Any Veterinarians Want to Relocate to Montana?

[the_jersey_lilly_2000]

I understand that the large animal Vet shortage is getting so bad that the powers to be are looking at different programs to loosen up/shorten the training period/testing requirements for folks just certified in large animals-- and the use of more "Techs" that are trained in handling the everyday care of large animals, vaccinations, castratrions, prescriptions, health inspections, preg testing, C-sections and such....Now I know of several ranchers that can handle all this (and are better than a lot of vets)-but by law cannot charge for their services or order the drugs sometimes needed unless they have a friendly vet....

Altho- I've also heard that many Vets are opposing this idea as some of this stuff like preg testing, bull testing and bangs vaccinating is their bread and butter work....

I can see where they would be upset if these folks could go out and start a business of their own. But it should only be done if the "techs" work under a licensed vet. That way whatever work they do goes back into the practice, then they are paid hourly, or salary or commission. (however they agree to do it)
Kinda the same principal as Physician's Assistants. My sister n law is goin to school (after bein a nurse for years) and once she's finished, she'll basically do everything the dr would in a dr's office, but she'll be working under a licensed MD. She'll have patients, write Rx's and everything. They could do the same thing in the vet field and it would work.
But as a parent, I'm all for the seperation of Large and small vet school. Sure will save on our pocketbooks if they'd do that.
If some want to do both large and small, they still have the option of goin to both and gettin their degrees in both.

 

[S CO rancher]

Ten years ago I taught a four day artificial insemination school at Fort Collins. We (total of 4 instructors) had 10 animal science seniors and 15 senior vet students in the class, and 30 ranch students. I learned that teaching a class that size is logistical nightmare, try finding 250 open cows so everyone has fresh cows every day!

The AS students were a joy to work with, all were going home to the ranch and simply realized that they were deficient in their education. All of them said that most of the other AS students had already taken the class, most in high school.

Of the 15 vet students, only 5 were planning on going into large animal practice at the beginning of the class, the 5 men. All of them were good students and quick learners, and of course understood the technical aspects of the course.

At the end of the course they came to us as a group and thanked us for teaching them more about cattle in 4 days than they had learned in the previous 4 years. Four of the women ended up going into large animal practice because they learned that they could work with the animals if they had the proper facilities. Last I checked, those 4 women are still in large animal practice in 3 states, as are all 5 men.

That experience showed me how the vet schools tend to channel the students into the professors biases, instead of what is needed in the real world.

 

[Brad S]

we had a vet that employed 2 real good cowboys with some age on them - they'd come out and preg or process or pull a calf, and the vet would mostly do consultation work. It worked well, but today's climate may not allow a vet to delegate work.

 

[HorseDoc]

There are several reasons for the shortage of Large Animal Veterinarians. As many of you have noted, the females predominate the veterinary colleges now. There are very few men who are graduating that want to practice in a large animal setting. WHY? I can think of several reasons.

1- The competition to get into vet school. There are still plenty of male students with ranching experience that would be excellent veterinarians, however, competition for the 33 veterinary schools is stiff. For example, in my veterinary class there was a student with a PhD in nuclear physics. How many kids from a rural background compete with his GPA and GRE score? My best friend and I planned on opening a large animal practice together after vet school, but he couldn't get accepted after two trys and a Masters degree. Why? Simply due to scores. I gaurantee he would have made an excellent veterinarian. There is a significant amount of weight given to GPA, GRE, and other scores. There is little weight given to practical experience, common sense and the like. Being a veterinarian is a challenge, and it is not for the C student, but there is a lot more to it than grades.

2- The amount of student loan debt incurred. Most people do not realize the amount of debt one has when he graduates from vet school. First, you have 3-4 years of undergrad school, room, board, books, meals, etc. Then you add on another 4 years at several times the undergrad rate. Most will have >$100,000 in student loans, not counting undergrad, and double to triple that if you attended vet school out of state. One look at the AVMA reports showing the starting salaries of large animal veterinarians and you dont have to have a math degree to figure out that you are looking at a lifetime of paying off school debt.

3- The lifestyle of a large animal veterinarian. Not only are you working 70+ hours per week, but now you are going to have to take emergency calls on top of that. 2 am dystocia on a heifer that has been in labor since 10 this morning. Fetotomy in 100+ degree weather on a Sunday afternoon. C-section in the freezing rain. Being called away from a family function because someone didn't realize that there animal should see a veterinarian until it had been sick for 2 weeks-- now it is an emergency. Oh, and doc while your here...............and just send me a bill.

4- Again- the finances. After all of this, even if you still enjoy your work, there are bills to be paid. I have noticed on these boards that although everyone agrees we need more large animal veterinarians, no one wants to pay for it. Oldtimer would rather pay a layman $ 1 per head to preg check his cows. Where is he gonna be at 2 in the morning for the dystocia? SLEEPING! Everything is high nowadays. Look at the price of fuel. I mentioned the student loans, but what about the cost of runnning a large animal mobile veterinary practice? Let me list a few for you....Truck payment, insurance for the truck, fuel, tires, maintenance, drugs, equipment, Vet box on truck, malpractice insurance, DEA license, state license, associtation dues, continuing education (room, travel, meals, meeting registration), health insurance, oh- and dont forget the student loans! This is by no means a complete list. And we have still not figured in any salary for the veterinarian. If you truly want a large animal veterinarian that is worth his salt, you should expect to pay for it. When was the last time you had a plumber, electrician, or air conditioner repair man out to your place? What did that cost you? How many years did they go to college? What is their student loan debt? Should they be cheaper than a veterinarian?

OK, wait a minute now, I know what your thinking. This guy is just wanting to get rich. If I was only in it for the money, the I should have went to Med school. There are more med schools, therefor it is easier to get in, and I would only have to worry about one species. Oh- and yes I would have student loans, but I would be making enough to pay them off before I die. (My bill for a recent emergency room visit of 5 hours was over $15,000.)

I have tried to avoid a rant, but it is looking like I have failed. If you have trouble finding a veterinarian to do your cattle work, and you can only get Joe Bob to ultrasound your cows, then do what you need to. But don't blame the veterinarians for trying to pay their bills and then complain because they will not come out and look at your animals for nothing.

We knew when we went to veterinary school we were never going to be rich. We like working with horses/ cattle and would not be caught behind a desk. We sacrifice our bank account, our sanity, and all too aften our families to help the ranchers.

You are right, we need more large animal veterinarians- but I think you need to appreciate the ones that you do have now as well.

Thanks for letting me rant, I had better get back to work.
Horsedr

 

[High Plains]

HorseDoc, thanks for weighing in on this. I thought you were dead-on! I had a buddy that was a vet's son that couldn't get into dad's alma-mater with a 3.8 GPA. This kid was actually even smarter than the GPA suggested. 120 or so students accepted to vet school that year, only 6 were male. Many of them were not born in the U.S. Not quite a fair situation in my way of thinking. Universities openly admit that they do this kind of discrimination to add "diversity" to the campus. Meanwhile, the smart vet's son that's worked with his dad for years and is not opposed to working on a prolapsed sheep is not going to get a chance at it. Makes me sick!! Now, that small town is in need of a new young vet. Who will it be?

As to the rest of your thoughts, I agree with those too! :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Yep-- Me too...Know a local young lady that was the hopes for our replacement Vet for the area....Had a 4.0 GPA-had pulled more calves and vaccinated more cows than many vets-a good hand- but when it came to being picked for Vet School the students from the more prestigious colleges kept being chosen over her ...She couldn't wait around for next year- and next- running up more school loans- so went into a more business line of learning and is now doing quite well in Ag broadcasting....

Used to be you could buy almost every type of medicine except the hard narcotics at the corner drug stores veterinary section...And over the years I've seen a direction where the Government is requiring more and more medicines handled only by/or obtained only thru Vets- but less and less Vets to do it....

So-- Horse Doc-- Do you have any answers to the problems? Less years schooling? more Vet techs with the ability to do more techniques on their own? More Vet schools? Increased government and private scholarships and grants?

I would think this would be a key concern of the American Veterinary Medical Association-- and they would be trying to come up with some answers before the situation gets so bad it forces the government to take actions... Altho I saw a few months ago where the AVMA hired the former USDA Head Vet famous for his SANTA GERTRUBIS comment as their new Excecutive Vice Pres- so my faith with them has greatly diminished... :roll: :wink: :lol: