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Advice especially for SH.

SJ: "When I said game check I was refering to counting game. My mistake I will be more specific next time."

Fair enough!


SJ: "Call it what you want we were, we have been talking about JJ you know it and I know it."

The statement that was made was that RY refused to work with any private piliot other than LB. That's what I was talking about. You know it and I know it.


"The cave dwellers you talk about don't live in Butte County but whatever."

I never used the term "cave dwellers", I said "CAVE HILL dwellers" (ie those who live in the cave hills of Harding Co.). Got it?

What was that about "twist and spin" with the best?

You just proved it again.


"You are right he did and still does I think use Gary tannant as far as whether Simon flys our area don't know. I would think it would be Butte and maybe the southern part of Harding County."

I'll take that as your admission that the statement regarding RY refusing to work with another pilot other than LB was untrue. Thank you!

RY's area includes the northern tier of Butte Co.


SJ: "I don't believe you could ever find yourself wrong so I believe you are pretty safe."

Oh contrare! I was accused of that one other time and I did a search on "I was wrong". Guess who stated they were wrong more than anyone else on ranchers.net at that time? I did!

Does that mean that I was wrong more than anyone else? Nope! Just that I was willing to admit it when I was wrong. Another thing to consider is the volume of information I posted at that time.


SJ: "I don't know what you are saying when you claim they came clean on the forum. Evidently you feel they haven't been truthful."

No, I don't think they have been less than truthful. I just don't think they were willing to acknowlege that an increase in game violations would result from CO's not being allowed to enter private land without permission. I was impressed with their willingness to acknowledge our position while presenting their own.

I am as concerned about private property rights as anyone else that owns private property. I simply think wildlife law enforcement needs to be exempt under certain conditions to enforce wildlife laws.


SJ: "How many violations are landowner related?"

I have not seen a breakdown of violations between landowner and nonlandowner.

From my personal evaluations of game violations I'd say landowner game violations are, ON A PERCENTAG BASIS, equal to non landowner game violations.


Now a question you haven't answered, where can I obtain a list of the landowners who have joined the lockout?

Frankly, I don't believe ALL OF THE acreages are legitimate.


~SH~
 
MRJ you talk about God and how you know him. What i want to know is what Gods got to say about youn and sh killing his beavers just because they ate the trees He made for them .
 
SH thankyou for admitting we were talking about the northern part of Harding County as far as pilots.

As far as a list don't have one. Whether you believe it or not don't care. The number is probably low rather than high.

I find it unbelievable that asking permission to enter land would cause hunters and landowners to become criminals.

My land is closed and anyone who trespasses without permission will be prosecuted if caught. That is that.
 
smalltime said:
MRJ you talk about God and how you know him. What i want to know is what Gods got to say about youn and sh killing his beavers just because they ate the trees He made for them .
Click to expand...

smalltime, are you criticizing God for giving man the ability and knowledge enabling him to manage beaver when they create too many problems for man?

BTW, that was not an easy decision. Since I do not know where you live of how much you know about this section of the Great American Desert we call home, I will tell a little about our reasoning and decision to eliminate some beaver. We have three intermittent flow creeks running through our ranch. It requires about 25 acres to run a cow for a year. We have been in severe drought for the past three to four years. Prior to that, we had several far above average precipitation years. The beaver population increased dramatically, as did the tree cut by them.

It is very difficult to get trees to grow in this part of west central SD. They do grow naturally on some riparian areas. We are very dependent on those trees and shrubs for winter shelter for our cattle. SH, as part of his job, counted the beaver cut trees along about a half mile of the creek (which never ran at all for the past three years until about three weeks ago when it ran maybe five feet deep for a day), finding several hundred had been cut by the beaver.

We believe we did the right thing, and there is no shortage of beaver in western SD.

MRJ
 
MRJ--smalltime, are you criticizing God for giving man the ability and knowledge enabling him to manage beaver when they create too many problems for man?


I just wish it wasn't in the hands of a few to manage and the many who want wildlife, as long as it isn't in their back yard and they don't have to deal with it on a day to day basis and no cost to them other than what they want to give when and if they want and they still retain their right to privacy.
 
SJ said:
MRJ--smalltime, are you criticizing God for giving man the ability and knowledge enabling him to manage beaver when they create too many problems for man?


I just wish it wasn't in the hands of a few to manage and the many who want wildlife, as long as it isn't in their back yard and they don't have to deal with it on a day to day basis and no cost to them other than what they want to give when and if they want and they still retain their right to privacy.
Click to expand...

I can find considerable fault with how wildlife is managed in SD, but the program of helping ranchers to deal with problem animals is one of the better things they do, IMO, yet you seemed critical of it. Why is that, when eliminating a few beaver many miles from your neighborhood is the problem in question? I'm willing to give praise for the good work along with complaint about what isn't so good.

MRJ
 
SJ: "SH thankyou for admitting we were talking about the northern part of Harding County as far as pilots."

Your still spinning.

The statement was, "RY refused to work with any other private pilot other than LB".

There was no discussion of area.

You are doing damage control for an incorrect statement after the fact.


SJ: "As far as a list don't have one."

Then how would you know how many acres have been closed to hunting. Someone has to know.

How do I obtain a list of names to back the acreage claim?


SJ: "I find it unbelievable that asking permission to enter land would cause hunters and landowners to become criminals."

That statement implies that "ALL" hunters and landowners would break game laws. Nobody ever said that. Larry and Larry admitted that it would result in an increase in game violations but they never implied that it would be all hunters either.

You said Larry and Larry did a good job presenting your position? Well, if they did a good job why do you have a problem believing them when they admit that an increase in game violations would occur as a result?



~SH~
 
I don't have a problem believing them.

I have a list of acres not names from different areas. I f you want the names let your fingers do the walking. If you don't believe it so be it.


Never said ALL, keep spinning.
 
I have beaver in my backyard.I allso have water and subirrigated alfalfa and grass because of the dam.Pretty good trade off i figure in a drouth situation.I don't see how yopu get critisizing God out of what i wrote but ifyou think that go ahead.
 
LB: "He also sets himself up as an authority on subjects he knows nothing about and I can give you a list if you want

I would sure love to see"a list" and I think a lot of others would also.You issued the challenge,now step up to the plate!
 
Smalltime.....

What gives the wolves a right to kill and eat beaver just because they are cutting the trees they love to urinate on?
 
SH says: LB: "He also sets himself up as an authority on subjects he knows nothing about and I can give you a list if you want."
By all means, show everyone here what I have stated that is incorrect.
Watch this..............

Juan, I don't know if you read the posts where SH told SJ and me what the majority of landowners in Harding County think or not, but since both SJ and I are life-long members of this area, we have a much better grasp of what folks out here are concerned about on any given issue than SH does. I don't know if the man has ever even set foot in our county, at least I've never seen him here and he dang sure hasn't taken any survey to know what our neighbors think about anything. He's swallowed what John Cooper fed him hook, line, and sinker and spreads it as gospel. Which it most definitely is not!

SH also sets himself up as an authority on the events leading up to the arrest and subsequent trial of Jerry Janvrin, one of the permitted pilots for the local predator control district. Again, all he knows about the whole sordid affair is what he has heard from his boss and his cronies at GF&P. He wasn't at the trial, he has never read the transcripts, he has never spoken to the Harding County Sheriff, the Harding County states attorney, any of the directors of the Multi-District Predator Control Board, or any of the folks who were hunting with Janvrin after he was called in to take care of a bunch of sheep-killing coyotes and was arrested after he finished off a wounded coyote that ran onto the land of Lex Burghduff, who was a neighbor of the folks who were losing sheep.

Burghduff was a renegade predator control pilot who worked for GF&P and had been trying without success (by using forged names on a fraudulent petition) to get Janvrin's job with the Multi-District Predator Control board, with the assistance of the local GF&P trapper, I might add.

I don't know how deep you want to get into this sordid tale, but my husband was a director of the predator control district while all this stuff was going on and my son is a director now. I have never missed a meeting of the board, never missed a day of the trial, and have known both Burghduff and Janvrin since they were little kids.

Burghduff was recently released from the state pen after serving hard time for a felony conviction for almost beating his second wife to death. Obviously, not the sort of guy the predator control board wanted to employ, although he was good enough for GF&P until they heard of all the felony charges pending against him.

SH might know about some of the other subjects he preaches about, but knowing the garbage he's tried to feed you about these issues, it makes a person wonder how much he actually knows about the other things he discusses. It will be interesting to see how SH tries to refute any of these facts. Facts, being what they are, can't be changed and when they are taken directly from court transcripts and the minutes of legally held meetings, they are impossible to ignore, no matter how hard you try to spin them.

This being said, these are all side issues to the real issue of the GF&P violating the property rights of private landowners, which is the only issue we care about. The rest is nothing but history, and not very uplifting to recall for any of us involved. Bringing this old garbage up, over and over, is beating a dead horse and will neither solve nor change anything.
 
Jaun I don't understand the question.I have seen wolve's here but they didn't eat any beaver to my knoledge.MRJ if you laeve them beaver alone for afew years your intermitent running creeks just might run year around..I am very familiar with western SD i've lived here all my life.My family has lived on this ranch since 1889.My dad is 87 and he has grown many shelter belts.Nobody values trees more than him .He told me to leave them beaver alone because someday that water will be worth more than afew trees and he damn sure was right.He can remember when therwas no game in this country and that was no good either.When the coyotes killed our sheep we took care of the problem.We didn't need any help and we didn't have to kill every coyote that moved.
 
Good post Smalltime and so true.

SJ: "I find it unbelievable that asking permission to enter land would cause hunters and landowners to become criminals."

SH--That statement implies that "ALL" hunters and landowners would break game laws. Nobody ever said that. Larry and Larry admitted that it would result in an increase in game violations but they never implied that it would be all hunters either.



I never said Larry and Larry said, if you reread it I said I and never said ALL--Although the Secretary and the Governor have inferred that.

Some judge, who says it rather than what is said, when determining whether it is true or relevant.
 
"Jaun I don't understand the question.I have seen wolve's here but they didn't eat any beaver to my knoledge"

Smalltime...go back to your question to MRJ!!!!!!
 
As always, LB resorts to "generalizing unsupported statements" as opposed to taking a quote that I have made and proving it wrong with opposing facts.


LB: "Juan, I don't know if you read the posts where SH told SJ and me what the majority of landowners in Harding County think or not, but since both SJ and I are life-long members of this area, we have a much better grasp of what folks out here are concerned about on any given issue than SH does."

Why not provide this quote LB instead of painting your own picture of what was actually stated again?

You have already proven that you have a creative imagination when my pointing out a lie transforms into me calling you a liar.

Nowhere did I state that I know what the majority of the residents in Harding Co. feel on this issue. I stated that the majority (meaning in our state) did not support your position at the legislative level.


LB: "I don't know if the man has ever even set foot in our county, at least I've never seen him here and he dang sure hasn't taken any survey to know what our neighbors think about anything."

First, I have been to Harding Co. many times but that's divertion.

Let's look at the obvious LB.

The obvious is the number of acres in Harding Co. that are signed into the walk-in program.

Comparing the number of walk in area acres THAT WE CAN PROVE to the number of "lockout" acres NOBODY HAS PROVEN points out the obvious fact that the majority of Harding county residents do not share the same negative attitudes of the vocal minority regarding the land lockout.

Each represents a different attitude towards wildlife management and GF&P.


LB: "He's swallowed what John Cooper fed him hook, line, and sinker and spreads it as gospel. Which it most definitely is not!"

Hahaha! That's too funny!

If you think I am a pawn for the system, you haven't got a clue about me. Talk about a reach!

Once again, no substance from you. Rather, the typical discrediting rhetoric by someone who can't contradict what was actually stated with opposing facts.

LB anyone can see that if you could prove me wrong on an issue, all you would have to do is take my exact quote and the facts to the contrary that prove me wrong. You can't do that so you stay in your comfort zone of making generalizing statements to discredit me that you cannot support with facts.

Prove me wrong on anything I have stated!


LB: "SH also sets himself up as an authority on the events leading up to the arrest and subsequent trial of Jerry Janvrin, one of the permitted pilots for the local predator control district."

Once again, all anyone has to do is look at the obvious. This case went before an unbiased jury and JJ was found guilty. What's not to know?

I have no bias towards LB or JJ. My opinion is based on the facts that were presented in court and my discussions with those who investigated the case. Those discussions occurred after the case was taken to court.


LB: "Burghduff was a renegade predator control pilot who worked for GF&P and had been trying without success (by using forged names on a fraudulent petition) to get Janvrin's job with the Multi-District Predator Control board, with the assistance of the local GF&P trapper, I might add."

Lex Burghduff was one of many private contract pilots we work with. Whether or not he was trying to get JJ's job, I have no proof of that either way. Not my problem.


LB: " SH might know about some of the other subjects he preaches about, but knowing the garbage he's tried to feed you about these issues, it makes a person wonder how much he actually knows about the other things he discusses."

Listen to you! LB, anyone can discredit someone else. That requires no thought process. To convince anyone that what I have stated is garbage, you have to prove it is garbage. You will not be able to do that. To the contrary, I have corrected you many times.

One more example of this is the statement that "GF&P did everything in their power to ground JJ". The testimony read in court that was written by John Cooper proves that as a lie.


LB: "It will be interesting to see how SH tries to refute any of these facts."

What's to refute? The jury's verdict was GUILTY.


LB: "This being said, these are all side issues to the real issue of the GF&P violating the property rights of private landowners, which is the only issue we care about. The rest is nothing but history, and not very uplifting to recall for any of us involved. Bringing this old garbage up, over and over, is beating a dead horse and will neither solve nor change anything."

Then why do you keep bringing it up?


~SH~
 
My dear SH,

My post was not directed to you. I was responding to a question posted by Juan. I will no longer respond to your whining, screaming posts because I don't see that I can hope to accomplish anything productive by doing so.

These vituperative exchanges with you are akin to a childish arguement with a nasty little boy on the playground screaming "Did not!" "Did too!" and as such, they solve nothing and are not a profitable discourse, and thus are pointless.

I'd like to say it's been fun, but I never have been very good at spinning tall tales, regardless of what you might think, so I'll just bid you good evening and hope that when you have had time to mature, you will learn to carry on a civil debate. I suggest you go back and read my advice to you at the beginning of this thread, especially line number five and the very last line.

Liberty Belle
 
smalltime said:
Jaun I don't understand the question.I have seen wolve's here but they didn't eat any beaver to my knoledge.MRJ if you laeve them beaver alone for afew years your intermitent running creeks just might run year around..I am very familiar with western SD i've lived here all my life.My family has lived on this ranch since 1889.My dad is 87 and he has grown many shelter belts.Nobody values trees more than him .He told me to leave them beaver alone because someday that water will be worth more than afew trees and he damn sure was right.He can remember when therwas no game in this country and that was no good either.When the coyotes killed our sheep we took care of the problem.We didn't need any help and we didn't have to kill every coyote that moved.
Click to expand...

{smalltime, I'm almost 65 and I, too, can remember when there was almost no game here. I recall the excitement when my grandparents called the grandchildren out to the porch one night to hear a coyote howl. And the time, 1951, I believe, when we had to go the last mile home to the grandparents ranch (soon to be our home) from Midland in a wagon with some hay in it pulled by a tractor. With the hour being late and four young children very tired from the excitement of the school program and going to the country for Christmas, the adults were able to convince us that a very small herd of deer we say running across a meadow in the moonlit snow all had antlers and surely were Reindeer, of the variety Santa might have to pull his sleigh. I was definitely too old for the Santa part of it, but with all the other "magic" of that night, they certainly did look like reindeer that night! My husband, four years older than I, recalls a time in the mid '40's when his father came home from riding very excited to have seen a deer, which he, born in 1903, had not seen in this area before.

Each of us had grandfathers in this area prior to 1890, but this ranch wasn't established till 1892, and my grandfathers a few years later, as he had a livery stable first, so your family is a little longer on the ranch than ours.

We did not conduct a wholesale extermination of beaver. We thinnned the population to give the trees a bit of a break from their depredation.

I'm not so sure about their ability to create year-round running streams here. Our annual precip is claimed to be around 14 inches, but we rarely see that much. More in the 10 to 12" category most decades. In a couple of years from last Thursday, we will start our fifth decade on this spot provided we are still living and able to be her, as we anticipate we will. Plus, the creek we live by runs very fast. There is a 50+ foot drop in elevation between our place and the one a mile away as the crow flies, and we think that is fairly typical of that distance, as it is quite a lot higher where the creek heads up. The channel is maybe 4 to six feet wide at the bottom, up to to about 12 or so wide at the top, and maybe 8 to 10 feed deep. It can run full or overflowing for several days, but when the rain stops, it is virtually empty within hours. There are fairly deep water holes in it, some of which are supplied by the water table from below in the summer. But, it ALL is very alkaline, especially the ground water.

My grandparents ran sheep and killed coyotes for a few years, till they quit the sheep. None of us has had much trouble with coyotes and calves, either. This past year, mange or something has been very hard on the coyotes. We don't see many and aren't hearing them at night much, though they did put on quite a concert Friday night just for our granddaughters arriving from Omaha to spent some time with us. They were impressed! A family story is that some years back when an attempt was made to enlist this ranch in "something done about coyotes eating our calves", my father-in-law calmly stated, "Oh, we kind of like to hear them howl at night" and that pretty much ended the conversation.

MRJ
 
LB: "I will no longer respond to your whining, screaming posts because I don't see that I can hope to accomplish anything productive by doing so."

As expected!

When it comes crunch time to actually back your position with supporting facts, away you go. The "generalizing statements" are a more comfortable approach aren't they.

Let me give you a tip, don't ever find yourself in a court of law with only "generalizing statements" to defend your position.


~SH~
 
smalltime, in reguards to god, he put us in charge of the animals, and the food chain and habitat are there for us to manage. Too much of a "good thing" is a bad thing.
Beavers need controlled because we have no real predator that keeps them in check. Yes wolves,coyotes and bobcats get a few, but not near the numbers that need to be controlled. Beaver cause some damage and do some good, each to his own as to what damage is tolerated. If you ask a guy in good timber area and a guy who has few trees and needs them for soil bank erosion your going to get to very different answers on what will and can in there minds be tolerated! Beavers cause millions in damage each year all across the US, they adapt and we must keep there numbers in check.
Coyotes are the same, they need controlled as too how many and who wants them controlled will vary, a guy raising all cattle might not want or need the level of coyote control a sheep producer may need, they have seen the loss and damage and won't tolerate loss very well. The markets for both are decent and that also plays into the shear value of loss as well. You can be selective on coyotes and it needs to be the ones doing the killing to help solve the problem sooner rather than later, but very few paired up coyotes will just stop killing sheep. They need to be removed if you want the killing to stop most of the time.
If a guy wants the coyotes thinned down then he has that right, if the next guy wants coyotes around that his right, but we are in charge of the checks and balance of nature: any other way would mean Ma Nature dealing the cards, disease, starvation and much more loss to livestock producers and trees and crops.
Look at deer, years ago who heard of CWD? We need more deer control, if hunters won't do it, then ma nature comes up with a method that doesn't pick and choose and you have far more devistation, than by managed harvest. Good habitat will always have wildlife in it. As long as we manage the resource wisely and don't flirt with overfilling the carrying capacity of these areas. Then the habitat suffers along with the resource. You'll see this more with deer and beaver than coyotes.
 

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