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Angus or Holsteins

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Northern Rancher

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Just got the new Fall Catalogue from a major A'I' stud-which one it is doesn't matter as they are all are pretty much the same-what I can't get over is the mile high milk e.p.d's-hardly a bull under 20 and several bulls over 30-I just can't imagine daughters off those bulls to be practical under most ranch conditions. To put it in perspective we got a few higher milk PB cows they run out with the rest of the cows plus the kids old Jersey nurse cows. That old Jersey winters better than most of them-personally I find cows off bulls that are few pounds or so either way of breed average work best. The funny thing about extra milk to get more weaning weight by the time those calves are finished the high weaners have gotten caught up to or even passed. Excessive milk just is adding to cost of production I'm thinking at least if you retaimn ownership as we do.
 
Northern Rancher said:
Just got the new Fall Catalogue from a major A'I' stud-which one it is doesn't matter as they are all are pretty much the same-what I can't get over is the mile high milk e.p.d's-hardly a bull under 20 and several bulls over 30-I just can't imagine daughters off those bulls to be practical under most ranch conditions. To put it in perspective we got a few higher milk PB cows they run out with the rest of the cows plus the kids old Jersey nurse cows. That old Jersey winters better than most of them-personally I find cows off bulls that are few pounds or so either way of breed average work best. The funny thing about extra milk to get more weaning weight by the time those calves are finished the high weaners have gotten caught up to or even passed. Excessive milk just is adding to cost of production I'm thinking at least if you retaimn ownership as we do.
Click to expand...

Northern Rancher:

I couldn't agree more---I've often said/asked, what is the goal to produce a Holstein??? We were considering using some Angus semen to try and get some new blood in our Red Angus herd and eventually get some outcross red bulls, but in all honesty, they all have so much milk that it turned us away.

I hear these same complaints from good, progressive commercial cattlemen---they are getting so much milk that they are concerned about cost of production/feed or else having open cows. In my opinion, this is a valid concern, because a cow with a calf will milk before she does anything else, including rebreeding. After drought years, some Simmental breeders here have remarked that they had more open cows in their high milkers than in any other group.

The other thing I hear from commercial cattle are concerns about some disposition issues that the Angus breed has...

Good post---have a great day in the North County

TTB
 
Here's a question for ya-what would be a higher maintenance cow-an Angus with a plus 30 milk e.p.d. milking way above breed average or a Simmental cow milking at or below her breed average-both would probably wean the same size calf but what cow would work harder maintaining herself-if phenotype etc. are the same. I liked Angus alot more when they were unpopular-was a lot less of them but they were more functional cattle. You know the old saying about 'Pathfinder' cows-"The only path she could find was one to the feed trough' lol.
 
Northern Rancher said:
Here's a question for ya-what would be a higher maintenance cow-an Angus with a plus 30 milk e.p.d. milking way above breed average or a Simmental cow milking at or below her breed average-both would probably wean the same size calf but what cow would work harder maintaining herself-if phenotype etc. are the same. I liked Angus alot more when they were unpopular-was a lot less of them but they were more functional cattle. You know the old saying about 'Pathfinder' cows-"The only path she could find was one to the feed trough' lol.
Click to expand...

Geez Northern Rancher, what is this, Beef Production again???

I'll have to give some thought to your question--a very intriguing one at that!!!

You know, the Red Angus Assn. now has the Energy of Maintenance EPD, and I've gone through the sire summary and looked at bulls that were fairly accurate for MeEPD---some that were low (took fewer mCal to maintain) really suprised me, as did some that were high--phenotypically it seemed that there wasn't much correlation between cattle looking to me to be "hard doing" or "easy keeping." However, that is my "unscientific observation!!"

One thing I wonder about is how highly correlated the ability to marble is with: 1. Milk EPD and 2: Maintenance or ability to maintain herself--

I guess something new to peruse in the Sire Summary as the winter sets in! What an exciting life I have, huh??

Cheers- :wink:
TTB
 
Seems to me (on my place at least) if cows are going to milk very heavy they have to have enough room to take in lots of forage. Lots of high milk epd cows are long necked, very extended fronts, but narrow based , especially in the front 1/3. I love to look at them on someone elses place but on Fescue, I have to have some width between the front shoulders and a chest floor . They also have to carry that width all the way back . I just can't use frail cattle on my place. Here, milk doesn't have as much to do with the cows ability to maintain herself as the amount of volume she has. I am a volume freak. Got to have it and lots of it.
 
TTB the RA ME epd I am not sure I understand. It seemed like reading the discription it discouraging capacity and volume....said something about the energy to maintain the liver and gut mass for larger volumed cows???? Did I miss something or is that what they were talking about?
 
Red Robin said:
TTB the RA ME epd I am not sure I understand. It seemed like reading the discription it discouraging capacity and volume....said something about the energy to maintain the liver and gut mass for larger volumed cows???? Did I miss something or is that what they were talking about?
Click to expand...

Red Robin:

This is how it was explained to me: "Mature cow maintenance energy genetic predictions are reported as EPDs in the units of Mcal/month. A sire with a mature cow maintenance energy EPD of +20 will on average produce offspring that require an additional 20 Mcal of energy for maintenance per month than would a sire with an EPD of 0."

As well, check out page 5 of this document--it explains it in terms of pounds of feed needed to maintain BCS--as well as the factors included in the EPD calculation.

http://redangus.org/newredsite/ranchersguidetoEPDs.pdf

I think this is a major downfall of all breed assn's. They develop the latest, greatest EPD but don't ever communicate to breeders and producers how to use them or what they mean!!! Many of the purebreds breeders within a breed don't understand them, much less their commercial customers! OK I'll step off my soapbox!

I hope this helps...

TTB
 
Like Dave Nichols adage pretty is as pretty does-there's some big volume ladies up here have raised alot of kids and never took a step backwards lol.
 

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