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An Unlikely Ally?

RoperAB said:
Soapweed said:
The one commodity most people are shortest of is "time". The second commodity most people are short of is "money". >>

Wouldnt it make sense to have less horses that were worth more money because of the time you had in them instead of having more horses that where worth less than what you have in them?

<<Just because "Joe Blow" has what Joe Blow considers a "Level 3" on the Parelli scale horse for sale, doesn't necessarily mean that the horse is that qualified.>>

Joe blow videos himself with the horse doing the criteria in the booklets. Sends the video to a PNH instructer and gets the horse certified for a modest price.

<<If I was a wage-earner city person wanting to buy a horse, and not all that experienced, I would look for a gentle older horse that already had a lot of miles on it. >>

But your not and if you knew anything about Parelli you would understand why most Parellibots would not be interested in that type of horse.

<<A novice can't just watch Parelli's videos and be an instant horse trainer. That all comes with experience. A green rider and a green horse equals a final color of black and blue. :?>>

Well if somebody is in the horse business, breeding horses they darn well should be horseman enough to get through the Parelli levels.

<<With no meat market on used up horses, good breeders that have always had a profitable market for their young horses will no longer have a viable business. No matter what the commodity, cattle, horses, sheep, or a business on Main Street, no one can stay in business if they don't sell their end product for cost of production plus a nominal profit. The whole horse industry is going to go kapoot in a hurry with this stupid slaughter ban in place. Our troubles are only beginning.>>

If somebodies profit margin is that small I dont know why they are in the horse business in the first place.
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You can always tell a Roper from Alberta, but you can't tell him much.

I think I'd rather eat a dead horse than keep on kicking one. :wink: :-)
 
Roper,I believe I read you don't raise your own horses...where do you buy the ones you train?

I do have to admit I admire your love of horses and your dedication to the business your in. I know for a fact theres no way greg would deal daily with baby boomers wanting to buy first time horses from him.He doesn't have the patience for wanna bees{for lack of better word}

The guys I was talking about have shown and promoted thier horses....gregs brother only sells his horses privately,and has two-three studs standing at a time.
 
RoperAB, in your post about Pat Parelli, you stated "I know I
could buy colts for next to nothing"...

IMO right there lies the problem. How can people keep raising
those colts for you to buy "for next to nothing" if they can't
sell them for much money?

That is why we need a market for unsuitable horses.
Then the horses coming up have more of a value...

Oh, I'm sure I'm spitting into the wind... :wink:

I do admire your noble thoughts, I really do.
 
See, I just don't buy that the slaughter prices have much bearing on the horse market in general. Case in point, for 3 yrs now (way before slaughter ban) killer buyers, and I know these men personally,pay .20 to .30 per pound at the auctions. If a horse can be ridden, it is not sold to the killers, but brings an average of $500. It's the age and training of a horse that sets it's value.
Yesterday, A 9yr old gelding,and 11yr old gelding, weighing 1175 on the scales, brought $200 each. These were fat,sound,slick horses. One was 15.2, the other 16.2. Good hoof and sound. They were assumed unbroken, or at least unrideable.
Enter a 13hand indian pony, said to be rideable. That skinny creature brought $750. I couldn't believe it!
You may argue for slaughter for several reasons, but don't try to say it's a benefit to agricultural prices. I'd hate to see cows at 1175lbs, selling at $200.
 
skidboots said:
See, I just don't buy that the slaughter prices have much bearing on the horse market in general. Case in point, for 3 yrs now (way before slaughter ban) killer buyers, and I know these men personally,pay .20 to .30 per pound at the auctions. If a horse can be ridden, it is not sold to the killers, but brings an average of $500. It's the age and training of a horse that sets it's value.
Yesterday, A 9yr old gelding,and 11yr old gelding, weighing 1175 on the scales, brought $200 each. These were fat,sound,slick horses. One was 15.2, the other 16.2. Good hoof and sound. They were assumed unbroken, or at least unrideable.
Enter a 13hand indian pony, said to be rideable. That skinny creature brought $750. I couldn't believe it!
You may argue for slaughter for several reasons, but don't try to say it's a benefit to agricultural prices. I'd hate to see cows at 1175lbs, selling at $200.
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That is my point. There is no good slaughter market on horses at this time. Those horses that you said only brought $200, back a few years ago would have brought 70-80 cents per pound.

I would also hate to see used up cows weighing 1175# only bring $200. Right now an old cow weighing 1175# will probably bring around 45 cents per pound. That adds up to $528.75 before selling expense. That sure beats the $200 that an old used up horse would bring.

On the flip side of the coin, back about twenty years ago the weigh-up market was so good on horses that a cowboy could hardly afford to buy a young horse with the intent to break it to ride. I have seen #1 weigh-up horses bring over a dollar per pound. That turns a 1200# old used up horse into $1200. I tell you what, in those days the production sales were probably averaging around $1200-$1500 for baby colts. That sure provided incentive for ranchers to raise some horses and use good breeding stock.

Now, with no floor price on horses, and with baby colts bring $50-$100, there is sure no reason to raise horses.
 
You sure wouldn't like our cow market the last few years Soapweed-I'd say the kill price definately floors the price for cattle and horses. As for making money with horses-there's been many a fortune made on trading horses for kill price plus a bit. I have a neighbor two miles away has done just that-spends his winters in Hawaii and I doubt he ever sold a horse for even $2,000 bucks. There's alot of ways to skin a cat that's for sure. As for us we've always raised our own horses and we probably always will.
 
Mrs.Greg said:
Roper,I believe I read you don't raise your own horses...where do you buy the ones you train?

I do have to admit I admire your love of horses and your dedication to the business your in. I know for a fact theres no way greg would deal daily with baby boomers wanting to buy first time horses from him.He doesn't have the patience for wanna bees{for lack of better word}

The guys I was talking about have shown and promoted thier horses....gregs brother only sells his horses privately,and has two-three studs standing at a time.
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Im just having my morning xcoffee. Got no sleep last night so I hope the following makes sense. One breeder got divorced, the other outfit moved to SK. I thought the third was out of the horse business because they sold their stud and a lot of their broodmares. The people that where buying their breeding stock was calling me up and asking me about them. Anyway I was just talking to them last week. They are still in business but with new breeding stock. They are located up west of Caroline. Can PM you the name and address if you like?
The last colts that I have been getting were Appendix or Paints with a lot of TB in them. Example two of the breeders were taking Ex Race horses<TB> and using them for broodmares. Then they would use really good QH or Paint studs on them. You see most trainers are selling typical small QHs or Paints. Thats one of the reasons I like Appendix style horses. Im not directly competing with most western trainers because most trainers dont have this style of horse. Its a smaller niche market. Now the English stables sell this kind of QH but their prices are way higher than mine or most western stables.
About Parelli students
One thing about them is that they are motavated, posative and enthusiastic. I never had to worry about selling a horse to a bad home.
You see Parelli is more about training the person, not the horse.
Because of an injury I got into Parelli for a while. Half of the program used to be groundwork so it wasnt as physically demanding. And honestly I did learn from it. Its just that now I have moved on.
By far the worst people to deal with are the ones that wont read a book, watch a video or get any kind of help or training with their horsemanship. You know every bad habit or problem that a horse can get is man made. THEY ARE NOT BORN THAT WAY. Some horses are way easier and will put up with a lot more than others, but basically its your party, dont blame the horse.

Faster Horses
About buying horses for nothing. I have been paying between $2000 and $2500 for three year olds that were not even halter broke. But if I was doing Parelli horses I could be using just typical QHs that were less expensive. Running Bloodlines isnt the best for Parelli types.
I would look for a QH breeder that does not promote her horses<wink>
I would not buy from somebody like what was the name of that outfit in WY?, stopwatch performance horses<double wink> because that guy is getting good prices according to his web site if I remember right<grin>
 
Sure, roperAB, I understand.

You are the one adding the value to
the horse. You don't need to buy one with value added aleady.
And that is what Stop Watch Performance horses do too, except they
raise most of their horses.

It's kind of like branded beef, you buy a good horse from someone who is known to be knowledgeable and have good horses. Their good reputation makes the horse have more value. That's a win-win situation for everyone.
 
Some of the best people to deal with never read a book-rented a video or attended a horsemanship clinic. More horses have troubles from being bored than anything else-still nothing better than a job to do and a wet saddle blanket to make a horse.
 
Faster horses said:
Sure, roperAB, I understand.

You are the one adding the value to
the horse. You don't need to buy one with value added aleady.
And that is what Stop Watch Performance horses do too, except they
raise most of their horses.

It's kind of like branded beef, you buy a good horse from someone who is known to be knowledgeable and have good horses. Their good reputation makes the horse have more value. That's a win-win situation for everyone.
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Faster Horses thats exactly what im trying to say.
Like there are people who just set back and make big money off their breeding program without training, promoteing etc. What a lot of people dont realise is that they never started like that.
Chances are that they went out and got a yearling stud prospect. They waited until he grew up, trained him, then proved him in the show ring. By the time that horse was proven in the show ring its atleast 5 years later. Then they had to figgure out what kind of mares to cross with him and this takes time. They might not find the right mares for a while. Then they had to start breeding him and then they had to wait another 4 or 5 years before they FOUND OUT IF HIS COLTS ARE ANY GOOD and thats the proof when it comes to breeding horses. So now its up to atleast 10 years since they bought the stud prospect.
The results might be good, but not sensational. They could end up with a good breeding horse but not a world class horse. YOU NEED A WORLD CLASS HORSE to make big money in breeding. So they stuck to it and kept investing time and money into different yearling studs until they got that world class stud. These people can now sit back and take things easy. But their was a ton of work and money invested to get to this point.
But if somebody is breeding regular<which is pretty darn good now a days on average> good breeding horses<like what most people are doing><not a world class stud> then they are going to have to do some value added stuff. I dont think they cant just sit back and wait for people to come knocking on their door.
Anyway at my age and as long as lots of people are breeding good horses and not training or promoting them very good, I might as well just let them do the breeding end of it.
If somebody has the grass and if they only want to breed animals without promoteing them in some way, cows only eat half as much as horses. Cows get less wrong with them. Beef pays better than horsemeat. People are going to eat protien. If the French cant eat horsemeat then they will eat beef, pork, poultry or fish. If those North American packing plants are not grinding up intelligent high strung, nervous, grained up, thin skinned, scared horses who kick and bite when thrown together then I would guess that these same packing plants will be processing dull minded, thick skinned,calm, rugged and hardy cattle that were breed by man for this sole porpose.
 
Faster, you are friends with Stan and Nancy Weaver? I bow in your presence!!!! Weavers know how to breed a horse that's for sure. And to know these guys, wow!!!!!!
 
Stan and Nancy are very down-to-earth people.
Stan used to buy our calves in W. Montana and even
since we have lived here in SE Montana. We have been good friends for
a long time. We were in on helping decide where he would hold
his first sale (location, date, etc) and getting Lynn Weishaar
as auctioneer.

We used to go up and help with the sale every year
until their kids got old enough that we didn't need to go
anymore, although we are always invited.

One year Stan hauled some mares to Prescott, AZ to a grandson
of Driftwood Ike. He asked Mr. FH to go along with him and he
did. They had a great time, however Stan lost some money at the
Blackjack table in Las Vegas. :wink:

I remember their first horse sale. We had to haul the baby colts to Great
Falls the morning of the sale because they aren't weaned yet
and Stan takes them off the mares that very morning. Anyway,
I was riding with Stan when he had a flat tire. He got out and
changed the tire, getting a bit dirty in the process. He didn't have a change of clothes with him. He's a rancher through and through and it didn't even faze him that he wasn't immaculate for that first sale.

I can't say enough about Stan Weaver's word being good.
We've been through some things with him during the years, and we would trust him with anything we have.

They are good people to know.
 
I'm new hear. Just reading through about horse slaughter ban. I have seen the price for untrained and/or unusable horses go down since the debate about the ban started. I do believe it provided a baseline price for these horses. These horses can no longer be sent or sold to slaughter. Someone is going to have to pay for their care and for them to be euthanized. The taxpayers usually end up getting the bill.
 
Welcome to the boards Rafter G. You are correct. Horse market has gone down conciderably. I've been wantin to go to the horse sale just out of curiosity, to find out what kinda prices they are goin for.
 
Last week my neighborhood boys bought a HUGE Belgium mare, preg ( 3 months) for $75...and she's registered. I guess they'd bought a man killer when they told me but she's like a huge puppy dog, broke to harness and the whole deal!

They're using her today to put out some hay and she's working like a charm!!!!

At least she's got a great home now cause she's way too thin .
 
For the heck of it I clicked on to the classified horse section of this forum http://www.ranchers.net/classifieds.htm.
I only read the first 5 ads. These horses were priced at $5000, $15000, $5000, $8500 and $8500.
Gives me the impression that some people must be doing things different than others.
 
RoperAB said:
For the heck of it I clicked on to the classified horse section of this forum http://www.ranchers.net/classifieds.htm.
I only read the first 5 ads. These horses were priced at $5000, $15000, $5000, $8500 and $8500.
Gives me the impression that some people must be doing things different than others.
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Do you realize that just because horses are priced at outlandishly high figures, does not necessarily mean that a willing buyer will automatically show up to purchase said horse? You can wish in one hand and whistle Dixie in the other, and neither one will fill up very fast.

I have read in some of your earlier posts something to the effect that you would never stoop so low as to sell a horse through an auction. One thing about an auction, it brings buyers and sellers together that probably would not find each other otherwise. An auction also establishes a market price. If there is a whole sale barn full of potential buyers, and a horse comes through the ring, probably the final bid is pretty much what the horse is worth.

I am as guilty as the next guy as far as thinking my horse is worth more money than what was bid. I've "no saled" a few in my time, but very seldom can I ever get more out of the horse later than what was bid at the auction. Sometimes buyers just don't show up out of the blue. If a person needs the money and has a horse to convert to cash, sometimes an auction is about the only way that deed of magic will be performed.
 
Isn't it kinda racist to assume that a black man couldn't see the economic value of slaughter horses? But I guess on Ranchers since Mexicans can't night calve they are worthless too.
 
Work Hard and Study Hard said:
Isn't it kinda racist to assume that a black man couldn't see the economic value of slaughter horses? But I guess on Ranchers since Mexicans can't night calve they are worthless too.
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What the heck are you talking about? Or is the better question. What are you smoking?
 

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