Faster horses
Well-known member
Kato said:
Thanks. I had that figured out without looking.
Attn. US producers
- Thread starter Big Muddy rancher
- Start date
Thanks. I had that figured out without looking.
katrina
Well-known member
Whew!!!! I was in the dark on that one.... Sheesh is there more to this story?
burnt
Well-known member
gcreekrch said:
Well it does seem a bit strange when someone is always polishing their own halo.
But you gotta admit, GCreek, it makes a nice, feel-good bedtime story . . .
gcreekrch, doubtless both of us will continue to believe what our sources of information, AND our own prejudices reveal to us.
Why do prices for our cattle ever rise? Why do prices for beef at the grocery stores rise? IF the packers have the power to do whatever they want?
Why are there ANY small packers, and yes, there are quite a few of them across this nation.
What did Canada do about culling those imported blood lines BEFORE any BSE was found on this continent?????
I do know that there was considerable pain for some of the US seedstock folks making that sacrifice, but they did it.
Why do prices for our cattle ever rise? Why do prices for beef at the grocery stores rise? IF the packers have the power to do whatever they want?
Why are there ANY small packers, and yes, there are quite a few of them across this nation.
What did Canada do about culling those imported blood lines BEFORE any BSE was found on this continent?????
I do know that there was considerable pain for some of the US seedstock folks making that sacrifice, but they did it.
burnt
Well-known member
mrj said:
mrj, with all due respect, I offer that you and your fellow producers do not know what pain is.
In light of what the Canadian producer has endured for the past 10 years, for you to argue to the contrary does little to demonstrate any credibility on your part. We were the shock troops that buffered both the domestic and international impact of the US's BSE issues.
If you eliminated the imported sources of infection, where did your indigenous cases come from, the ones that were actually discovered and reluctantly reported when it became clear that SSS would no longer work?
bearvalley
Well-known member
mrj, some food for thought.
The US goverment disposed of the cattle with ties to Britain.
In 1997 the FDA put the "Animal Feed Ban" in place.
And then...
2003-Washington State BSE cow, imported from Alberta
2005- Texas BSE cow...12 years old
2006- Alabama BSE cow...10 years old
2012-California BSE cow...10 years old
So...
Getting rid of the British bloodlines didn't fix it.
The Feed Ban didn't fix it.
BSE is going to pop it's ugly head up South of the invisible line again.
It can't all be blamed on CANADA.
So....
Maybe both side of the Border should get on the same page. 10 years down the road it's going to be hard to say "She's a 20 year old cow, born before the feed ban, or maybe she came from Alberta.
But then maybe if some of the Montana/North Dakota bargain hunters manage to land some Canadian cheap breds there will be a fresh set of scape goats.
The US goverment disposed of the cattle with ties to Britain.
In 1997 the FDA put the "Animal Feed Ban" in place.
And then...
2003-Washington State BSE cow, imported from Alberta
2005- Texas BSE cow...12 years old
2006- Alabama BSE cow...10 years old
2012-California BSE cow...10 years old
So...
Getting rid of the British bloodlines didn't fix it.
The Feed Ban didn't fix it.
BSE is going to pop it's ugly head up South of the invisible line again.
It can't all be blamed on CANADA.
So....
Maybe both side of the Border should get on the same page. 10 years down the road it's going to be hard to say "She's a 20 year old cow, born before the feed ban, or maybe she came from Alberta.
But then maybe if some of the Montana/North Dakota bargain hunters manage to land some Canadian cheap breds there will be a fresh set of scape goats.
I have never discounted the suffering of the Canadian cattle producers.
However, as part of the third generation on this ranch, which was started about 1892, with generations four, five and six working with us, we have heard about, and witnessed our share of 'hard times'. We are grateful we never had to witness the government shooting cattle for which they paid the rancher a small fraction of the cost, and pushed them into holes to be burned and buried, as have some ranchers in the USA.
Nor did we personally work our hearts out to buy land, only to lose it in the banking failures in the early 1900's, or bank crash again in 1929, or the devastating drought of the 'dirty thirties, as so many folks, in this area did. We did, however, put plenty of sweat, tears, and even a little blood into buying the land a couple of times over from 'Uncle Sam' via Death Taxes, just like many other US ranchers have done. Those who have been successful in building and keeping ranches going over generations have been truly blessed......but we have our hardships and even tragedy as part of our history and memories of what we owe the pioneers of family ranching in this country.
The BSE debacle, and yes, it has been that! has been a tragedy for you folks, and I just wonder how justified it all has been. Surely mistakes have been made, and we STILL do not have all the facts of cause and effect, do we? Did the USA, or the US rancher do anything to cause the devastation to the Canadian cattle producer? What if the shoe had been on the other foot, and the USA suffered, and Canadian producers had been unscathed? However, as I recall, NO ONE on this side of the border got through that mess undamaged if they owned cattle.
So...........snide remarks about "shoot, shovel........" and claims, with little to no verification re. what the USA does to prevent/find/stop BSE seem quite counterproductive, don't they?
mrj
However, as part of the third generation on this ranch, which was started about 1892, with generations four, five and six working with us, we have heard about, and witnessed our share of 'hard times'. We are grateful we never had to witness the government shooting cattle for which they paid the rancher a small fraction of the cost, and pushed them into holes to be burned and buried, as have some ranchers in the USA.
Nor did we personally work our hearts out to buy land, only to lose it in the banking failures in the early 1900's, or bank crash again in 1929, or the devastating drought of the 'dirty thirties, as so many folks, in this area did. We did, however, put plenty of sweat, tears, and even a little blood into buying the land a couple of times over from 'Uncle Sam' via Death Taxes, just like many other US ranchers have done. Those who have been successful in building and keeping ranches going over generations have been truly blessed......but we have our hardships and even tragedy as part of our history and memories of what we owe the pioneers of family ranching in this country.
The BSE debacle, and yes, it has been that! has been a tragedy for you folks, and I just wonder how justified it all has been. Surely mistakes have been made, and we STILL do not have all the facts of cause and effect, do we? Did the USA, or the US rancher do anything to cause the devastation to the Canadian cattle producer? What if the shoe had been on the other foot, and the USA suffered, and Canadian producers had been unscathed? However, as I recall, NO ONE on this side of the border got through that mess undamaged if they owned cattle.
So...........snide remarks about "shoot, shovel........" and claims, with little to no verification re. what the USA does to prevent/find/stop BSE seem quite counterproductive, don't they?
mrj
burnt
Well-known member
mrj - "However, as I recall, NO ONE on this side of the border got through that mess undamaged if they owned cattle."
mrj, that comment alone shows that the extent of the impact on CDN cattle producers is completely lost on you. And we have, on both sides of the border, suffered through the other "normal" hardships that you described.
However, when it comes to the fallout from BSE, a suitable comparison would be getting bitten by a mosquito (American cattle producer), or getting bitten by a mosquito carrying West Nile Virus (guess who?).
If the present day comparisons in breeding stock values are not evidence enough of the damage done to CDN cattlemen and women, then this discussion is a waste of time.
And speculation on what-ifs . .well, that could go on a long, unproductive time.
I respect you, mrj, but I bleed for the suffering of the cattle producers of this country and refuse to allow their immeasurable injury to be understated or belittled.
mrj, that comment alone shows that the extent of the impact on CDN cattle producers is completely lost on you. And we have, on both sides of the border, suffered through the other "normal" hardships that you described.
However, when it comes to the fallout from BSE, a suitable comparison would be getting bitten by a mosquito (American cattle producer), or getting bitten by a mosquito carrying West Nile Virus (guess who?).
If the present day comparisons in breeding stock values are not evidence enough of the damage done to CDN cattlemen and women, then this discussion is a waste of time.
And speculation on what-ifs . .well, that could go on a long, unproductive time.
I respect you, mrj, but I bleed for the suffering of the cattle producers of this country and refuse to allow their immeasurable injury to be understated or belittled.
gcreekrch
Well-known member
I wonder, mrj, how many 12 to 14 cent cows your ranch sold in the last 11 years
I recall shipping a part load of 34 empty cows and 2 bulls about 2005. Only a couple of the cows were what you might call shelly. The load netted me $8826,32. Kind of like the 30's in the new millenium?
Or a neighbor that put his 400 yearlings in a feedlot to custom finish his cattle for the first time. The first steers were ready to go the day they announced BSE in Canada. They sold overfinished, 3 weeks later for 19 cents per lb.
Tell me how many US producers received these kind of prices. And packers who were making in excess of $800 per hd. profit on the scam, shipping our "unsafe" meat to you. Dollars that found their way into US company pockets.
The main thing Canada did wrong was depending on our "friends" to the south a little too much.
I recall shipping a part load of 34 empty cows and 2 bulls about 2005. Only a couple of the cows were what you might call shelly. The load netted me $8826,32. Kind of like the 30's in the new millenium?
Or a neighbor that put his 400 yearlings in a feedlot to custom finish his cattle for the first time. The first steers were ready to go the day they announced BSE in Canada. They sold overfinished, 3 weeks later for 19 cents per lb.
Tell me how many US producers received these kind of prices. And packers who were making in excess of $800 per hd. profit on the scam, shipping our "unsafe" meat to you. Dollars that found their way into US company pockets.
The main thing Canada did wrong was depending on our "friends" to the south a little too much.
Kato
Well-known member
:agree:
Well said.
Damage? Mmm... let me count the ways... It's hard to know where to start. We got caught with 150 calves that we'd just bought for about $1.35 a pound, and that still gives me the shivers. People were shooting cows for the dogs to eat, because it was cheaper than buying dog food. One neighbour committed suicide. We lost a generation of cattle producers, my own sons included.
Refinancing, selling everything that wasn't absolutely necessary, pulling rabbits out of hats, and literally living out of the garden were all strategies we fell back on. We have been re-living the Great Depression up here, while the rest of the world carried on without a clue. And just like our parents and grandparents who lived through the first one, it has changed us forever.
In the thirty eight years we've farmed, we've been through market ups and downs, twenty percent interest rates, five dollar diesel, drought, floods, and blizzards, but NOTHING even comes close to BSE. Not even in the ball park. Is it any wonder we snapped when MCOOL came in to kick us when we were down?
If I had a dollar for every time someone asked "Why haven't you sold your cows yet?" I could have paid for the farm. We are still repaying the debts, and will be for a while yet. And we are the ones who stuck it out. So many more have not. You can't get a bred cow into a sale here unless you've booked a dispersal. The auction marts are booked solid, and the packer buyers are taking home most of the cows.
The damage is not finished being done yet.
Well said.
Damage? Mmm... let me count the ways... It's hard to know where to start. We got caught with 150 calves that we'd just bought for about $1.35 a pound, and that still gives me the shivers. People were shooting cows for the dogs to eat, because it was cheaper than buying dog food. One neighbour committed suicide. We lost a generation of cattle producers, my own sons included.
Refinancing, selling everything that wasn't absolutely necessary, pulling rabbits out of hats, and literally living out of the garden were all strategies we fell back on. We have been re-living the Great Depression up here, while the rest of the world carried on without a clue. And just like our parents and grandparents who lived through the first one, it has changed us forever.
In the thirty eight years we've farmed, we've been through market ups and downs, twenty percent interest rates, five dollar diesel, drought, floods, and blizzards, but NOTHING even comes close to BSE. Not even in the ball park. Is it any wonder we snapped when MCOOL came in to kick us when we were down?
If I had a dollar for every time someone asked "Why haven't you sold your cows yet?" I could have paid for the farm. We are still repaying the debts, and will be for a while yet. And we are the ones who stuck it out. So many more have not. You can't get a bred cow into a sale here unless you've booked a dispersal. The auction marts are booked solid, and the packer buyers are taking home most of the cows.
The damage is not finished being done yet.
However, as I recall, NO ONE on this side of the border got through that mess undamaged if they owned cattle.[/quote]
I visited the US in May 2004. One of the first people I talked to wearing a cowboy hat very quickly told me, "I know BSE has been hard on you people, but it sure has been good for us!" and then went on to tell me the prices he recently received for his yearlings. I remained civil, but it took a lot of restraint...
I visited the US in May 2004. One of the first people I talked to wearing a cowboy hat very quickly told me, "I know BSE has been hard on you people, but it sure has been good for us!" and then went on to tell me the prices he recently received for his yearlings. I remained civil, but it took a lot of restraint...
bearvalley
Well-known member
mrj, you're not alone with deep roots in the ranching business. Mine settled in the Salmon River country in Idaho among the first. Relatives are still there and some raising cows. My grandparents and parents got itchy feet and came to BC. When it comes to generations in the cattle game, I'd be the 5th, if any of my kids stay with it, they'd be the 6th. So our two tribes have been at it about the same amount of time, only difference being mine tracked up a little more country.
The remarks about Shoot, Shovel...etc, weren't meant to be snide. More so they were ment to point out the differences in how actively BSE is being sought out in both country's.
The US is kidding itself if it thinks it has its own "Sovereign" ( a word that seems to come up a lot"....cattle herd. We have a North American cattle herd with North American problems. This become pretty obvious with YOUR Texas and Alabama cows. This dumb cowboys advice to the American cowmen would be to cut loose from the Bill Bullard mentality and get on with the 21st century business of raising beef. If one of your undetected BSE cows hits the food chain, and don't rule out it already hasn't, any BSE related fallout the United States has felt will be nothing but a fart in the wind.
As to the compassionate drama about your family, friends and neighbours hardships to survive, we've all been there. Stuff happens that can't be avoided. You can't turn off a drought. You can't stop a flood and you can not keep a relative from dying. But you can take steps to cut down on death taxes and you don't have to kick your neighbours.
Maybe I do get a little fired up on the finger pointing protectionist attitude from the South side of the line. 10 years of the BSE-BS has been a grind. Throw into the middle of that a 10 month complete ranch quarantine brought on by a 2 year old heifer in the initial stages of Bovine TB (Mexican Roping Cattle strain). She left my ranch in November, thru a salebarn, 2 different feedlots,3 cattle liners until her final day at a Washington State slaughter house were the TB was detected. Even though she spent almost 6 months in a Washington feedlot rubbing shoulders with cattle from all over the Pacific Northwest the USDA ruled there was no co-mingling with any US cattle. Do you think our CFIA is going to challenge that even if the lot held another 40,000 head +/-. So with that, the extent of traceback, start to finish was my ranch. When the smoke all cleared ( and believe me there was smoke ) NOT ONE SINGLE COW had a trace of TB on my ranch. One thing out of it was I got the honour of being the last guy in BC to sell a big bunch of 2 year old steers. Not a real good piece of business with the OTM rule in effect but I got a hell of a good education as to the workings of the USDA and CFIA.
Anyhow, my sympathy is extended to the American ranchers ( on both sides of the line) if the US Beef boat starts to take on water. It's gonna be a hell of a wreck for all of us.
The remarks about Shoot, Shovel...etc, weren't meant to be snide. More so they were ment to point out the differences in how actively BSE is being sought out in both country's.
The US is kidding itself if it thinks it has its own "Sovereign" ( a word that seems to come up a lot"....cattle herd. We have a North American cattle herd with North American problems. This become pretty obvious with YOUR Texas and Alabama cows. This dumb cowboys advice to the American cowmen would be to cut loose from the Bill Bullard mentality and get on with the 21st century business of raising beef. If one of your undetected BSE cows hits the food chain, and don't rule out it already hasn't, any BSE related fallout the United States has felt will be nothing but a fart in the wind.
As to the compassionate drama about your family, friends and neighbours hardships to survive, we've all been there. Stuff happens that can't be avoided. You can't turn off a drought. You can't stop a flood and you can not keep a relative from dying. But you can take steps to cut down on death taxes and you don't have to kick your neighbours.
Maybe I do get a little fired up on the finger pointing protectionist attitude from the South side of the line. 10 years of the BSE-BS has been a grind. Throw into the middle of that a 10 month complete ranch quarantine brought on by a 2 year old heifer in the initial stages of Bovine TB (Mexican Roping Cattle strain). She left my ranch in November, thru a salebarn, 2 different feedlots,3 cattle liners until her final day at a Washington State slaughter house were the TB was detected. Even though she spent almost 6 months in a Washington feedlot rubbing shoulders with cattle from all over the Pacific Northwest the USDA ruled there was no co-mingling with any US cattle. Do you think our CFIA is going to challenge that even if the lot held another 40,000 head +/-. So with that, the extent of traceback, start to finish was my ranch. When the smoke all cleared ( and believe me there was smoke ) NOT ONE SINGLE COW had a trace of TB on my ranch. One thing out of it was I got the honour of being the last guy in BC to sell a big bunch of 2 year old steers. Not a real good piece of business with the OTM rule in effect but I got a hell of a good education as to the workings of the USDA and CFIA.
Anyhow, my sympathy is extended to the American ranchers ( on both sides of the line) if the US Beef boat starts to take on water. It's gonna be a hell of a wreck for all of us.
mytwocents
Well-known member
gcreekrch said:
Is mrj supposed to feel guilty because she got more than you for her cattle? Isn't that distorted "Obama" thinking? One should not be allowed to be more successful than another by God! When another is oppressed we should all feel guilty if we are not as oppressed. BULL -----!!! If that is your line of thinking then our president should go up there where he'd fit in better.
Was mrj supposed to say, "I don't want to get paid more than the Canadian ranchers. NO, NO, please don't give me more money for my cattle then them!"
No U.S. rancher that I know of was jumping up and down with joy over what the Canadian ranchers went through. I'm sure the packers were though.
And what exactly did you depend on us neighbors to the south for? What did you want us to do? Seriously, what did you want from us and what would YOU have done if the tables were turned?
The start of this was due to the first case being discovered in Canada in 2003. Our rules were to ban imports from any country containing BSE. Pretty simple. Were we supposed to make an exception and NOT ban imports from another country containing BSE when this all started?
bearvalley
Well-known member
mytwocents
How can you have such a thing as "distorted Obama thinking"?
You gotta remember he's a Product of the USA and Your Leader.
You and OT must swap thoughts or be clones, eh?
How can you have such a thing as "distorted Obama thinking"?
You gotta remember he's a Product of the USA and Your Leader.
You and OT must swap thoughts or be clones, eh?
mytwocents
Well-known member
aspen said:
I visited the US in May 2004. One of the first people I talked to wearing a cowboy hat very quickly told me, "I know BSE has been hard on you people, but it sure has been good for us!" and then went on to tell me the prices he recently received for his yearlings. I remained civil, but it took a lot of restraint...[/quote]
Was it this guys fault that he was getting more money for his cattle at that time when our borders were closed to Canadian imports? After years of seeing Canadian cattle come down to flood our markets and lower our prices wouldn't it be a relief to anyone to finally get some better prices? I fail to find anything wrong with that?
mytwocents
Well-known member
bearvalley said:
Maybe I didn't explain it well. Seems to me Obama thinks we should feel guilty if we are successful when another is not. I don't believe he is a product of the USA and he's certainly not a leader that I'm proud of. I didn't vote for him.
As far as OT. I don't know the man, just see he gets ganged up on here a lot when he goes against the grain. Seems to me the clones are many of the rest of the folks who all think the same, as well as those that don't think for themselves at all, but jump on the bandwagon to join in. Boy is there hell to pay when one doesn't think the same as the clones. They sure go out of their way to try to convert though. They get an A for effort. :wink:
gcreekrch
Well-known member
mytwocents said:
MRJ's condescending tone of how rough her family has had it through the short US BSE period got my back up. As with anything adverse, those of you who didn't deal with the situation will never realize or care how bad it was for your fellow cattlemen.
burnt
Well-known member
mytwocents said:
Hey buddy, don't feel so bad! It's clear that you explained it to the best of your ability and understanding!
Kato
Well-known member
It's not the fact that US producers got better prices that gets us riled up. Take the money. We would too. And we don't begrudge anyone getting a fair value for their work.
It's the gloating over it, and certain groups (we all know who they are) doing their best to take credit for it, and taking advantage of our bad fortune to lobby your government to take steps to make sure the damage was as devastating as possible.
Before the BSE debacle happened, on our side, anyway, we considered the American cattle producers to be friends. Seeing those same people jump on us like a pack of coyotes because we were down really hit hard. Sure, the government is expected to be an obstacle, but when the most viscous attack comes from fellow cattlemen, it's at a whole other level.
I know not all American cattle producers are like this, but the ones who are, are the ones who do their best to lobby for our demise. They are the ones who work to get the ear of your government so their goals can be achieved. Put the knife in the back, and then give it a good twist.....
It's the gloating over it, and certain groups (we all know who they are) doing their best to take credit for it, and taking advantage of our bad fortune to lobby your government to take steps to make sure the damage was as devastating as possible.
Before the BSE debacle happened, on our side, anyway, we considered the American cattle producers to be friends. Seeing those same people jump on us like a pack of coyotes because we were down really hit hard. Sure, the government is expected to be an obstacle, but when the most viscous attack comes from fellow cattlemen, it's at a whole other level.
I know not all American cattle producers are like this, but the ones who are, are the ones who do their best to lobby for our demise. They are the ones who work to get the ear of your government so their goals can be achieved. Put the knife in the back, and then give it a good twist.....
"No U.S. rancher that I know of was jumping up and down with joy over what the Canadian ranchers went through."
twocents, you said this, then you quoted my statement. "One of the first people I talked to wearing a cowboy hat very quickly told me, "I know BSE has been hard on you people, but it sure has been good for us!"
Maybe I didn't make it clear. That man was definitely gloating over the high prices he was getting, while I was telling him of people who had gone under and others who received trucking bills for sending cattle to market. The sale price didn't even cover the trucking. Yes, he was jumping up and down with joy over someone else's problems. No sympathy there at all! I feel the same from you...
twocents, you said this, then you quoted my statement. "One of the first people I talked to wearing a cowboy hat very quickly told me, "I know BSE has been hard on you people, but it sure has been good for us!"
Maybe I didn't make it clear. That man was definitely gloating over the high prices he was getting, while I was telling him of people who had gone under and others who received trucking bills for sending cattle to market. The sale price didn't even cover the trucking. Yes, he was jumping up and down with joy over someone else's problems. No sympathy there at all! I feel the same from you...