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Angus genetic defect update

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
  • Start date Start date
Denny said:
Oh I test a few that have a lot of descendants but if they show up positive the whole works go into the commercial group. Nice thing about the genetics I've used not a lot of testing required. I looked up most of the bulls we've used lately and they tested clean so it's no bother to me.

Take those potential cows and breed them charlaious terminal cross all the calves.

The problem lies in the registered game is they have fictitious value's on there animals. I raise all my own bull's and replacements most likely spend $5000 a year on registration fee's and AI'ing and fee's, divide that by 50 calves and that's $100 a head over commercial value. So basically if you've over spent trying to buy yourself a "TOP" quality herd you'll most likely lose money genetic defects or not.

A bull bred sired heifer calf costs me an extra 15 minute's and $15 a year over the commercial heifer in the same pen. Most of these GREAT seedstock producers need to go broke they have feed covering poor genetics. That and they own the dullest knife in the world.
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Great Post!!

as far as dumping 'potential genetic problems into commercial....." not many folks would take about the best feeder heifer there is and keep her as about the worst beef cow you can find---
 
nortexsook said:
Denny, do you think dumping genetic problems into the commercial market is fair to the commercial buyers?

I personally think that all the genetic defect cattle should be marketed for beef only. Steer the bulls, and spay the heifers.

Just selling heifers at a market does not guarantee they are not going into the commercial breeding herd to be someone else's problem.
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That's why I'd breed them all Charlaious then in turn sell all of them as feeder's to be slaughtered. Not much market here for Char x Angus cows.

So no I wouldn't sell them as replacement heifers.
 
I wasn't trying to be negative to you, just curious if folks thought the heifers should be spayed. The Charolais cross can still carry the defect and say you sell those heifers at weaning at an auction barn, anybody can buy them and do with them as they please, including keeping them as breeders. There may not be a market for smokey cows in your neck of the woods but there are plenty of them out there......

The point being unless someone cuts all bulls and spays all heifers that recessive gene is out there even if crossed multiple times.....
 
The first step is to use tested free sires on the females. This defect affects most breeds of cattle in one form or another. How many more genetic challenges will be identified as researchers delve deeper into the bovine genome? It is not the end of the world but another management concern to be dealt with. My concern is when will the test be released commercially as a pedigree search indicates I may have carriers from breeding choices made in 90's and earlier.
 
Denny said:
Oldtimer said:
kolanuraven said:
This is so NOT an issue it's funny.

There is NO WAY you can get each and evey itty bitty tiny ' blip' out of the genetic soup of ANY critter.

This is a recessive ....it plainly states that in his research paper. The odds of this are so small, but they are there. Do you realize just how many recessives it would take in one herd to make this a BIG issue??? LOTS!!

And besides, most die in the womb, as nature intended, and those that do deliver and survive are culled out anyway. Who keeps cattle with legs growing out their head to breed in hopes to get more??? NO ONE!!!

Me thinks that Dr Beevers has found his ' cash cow' amongst all the Angus purists and is prob having to hire a bank truck to carry all his money.

It is ONLY HIS LAB that conducts these tests and is recognized by the AAA.

I am calling unnecessay BULLSHITE and fear mongering on this deal.
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I agree with you on the fact that we will never have totally clean genetic "soup".. Recessive genetic defects have been and are always there.. That is how evolution occurred... Where it got magnified was with the advent of A.I.- the semen stud promotions- and thousands upon thousands of cattle across the country being bred to the same bull of the month- and breeder after breeder (replicator after replicator) having almost identical looking herds ...

To me open cows is a "Problem"... As some of the research papers indicate- we probably never will know how many open cows were caused by this genetic condition... Which then in return some folks spent a lot of time and some cost trying to find the causation in their herds - (tric, environment, ?)...

Too many open young cows was one of the reasons I moved totally away from the New Designs years ago... I thought it was just that they couldn't fit the environment.. Now I wonder :???:

The cost of testing and/or culling carrier cattle is going to be a problem for some seedstock folks once the commercial test is developed and depending upon that cost and what rules the AAA come down with for handling it - especially those that spent quite a sum testing and culling for the prior genetic issues... On one of the other sites- I've even seen some seedstock folks that got hit hard with those previous defects- and now find themselves deep in another mess- talking about just throwing in the towel...
Click to expand...


Why is it the guys with a few cows worry so much about everything. How many new design's did you have? 1 or 2 get real.
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Well maybe its because we dont have all the money in the world. Every cow is pretty dear on a small outfit. I lose i calf its damn near 10% of my calf crop! Wish i could afford to not worry. I worry a lot trying to improve my little bunch.
 
I wonder how many replacements were sold as just that REPLACEMENTS,,, I know feed lots have been known to sell cattle that were intended to be fed out, putting them back out in the general population, be they be steers, supposedly slaughter only stock etc....
so to say they could not get out there is by a foolish statement..
To stand there and say NOT ME NOT ME is absurd at best
 
Pretty much what I was going to say but seems like some people are having a hard time grasping the concept that we don't need lethal recessives in the commercial cattle genepool and that taking them to an auction barn sexually intact is okay...
 
August 14, 2013



Dear Angus Breeders,



Today, the Board of Directors voted unanimously to recognize Developmental Duplication (DD) as a genetic condition, inherited as a simple recessive. The Board also unanimously adopted a policy relating to the registration status of current and future animals determined to carry this mutation. This newly-adopted policy does not require or mandate the testing of potential carriers as a precondition of continued or prospective registration. Rather, the policy assumes that members will follow sound breeding decisions and make strategic use of DNA testing in dealing with this genetic condition. Because this policy represents an evolution in the Association's approach to genetic conditions generally and, in some respects, a departure from those policies first formulated in the fall of 2008 and the winter of 2009, the Board asked that I share some of its thinking with you on the subject.



With the onset of DD, it became clear that the discovery of genetic conditions will be a part of the future for all breeds of cattle. This Association's early "DNA era" began in 2008 with the development of policies related to first AM and then NH. Those policies were based on the perception that each represented catastrophic, once-in-a-lifetime events. Both conditions were lethal. These early policies were premised on the good faith belief that the best way to eliminate the condition and, at the same time, protect the interests of our commercial customers, was to impose some form of testing as a precondition for registration. This mandatory testing approach has undoubtedly resulted in a measurable decrease in the frequency of AM, NH, and CA, but has come with a significant price tag for the membership.



As the article authored by Jonathan Beever, Ph.D of the University of Illinois that was posted on our website on August 12, 2013 makes clear, the discovery of DD appears to present another condition similar in scope to AM, NH and CA. Leading geneticists in the bovine academic community have increasingly observed that all breeds have hundreds of mutation in their genome and that an Association's approach to genetic conditions should be adapted to reflect the likelihood – indeed, the certainty – that the discovery of such conditions will continue in the future and at a pace accelerated by new scientific tools available at every turn.



There are alternatives to mandatory testing and, over the past five years, our members have shown a willingness to embrace them. These include a better understanding and acceptance of the ability to manage around a known genetic condition by avoidance of breeding carrier to carrier and by the use of voluntary, strategic DNA testing. Equally important, our commercial breeders also understand and embrace these management principals.



The Board has considered this condition, the best interests of the breed and the membership, the state of where the science of genetics is moving with respect to the early detection of genetic conditions and our members' and their customers' ability to manage such conditions. Based on its review of these factors, undertaken over an abbreviated period given the timing of the issue, the Board has adopted the attached policy.

Click here to view the policy.
http://www.angus.org/Pub/DD/DDPolicy08142013.pdf


The Board thanks you for your patience over the past week.





Best regards,

Sig

Phil Trowbridge

President

American Angus Association
Click to expand...

Well Kola- you may have been right.. The AAA President and Board all seem to think its Bullsh*t too-- and are poo-pooing it away..

Money talks- and they are starting to sound like the Federal government- rules/laws are meant only to be broken/ changed in mid stride depending upon how they effect whoever.... :wink:

And I was wrong-- neither Greg at Cole Creek or I can any longer say they/we are genetic defect free-as back in 1984 Cole Creek used a bull called Auch Mr Reb A179 AAA #10193599 which was a son of Ken Caryl Mr Angus 8017 who has been shown to have tested positive as a carrier... And I have a 9th generation daughter- #16769947 WCR Celtic Beauty 013X- which rings the bells as a potential carrier...
Nice little young cow- so as soon as the commercial test is available- I will test her... She has one son that is in a commercial herd that I contacted- but he isn't very worried over it either...
 
Oldtimer said:
August 14, 2013



Dear Angus Breeders,



Today, the Board of Directors voted unanimously to recognize Developmental Duplication (DD) as a genetic condition, inherited as a simple recessive. The Board also unanimously adopted a policy relating to the registration status of current and future animals determined to carry this mutation. This newly-adopted policy does not require or mandate the testing of potential carriers as a precondition of continued or prospective registration. Rather, the policy assumes that members will follow sound breeding decisions and make strategic use of DNA testing in dealing with this genetic condition. Because this policy represents an evolution in the Association's approach to genetic conditions generally and, in some respects, a departure from those policies first formulated in the fall of 2008 and the winter of 2009, the Board asked that I share some of its thinking with you on the subject.



With the onset of DD, it became clear that the discovery of genetic conditions will be a part of the future for all breeds of cattle. This Association's early "DNA era" began in 2008 with the development of policies related to first AM and then NH. Those policies were based on the perception that each represented catastrophic, once-in-a-lifetime events. Both conditions were lethal. These early policies were premised on the good faith belief that the best way to eliminate the condition and, at the same time, protect the interests of our commercial customers, was to impose some form of testing as a precondition for registration. This mandatory testing approach has undoubtedly resulted in a measurable decrease in the frequency of AM, NH, and CA, but has come with a significant price tag for the membership.



As the article authored by Jonathan Beever, Ph.D of the University of Illinois that was posted on our website on August 12, 2013 makes clear, the discovery of DD appears to present another condition similar in scope to AM, NH and CA. Leading geneticists in the bovine academic community have increasingly observed that all breeds have hundreds of mutation in their genome and that an Association's approach to genetic conditions should be adapted to reflect the likelihood – indeed, the certainty – that the discovery of such conditions will continue in the future and at a pace accelerated by new scientific tools available at every turn.



There are alternatives to mandatory testing and, over the past five years, our members have shown a willingness to embrace them. These include a better understanding and acceptance of the ability to manage around a known genetic condition by avoidance of breeding carrier to carrier and by the use of voluntary, strategic DNA testing. Equally important, our commercial breeders also understand and embrace these management principals.



The Board has considered this condition, the best interests of the breed and the membership, the state of where the science of genetics is moving with respect to the early detection of genetic conditions and our members' and their customers' ability to manage such conditions. Based on its review of these factors, undertaken over an abbreviated period given the timing of the issue, the Board has adopted the attached policy.

Click here to view the policy.
http://www.angus.org/Pub/DD/DDPolicy08142013.pdf


The Board thanks you for your patience over the past week.





Best regards,

Sig

Phil Trowbridge

President

American Angus Association
Click to expand...

Well Kola- you may have been right.. The AAA President and Board all seem to think its Bullsh*t too-- and are poo-pooing it away..

Money talks- and they are starting to sound like the Federal government- rules/laws are meant only to be broken/ changed in mid stride depending upon how they effect whoever.... :wink:

And I was wrong-- neither Greg at Cole Creek or I can any longer say they/we are genetic defect free-as back in 1984 Cole Creek used a bull called Auch Mr Reb A179 AAA #10193599 which was a son of Ken Caryl Mr Angus 8017 who has been shown to have tested positive as a carrier... And I have a 9th generation daughter- #16769947 WCR Celtic Beauty 013X- which rings the bells as a potential carrier...
Nice little young cow- so as soon as the commercial test is available- I will test her... She has one son that is in a commercial herd that I contacted- but he isn't very worried over it either...
Click to expand...


Me, better than most, know and understand that you have to have some way to rule out bad genetic issues....BUT...you CAN NOT sweep the genetic pool clean of EVERYTHING.

Take a page from history, Hitler tried...didn't go so well!! :-)

Plus, the AAA has seen a LARGE drop in memberships and registrations due to all this fear mongering over various tests for this and tests for that.

In fact, registration has become so costly to some, they just say screw it and don't bother. All that does is spread any faults throughout the commercial herds in the States and world.


These bulls, Ken Caryle in fact, is/was/ a MAJOR base sire in the industry....thus with that said you're prob talking about about 90% +/- of whole Angus breed in existance today is touched by this gene alone!!!

Recessive genes are just that recessive!!! If ya'll don't know what that means, Google it!!
 
kolanuraven said:
Oldtimer said:
August 14, 2013



Dear Angus Breeders,



Today, the Board of Directors voted unanimously to recognize Developmental Duplication (DD) as a genetic condition, inherited as a simple recessive. The Board also unanimously adopted a policy relating to the registration status of current and future animals determined to carry this mutation. This newly-adopted policy does not require or mandate the testing of potential carriers as a precondition of continued or prospective registration. Rather, the policy assumes that members will follow sound breeding decisions and make strategic use of DNA testing in dealing with this genetic condition. Because this policy represents an evolution in the Association's approach to genetic conditions generally and, in some respects, a departure from those policies first formulated in the fall of 2008 and the winter of 2009, the Board asked that I share some of its thinking with you on the subject.



With the onset of DD, it became clear that the discovery of genetic conditions will be a part of the future for all breeds of cattle. This Association's early "DNA era" began in 2008 with the development of policies related to first AM and then NH. Those policies were based on the perception that each represented catastrophic, once-in-a-lifetime events. Both conditions were lethal. These early policies were premised on the good faith belief that the best way to eliminate the condition and, at the same time, protect the interests of our commercial customers, was to impose some form of testing as a precondition for registration. This mandatory testing approach has undoubtedly resulted in a measurable decrease in the frequency of AM, NH, and CA, but has come with a significant price tag for the membership.



As the article authored by Jonathan Beever, Ph.D of the University of Illinois that was posted on our website on August 12, 2013 makes clear, the discovery of DD appears to present another condition similar in scope to AM, NH and CA. Leading geneticists in the bovine academic community have increasingly observed that all breeds have hundreds of mutation in their genome and that an Association's approach to genetic conditions should be adapted to reflect the likelihood – indeed, the certainty – that the discovery of such conditions will continue in the future and at a pace accelerated by new scientific tools available at every turn.



There are alternatives to mandatory testing and, over the past five years, our members have shown a willingness to embrace them. These include a better understanding and acceptance of the ability to manage around a known genetic condition by avoidance of breeding carrier to carrier and by the use of voluntary, strategic DNA testing. Equally important, our commercial breeders also understand and embrace these management principals.



The Board has considered this condition, the best interests of the breed and the membership, the state of where the science of genetics is moving with respect to the early detection of genetic conditions and our members' and their customers' ability to manage such conditions. Based on its review of these factors, undertaken over an abbreviated period given the timing of the issue, the Board has adopted the attached policy.

Click here to view the policy.
http://www.angus.org/Pub/DD/DDPolicy08142013.pdf


The Board thanks you for your patience over the past week.





Best regards,

Sig

Phil Trowbridge

President

American Angus Association
Click to expand...

Well Kola- you may have been right.. The AAA President and Board all seem to think its Bullsh*t too-- and are poo-pooing it away..

Money talks- and they are starting to sound like the Federal government- rules/laws are meant only to be broken/ changed in mid stride depending upon how they effect whoever.... :wink:

And I was wrong-- neither Greg at Cole Creek or I can any longer say they/we are genetic defect free-as back in 1984 Cole Creek used a bull called Auch Mr Reb A179 AAA #10193599 which was a son of Ken Caryl Mr Angus 8017 who has been shown to have tested positive as a carrier... And I have a 9th generation daughter- #16769947 WCR Celtic Beauty 013X- which rings the bells as a potential carrier...
Nice little young cow- so as soon as the commercial test is available- I will test her... She has one son that is in a commercial herd that I contacted- but he isn't very worried over it either...
Click to expand...


Me, better than most, know and understand that you have to have some way to rule out bad genetic issues....BUT...you CAN NOT sweep the genetic pool clean of EVERYTHING.

Take a page from history, Hitler tried...didn't go so well!! :-)

Plus, the AAA has seen a LARGE drop in memberships and registrations due to all this fear mongering over various tests for this and tests for that.

In fact, registration has become so costly to some, they just say screw it and don't bother. All that does is spread any faults throughout the commercial herds in the States and world.


These bulls, Ken Caryle in fact, is/was/ a MAJOR base sire in the industry....thus with that said you're prob talking about about 90% +/- of whole Angus breed in existance today is touched by this gene alone!!!

Recessive genes are just that recessive!!! If ya'll don't know what that means, Google it!!
Click to expand...

Yep- that is the number I'm hearing tossed around... With it affecting that many herds I can see why the Board is holding off on doing any immediate registration/testing restrictions....

As each day pass's and more and more older bulls are having their DNA tested- the number of potential carriers is dropping...
If they get a test on Fairfield Hi Guy and he would turn up clean it would take a large portion of that percentage...
 
Was talking with breeder yesterday about this. In his opinion, much of the controversy could have been avoided had the AAA Field Reps done their job properly. Instead of courting and wining/dining the big breeders, had they visited with the smaller guys, which own many more numbers of cattle in total, and gotten the true picture of the genetic problems it may not have come to this.

Getting rid of the carriers will take many many years unless a mandatory testing protocol of certain bloodlines is put in place. In the interim, the small guys will jump ship.
 
Jumping ship is option
AAA should of taken care of these issues many years ago
No question the large breeders, money investors and registered cattle traders are trying to find something wrong with their competitors cattle
Now DNA / testing company's that can generate the associations more money than registrations and transfers ever have

I contacted a sales manger this summer about him marketing my cattle he told me I was not big enough for him
Is this new defect really a defect or something a lab dreamed up to generate more business
It always seems that someone with starched shirts in a office somewhere ( may of never raised cattle) find someway to manulape producers.
Those are also reasons for jumping ship !
 
Hay Feeder said:
Jumping ship is option
AAA should of taken care of these issues many years ago
No question the large breeders as well as the money breeders are trying to slam one a others cattle
Now we have testing company's that can generate the associations more money than registrations and transfers ever have

I contacted a sales manger this summer about him marketing my cattle he told me I was not big enough for him
Is this new defect really a defect or something a lab dreamed up to generate more business

Those are also reasons for jumping ship
Click to expand...

It is a genetic mutation/challenge that needs to be managed. More of this type of mutation will be identified as genomic research progresses. I can think of several bulls who's daughters that were removed from the herd due to fertility challenges.
 
What are all the other (BLACK) Cattle going to do you and I both know their as much angus blood in them as anything else. I myself think this is a money ploy more than anything.
 
Denny said:
What are all the other (BLACK) Cattle going to do you and I both know their as much angus blood in them as anything else. I myself think this is a money ploy more than anything.
Click to expand...

5 generations away from crossbreeding, which some require for purebred, would be 97% non-Angus genetics. Of course if the black gene came from a carrier in that 3%, it's still a carrier.
 
Hay Feeder said:
Jumping ship is option
AAA should of taken care of these issues many years ago
No question the large breeders, money investors and registered cattle traders are trying to find something wrong with their competitors cattle
Now DNA / testing company's that can generate the associations more money than registrations and transfers ever have

I contacted a sales manger this summer about him marketing my cattle he told me I was not big enough for him
Is this new defect really a defect or something a lab dreamed up to generate more business
It always seems that someone with starched shirts in a office somewhere ( may of never raised cattle) find someway to manulape producers.
Those are also reasons for jumping ship !
Click to expand...

It is a defect.....a recessive allele.. and it does exist and calves can be born with this, BUT IT IS RARE.........but it is just that RECESSIVE.


It has existed since bovines have existed as it had to come from somewhere, it just didn't ' happen' all of a sudden.

Much ado about nothing here. AAA needs to control their own information releases and not let some lab/testing firm do it for them as their motives are totally different.
 

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