Yikes!

[PPRM]

So I am at a Horse Expo this Spring. A cousin runs into me and starts asking about a Hackamore a guy is selling at a booth. It is the only product he is selling, complete with the video stuff, he went all out. It isn't a standard hackamore. I really hadn't paid attention to it, but a few friends said it was basically a Hackamore with an Easy Stop incorporated in it.

My reply to her was I hadn't paid attention as my wole goal was to basically have a horse that I didn't need any headgear on. Now, I don't ride wih no headgear, my point is in my approach a broke horse is one that you really aren't on thier head at all.

Fast Forward to yesterday, first time I had seen her since then. We are at a funeral. Mind you, lots of family so we have been to lots of funerals. Death is not a big dramatic deal in our family....

I am in the next to back row. She comes in and kinda whaps me on the top of the head with the program. I am thinking this is in good natured fun. Then she starts talking and the funeral is about to start. She informs me they bought the hackamore and it has worked well for them. I just kinda turn and say "Good"....My wife turns and says "Well, most of Pats horses are pasture ornaments right now so he doesn't need a new bit"...The Cousin goes on to talk about how it has changed her 4 year old. like it is going from manual steering to Power Steering..

I really hadn't paid too much mind, but she was gone after the funeral and I didn't get another chance to talk to her.....I woke up and remembered, her new Husband made a comment at the Expo when I said I try to make a horse you don't nede headgear on....he said "That's why those cowboys have he really big spur rowels that are so sharp." At that point, I may have made a face my wife scolds me for. I didn't go into it with hem at that point cause I have learned many people are ignorant because they want to understand stuff a certain way and I am not going to change it, so why bother...

I just realized she might be mad at my opinion......Dang Horse people are the thinnest skinned folks around in my estimation....If my opinion didn't matter, 'Why ask?' If my opinion mattered so much, "Why Ask?" LOL...

Easy Stops are a thing there's a lot of opinions on, mostly I think they are viewed negatively. I had an old man that taught me a bunch who would use them. It was the only headgeqar on a pretty well finished horse and he was super light with it. I don't trust myself enough to be that light, so I have never used one. Kinda like extreme long shanked bits with high ports. I respect the guys that can use them right. I want to be real light, but I can't guarentee it, so I stay away from those and use a lot of time making the horse light with less severe gear.....


Anyways, I woke up thinking about this and wanted to air it out...Thanks for giving me the platform to do so. I need to contact her and make sure she realizes I meant no offense, I was just stating my opinion.....

Horse people...... LOL...

BTW, the wife just wondered why I was up and says my cousin didn't have a cranky look on her face at all. HSe had turned to talk to her, I hadn't.....Soooooo...never Mind, LOL,


PPRM

 

[Soapweed]

Thanks for venting. It is sure easy to offend some people, even without trying.

As my old friend once said, "There have always been people without any common sense, but they used to weed themselves out. Now there are a lot of people with no common sense, but they do have money, and there lies the problem."

I'm not sure if that pertained, but hopefully it does. :wink:

 

[L.E. Stevens]

Could be a slight case of "tunnel vision" too. Some folks only see what they want to and anything outside that tunnel is offensive to them. It contradicts what they assume to be correct and therefore it does not have validity. The unfortunate part of this is that they hinder their opportunity to learn. A boy can learn a whole lot more by keepin his ears open & his mouth shut. :wink:

 

[Jinglebob]

I rode along yesterday with my neighbor and friend, to our local young horse trainer. He does wonderful things and it's almost like a miracle, whaty he gets done with these ypoung horses. My friend has a colt there and I had, had my stallion there for a week or so this spring.

He showed us again, what he does with these young horses and they are mostly done with their basic training when he gets on their backs. As he said, "Once you can do all this stuff on the ground, then it's no problem for them when you get on their backs."

As we were talking I asked what he was using on their heads when he went to riding them. He told me he just uses a rope halter. We discussed this and came to the conclusion, that using a rope halter or a bosal or hackamore is about the same thing. He's found he's gotten better results doing it this way rather than a ring snaffle or D ring snaffle. He tolds us he thinks it's because, you can't force it and the halter or hackamore makes you take more time and get it right.

I was very happy to hear him say this, as all of my horse that were started in a bosal or hackamore, seem to end up with a nicer handle than the ones started in the snaffle.

And this is not to say that a horse can't be started in a snaffle. If it's done right.

I think there are gpeople out there who could start one in a barbwire mouthpiece bit, and get along fine.

Again, it's not the bit or hackamore or halter, it's the hands.

JMHO.

 

[CattleRMe]

All in the hands is the key. Good point Jinglebob.

 

[Faster horses]

Tom Wagoner, the horsman that we hold in such high esteem, started all his colts for years in a homemade mechanical hackamore. Many reading this will turn up their nose at this. Tom knew how it was to fit the horse and he was a master with it.

He has since changed to a snaffle bit or hackamore to start colts. The reason is that the women in his family are barrel racers and he said he couldn't get enough bend in the body with the mechanical hackamore. Worked fine for what he needed, but he needed a bit more for their horses. Being open-minded he was willing to change.

I love watching him with a bosal. The one he uses when starting colts is
very soft with a lot of bend. It will almost come off their head if you are leading them. It never leaves a mark on their face, not on top of their nose or under their chin. Balance is everything when using a bosal properly. So there are bosals and there are bosals, just like anything else. It is my understanding that you don't want to use a bosal with a wire cable running through it.

I have thought that bosals were almost a lost art, so I'm happy to see Jinglebob uses them on his horses and is happy with the results.

PPRM, I think I understand what you are saying. I had a good friend who was/is a barrel racer. She is a great hand with a horse. She is friends with an older barrel racer named Squeak Huber. (I think that is the right name, Squeak is darn sure the first name and Huber just kind of goes with it in my mind...so hope I am correct with both names). Anyway, Squeak was living in Florida and comes up to Montana to give a clinic. She uses an Easy-Stop on her barrell horses. Out of the whole clinic, the
only person that was able to use the Easy Stop was my friend because she was the ONLY one that didn't hang on too it too long. Most people will not release it quick enough and it really can cause a lot of problems.

So again, anything can work IN THE RIGHT HANDS. But an Easy Stop is definitely NOT something for the general public. I think that is why you don't see them very much.

 

[L.E. Stevens]

DEL

 

[PPRM]

Like I said, it was a combination Hackamore and Easy stop....And like I said, I don't feel I have the talent to use Long Shanked bits or Easy Stops. I admire those that do. I am generally light handed, buit ride a pickup much more than anything else. So I worry about losing the feel or getting in a bad spot and causing more harm than good.


PPRM

 

[Brad S]

pprm

its good to be considerate of your horse and your own habits. I too have disdain for all the war bridle variations that are really a poor substitute for training and horsemanship. I would rather rake a horse than ride in a war bridle.

Is an easy stop one of those deals that provides leverage against the jaw?

I'm not real negative about a mechanical hackamore on a finished horse. If you don't know about someone's hands, I give them a mechanical hackamore with a braided curb strap.

 

[PPRM]

Brad,

An Easy stop is leverage against the underside oof the jaw.

I have seen a horseshoer use a war bridle halter setup to get a horses attention. Problem was the horse never was really taught, so we get in a situation where we have a guy with a time constraint needing something a bit severe to maintian a safe work area.. I don't blame the horsshoer either in hat he is putting life andlimb on the line to deal with a critter that has never been taught any manners.

By the way, the shoer I saw use it on someone elses horse, just got the horses attention. He used as little as it took, so I am not saying it was too harsh, just unfortunate it had to come to that.....

My belief is that lightness comes from the earliest training. Get a horse to move its feet and learn to look for cues from you, then go to he halter. At the halter, use as little as it takes to get the desired move you want. And then work on getting more with less pressure. Get to where you are determining the pressure with light pulls from your fingers so the horse is deciding he can get away fom that by moving. And make these short sessions so he isn't being drilled. He is young and it needs to stay fresh....

I spend a lot of time with a halter on at a horses shoulder(I work from both sides). I am simply trying to get him to give his nose with the lightest pressure on the lead rope. This is the foundation for all bit work in my book. And the results have been good. The goal is that it doesn't take much to get a reaction from a horse......


LOL.....Diatribe over...LOL

Thanks for the feedback,


PPRM

 

[Faster horses]

PPRM, I really appreciate where you are coming from. You are
considering the horse and that's the basis for nice things to come back
to you.

Your last post mentioning the horse shoer reminded me of the time this so-called-trainer wanted to work with the feet on a two-year old. He put a lip chain (I think that is what it is called) above the front teeth, under
the nose and that is how he restrained the horse. There is suposedly
some nerves there that cause the horse to stand still; but that deal got
real UGLY before it was over. I went home sick to my stomach and glad
that wasn't our horse.

So much of what goes on with horses isn't teaching them, it is MASHING them into something. There are a lot of ways to mash a horse. I've seen
trainers mash a horse into backing up. They weren't taught to back, they were MADE to back up.

Have you ever noticed that Horse Trainers and Horse Shoers don't have to have any creditials? They can just hang out a sign and say HORSE TRAINER or HORSE SHOER. (Oh, and CONTRACTOR...I forgot about that one. If some people can't do anything else, they can be a contractor.)

 

[Jinglebob]

Have you ever noticed that Horse Trainers and Horse Shoers don't have to have any creditials? They can just hang out a sign and say HORSE TRAINER or HORSE SHOER. (Oh, and CONTRACTOR...I forgot about that one. If some people can't do anything else, they can be a contractor.)

Also "cowboys" and horse raisers and those who think they know alot about cows and horses. :wink:

 

[Faster horses]

Perhaps I should have said, "Horse Trainer for hire" or "Horse Shoer for hire" meaning they can say they can do this whether they can or not.
There is no test to pass, no certificate, that type of thing.

 

[PPRM]

In Oregon you have to have a contractors license to be a contractor.....But they can go shady and under the radar for a little bit at the end of thier business before everyone catches on.....

I guess another way of putting it is I want a horse comfortable enough that life is going to be good that I can ride it with a halter if need be....

I was at the Ride the West in Spokane....A lot of clinicians, some stuff I wasn't too agreeable with. Anyway, there was a mounted drill team of maybe 8 girls around 10-12 years old. they rode those horses all over the place with just the leather collars. I thought to myself "Those are the most broke horses in this whole place." And those horses are living a dream life......I also felt a lot of people there should be talking to those girls...Oh, yeah, my Dad bought this horse from such and such and i just love it!!!!! Instead they will go to tons of clinics and try to start a two year old without knowing any feel for a horse...

Yikes is right, my soapbaox is a big un, LOL

PPRM