation. I want to hear your thoughts. Opinions, constructive criticism, vents, advice, etc all welcomed. :P Thanks.
 
You gave us lots of fodder to ruminate on. :D

We live 60 miles from the nearest vet clinic. Most of the services used were Breeding soundness exams on bulls in the spring and pregnancy testing in the fall.We seem to have very little demand for C sections in our herd and calve later on the grass so little scour problems. I research what vaccines we needed to use and actually came up with a better combination then what the vet was recommending. I also feed a medicated starter ration in the fall that need a prescription from the vet. This fall since I was using a different Vet I had to make contact with the Company Vet to explain to my new vet why the script was formulated the way it was.
We also us a vet to castrate stud colts, we used to do them with some friends but less experienced help and I think the colts take it better being drugged then thrown down and tied.
Very seldom have to take an animal to the clinic. Our new vet doesn't have a large animal clinic so that might cause a few problems in the future but we will deal with that problem if it ever happens. :D
 
We tend not to use the vet much for most of the same reasons as BMR.
Smaller problems don't get vetrinary attention unless the animal happens to be handy at preg checking time. After generations of being 50 miles removed from the closest vet we have learned to do most of what needs to be done ourselves.
I would hazard a guess to say that vets are being used less these days because the rates they charge have far outpaced the value of the animal. Which is why we learned to do this procedure ourselves, although thankfully we seldom need to practice these anymore.
 
Yeah- Around here much of the Vets job is bangs vaccinations, preg testing, and testing bulls-- and their small animal trade... When you combine them it keeps the vets pretty busy- and they make a pretty good income...
Many have commented that they are happy giving advice and have folks do their own work because they just don't have the time to do much more...And it seems like during calving time IF/when you need a C-section you can't find one... :wink:

Many of the Vets do sell a line of medicines and equipment- which I will buy from them if their prices are within reason (even if a little more than I can order it in for from Western Ranch or Valley Vet- altho I like to buy locally on everything) -- and consider that mark up they make for those medicines to be equivalent to any "consulting" they do for me....
 
Our vets are as great a bunch of people and vets as you'd want to meet! They are 70 miles away however, which is the only downside. But they have treated us like gold on horses and cattle. I buy my vaccine through them even though i could get it elsewhere cheaper. My rationalization is that they are always willing to answer a question over the phone and return my calls, even after hours. Paying them for vaccine and such is more than worth it to me for that service. I have offered to pay them for thier time on consultations over the phone but they won't take a dime. I have several vets 40 miles away but would rather go to RMLAC everytime. Just took 3 heifers for bangs shots and tags last week. The distance to great service is shorter than it seems. :wink:

The vets that are closer specialize in small animals and 1 doesnt even have facailities for large animals. He will do ranch calls for preg checking, bull tests and emergency calls, but i would rather use folks who specialize in big stuff. The other outfit that's closer lost my business when i took a dog in and there was a lady in there with a 6 foot long snake draped across 5 chairs! :shock: Anybody that works on snakes can count me out!!!! :???:

To me it's like every other part of my busy life. I patronize a business because they offer what i need and they care enough about me to know who i am and earn my dollar bills. From buying bulls to a salebarn or a steakhouse or my vet! If folks arent decent, friendly, honest and helpful, i find somewhere else to shop. My vets are happy to help me in emergencys, mineral programs, feeding, vaccination and herd health. I really think they are as good as they come. And they didnt pay me to say that either. :lol:
 
have to use my vet to bangs test so we use him to preg test at the same time, Then again he can trich test bulls so we semen at the same time. Then he can bangs vaccinate the hiefer calves, pluse he draws blood from horses for coggins tests so he used for most things that require Sate paper work.I do use him on breech birth when my are just dosn't seem long enough usually a head that back...
 
An old rancher I knew asked his vet why every time he brought a cow to him, she died. The vet replied, "because you won't bring one to me if she isn't going to die! Lots of truth to it. Guess you knew that you are just wondering why...........good question :? . I actually think modern cowmen use a vet more than they did 20 years ago.
 
There are several very competent and caring veterinarians in this area. At different times, we have utilized the services of all of them, and they are much appreciated members of the local communities. Sometimes we do need to comtemplate any given situation, and balance the benefit versus the cost. Just lately, even though I knew it to be a gamble, over $200 and a a sixty mile trip to the vet proved to be an exercise in futility. I don't hold the vet responsible, though, because chances were quite slim at the very get-go. We need our local veterinarians, and I thank them for being available when called upon.
 
Plenty of good vets here as well and our outfit has a vet that we see and consult with regularly as well the Vet College at the U of C is always out in the community helping out and doing practical research and experience. It has been many years since a c section was needed here. Most of our acute procedures have been minimized by nutrition and genetic selection.

I do however tune into the conversations regarding medication etc. They are quite interesting and usually educational.
 
We love our vets.... All of them.. First of all they try and teach us, so we are less depended on them so we can humanily handle a sitiation..But sometimes we need our vets and welcome them.....
 
We have a multi-vet practice here and believe it depends which vet you get and their willingness or lack-there-of on certain issues. We sell commercial producers breeding stock from our cattle herd and also raise show pigs. Many vets in Iowa traditionally manage/treat commercial swine herds so we are not the norm in our area. Since we gestate outside in group housing, our practices are also very different which creates different animal health/disease issues. Many of the partners are great to work with, but when we have come across situations where we require veterinarian advice we sometimes get responses like "Draxin is too expensive to give pigs right now" (when they were giving away iso-weans). Another vet while pregging has even asked "How old is this cow" before he gives his preg status (we later found out that he was willing to call an early term pregnancy on a cow "open" because she was old and we might as well get rid of her).

When I deal with a vet, I want a professional veterinarian opinion on animal care or veterinarian procedure......not assistance in deciding whether a procedure is "worth it" for my operation. It is also surprising how when one asks a vet " what are my options".........they always leave out one or two that are provided in a second phone call to a different veterinarian. It is nice to always get a second opinion.

Another time we went in to get swine vaccines and were told they don't have the type I was requesting. When insisting that we had purchased it from their location before, the staff snidely asked "who set this program up for you" like it was dreamed up one night over a case of beer by some half-azzed show pig jocks. I politely stated that her veterinarians recommended it to me. When finally able to speak with the vet, we were told that they no longer carry what we previously used and now they carry Product X and we might as well use that. We farrow twice a year and don't use much quantity but it seemed like what would work best for us always happened to be what was in stock on the shelf.

The competency of most veterinarians (especially the ones I have dealt with over the years) is seldom the case in this area.......it has more to do with the relationships and social interactions that occur over time.
 
It's pretty hard to imagine anyone dependent upon their livestock for a living NOT wanting to work with a Veterinarian!

Maybe that's because i can recall when it was really hard to find one in a pretty large area, like between the Missouri River and the Black Hills!! I was VERY young back then, so could be off a little in the area without one, but doubt is far off either.

We are fortunate to have a pair of them about thirty miles away. Both ranch raised and we knew their families. They have been great to deal with. Their access to the state Animal Diagnostic Lab. has come in handy on occasion. Their practice is nearly exclusively cattle and horses, and they have a large territory, so get LOTS of experience, which is a plus.

We are getting more into a time (IMO) where we are going to really need a Vet partner to be credible producers of food animals. AND with the value of cattle pretty good, even currently with some drop in price, it just doesn't make sense (neither business wise, or for the humane treatment aspects) to not have a 'family' Vet. They do list each individual animal treated by name, thus I consider them our 'family' Vets.

Re. them being available when we need them, I know they work way too hard and I don't resent that they cannot 'jump when we whistle'! They do the best they can for us and trust our crew and their expertise in most situations, so we rarely need them for an emergency, mostly a rare C-section or a very rare horse injury.

I sure do hope your class leaders are emphasizing the benefits of people raising animals for human consumption to consult with Veterinarians.

mrj
 
We work pretty closely with our vet on the preventative side. We are fortunate to have several very good ones within an hour radius. We use ours in a consultative manner more than anything and purchase all of our vaccines through the clinic. By working together ahead of time, we save a lot of working together, reacting to things.
 
RSL said:
We work pretty closely with our vet on the preventative side. We are fortunate to have several very good ones within an hour radius. We use ours in a consultative manner more than anything and purchase all of our vaccines through the clinic. By working together ahead of time, we save a lot of working together, reacting to things.
Click to expand...

This has been my approach - - - the Vet I've used since 1971 is slowing down and has teamed up with a younger one for the large animal issues.
 
I use veterinary services on a herd health basis. Also for some vaccinations, semen evaluations and preg checks. They are handy for consultations etc. I do buy my vaccines and wormers through him to cultivate the relationship. He is 60 miles away and great to work with.
 
So those of you who use your veterinarian for herd health, do you pay on a yearly per head basis, or pay a farm call + hourly rate, or...? What would you prefer? I asked a fellow I work for and he just shrugged, said cattlemen usually just accept whatever they're given as they don't have much say in the matter. If you could choose though, what would work better in your operation?

How about consultation charges? What rate would you consider a fair/reasonable fee? The CT folks suggested $25/10 minute phone call. How do the rest of you feel about that?

What topics do you think your veterinarian doesn't know enough about or you'd like your veterinarian to know more about? Some of the CT folks said nutrition was important. Anything else?

Here's the CT discussion on the same topic for those who are curious.
http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=81759
 
RSL said:
We work pretty closely with our vet on the preventative side. We are fortunate to have several very good ones within an hour radius. We use ours in a consultative manner more than anything and purchase all of our vaccines through the clinic. By working together ahead of time, we save a lot of working together, reacting to things.
Click to expand...

Exactly! Anytime you start packing drugs, taking 'heroic' measures, pouring on the feed for 'last 30 days' you are reacting---much better to be proactive. Biggest single negative factor is 'hollow belly'---proper nutrition, immunization program, minerals, bull selection---and wrecks kinda disapear.

That being said, we're blessed with several excellent vets, all with ranch backgrounds----and a couple dopes whose pickups i rarely see anymore.
 

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