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Tully

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Hello there ,things in Australia have taken A fairly dramatic turn for the better of late due to the rain , we were looking at another drought not long ago but we have had about 8 inches of steady rain in the last 3 weeks coupled with a fairly mild winter the clover is going to be a concern sooner than later so we will be juggling feed for a while yet.The strange thing about a good spring is that it will make my embryo transfer program a bit tricky.we find that the worst thing to have when programing recipients is green feed,so we have to lock them in a bare paddock & feed them oaten hay & copra meal by doing this we have achieved up to 80% successful pregnancies which seems to be above the usual rate.Any other tips on this would be appreciated. The cattle market has risen a fair bit , I bought 250-270kg euro cross steer weaners before the rain for about 160ckg liveweight now they are making 80ckg more . The feedlot industry is expanding fairly fast over here & are making the market for most young cattle quite dear.I breed Wagyu cattle myself & find them to be quite an interesting breed the $ adds up as well,are there any wagyu breeders out there to compare notes with ? any way all the best from the land of Oz. :)
 

DJL

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Nice to hear you are getting some rain. I have a friend in Australia who has been enduring what seems to be years of drought, which I can't imagine. I'm also glad someone is making good money on their cattle.
 

Australian Cattleman

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Things have changed a bit at our place. Not as good as down at Tullys place. Its still wintery looking here. We have a fair bit of dry grass,a little clover is starting to come through. We still have a way to go through winter yet. More big frosts yet to come. We've had 22 so far this winter. Only had two in the last couple of weeks.
Hopefully we'll get more rain soon.

Colin
 

Mike

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Tully, Send some pictures of those Wagyu cattle. Thinking about A.I.ing some char cattle to Wagyu this fall as an experiment. Calf size? disposition? Just wondering.
 

Tully

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Mike, I am not as computer literate as some so photos will be a while for me , try www.mayurastation.com & look at there sire battery. The first bull Itoshigefuji is A freak 1200kg & marbles very well he is owned by Gary Yamamoto in Texas (yama Beef) . The cross you are talking about was done by Kansas state university & the carcase results were quite startling you may find them on the net if you search hard enough.

As an aside if any one over there has any semen straws from itoshigefuji I would appreciate hearing from you

regards
Tully :)
nearly forgot to answer your Q,s Mike.
Calf size : like a skinned cat, best heifer bulls I have ever used
Disposition: like Brahmans, meaning they are quite inteligent & respond well to good quiet handling & weaning procedures. conversly if you treat them rough they are quite athletic to say the least.
 

the_jersey_lilly_2000

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Anyone tried Polling them wagyu critters? They look like fairly nice cattle, except for the horns (I dont like horned cattle) got a few but still would rather not have the horns.
 

Tully

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We have found that when used over Angus females there are only about 2-3% horned calves we knock them of at branding with scoop dehorners. If you venture past F1 then the horns become dominant. The japanese have developed a way of judging /grading their cattle based partley on horn texture as well as coat type. They have developed a poll strain but it is far behind the horned type in meat quality & may never be as important for a very long time if ever.If you ever get the opportunity to try the meat from these animals it is quite addictive. We killed an F2 steer recently fattened on grass & the most renmarkable thing is the eating quality of the lesser cuts, the mince (ground trim) makes the most amazing burgers something you Americans will appreciate.
regards
Tully
ps we had our first frost of the year today ...turned out to be a glorious day. :lol:
 

nr

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Tully said:
Hello there ,things in Australia have taken A fairly dramatic turn for the better of late due to the rain , we were looking at another drought not long ago but we have had about 8 inches of steady rain in the last 3 weeks coupled with a fairly mild winter the clover is going to be a concern sooner than later so we will be juggling feed for a while yet.The strange thing about a good spring is that it will make my embryo transfer program a bit tricky.we find that the worst thing to have when programing recipients is green feed,so we have to lock them in a bare paddock & feed them oaten hay & copra meal by doing this we have achieved up to 80% successful pregnancies which seems to be above the usual rate.Any other tips on this would be appreciated. The cattle market has risen a fair bit , I bought 250-270kg euro cross steer weaners before the rain for about 160ckg liveweight now they are making 80ckg more . The feedlot industry is expanding fairly fast over here & are making the market for most young cattle quite dear.I breed Wagyu cattle myself & find them to be quite an interesting breed the $ adds up as well,are there any wagyu breeders out there to compare notes with ? any way all the best from the land of Oz. :)

Is there a scientific reason why green feed deters pregnancy?
 

Tully

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The reason given to me is that green feed especialy some clovers changes the hormone balance in an animal. Some of the embryo transfer programs i have seen involve the donor animals being fed cereal straw & very litle else for brief periods to enhance results certainly overcondition especialy in Wagyu is a big concern.
cheers
Tully
 

Faster horses

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I have posted on this topic before. I have an article written by Mr. Price that talks about the problems of getting cows to settle on high protein pastures. High protein at that time of the year causes ph imbalance in the uterus and interferes with the egg attaching to the uterine wall. The cows cycle, but they don't settle.

He recommends getting the cattle off the high protein grass about two weeks before breeding. It is his findings that that management practice works well and the cattle will breed right up.
 

the_jersey_lilly_2000

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What about when they are on high protein feed? Just wondered because we had daughters pen of three (4) heifers...for 4H. One of the 4 wasn't bred at show date. but thank goodness there were 3 of them bred. Just wondered if when on feed it has same affect???
 

Faster horses

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Yes, I am sure that high protein in any form is detrimental to breeding. Protein requirements need to be met, but not exceeded.

How much protein were you feeding them? Let's figure out exactly how much protein they were getting. Did you notice any acidosis? (Loose manure on their behind.) That is usually a sign of too much protein.

Doesn't take much protein to have enough...2 lb. crude protein per head per day in the last trimester of a bred cow is enough. I know of instances where producers fed up to 7 lbs. of crude protein. That is an OVER KILL. They fed it after the cows calved and caused themselves LOTS of problems. Too much protein after calving raises the blood urea of the calf and predisposes them to SCOURS.

Overfeeding protein is expensive at the very least.
 

the_jersey_lilly_2000

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we were feeding a mixture of rice bran, cotton seed and corn. I honestly dont know what the protein content was....even tho it had a breakdown with it that said 70% protein..but I just can't fathom 70%. We were feeding 7 lb a day per head at the end. along with hay and mineral.
I know cotton seed meal is like 41 % protein but have no idea what the rice bran and corn would add to that mixture. Was some awful cheap feed 167.00 a ton. this was the first year our county included commercial heifers in the fair. We only had 10 pens total..but there were some awsome cattle in those 10 pens. Had several of the buyers state that they were really impressed with all the cattle and the condition they were in.
We were probably over feeding ours to a certain extent tryin to put lbs on em because at weigh in ours weighed about 100 lb a head less than the others and we were trying to catch up. PUlled the heifers out of our own herd where as the others all went out and bought show heifers. Can't complain on the outcome tho she placed 4th and sold them for 1375.00 a head at auction which was same money the grand champion pen brought.
We've never had to feed cows like that before..measuring and keeping records on it that close. Most winters we hay our cattle and that's it. Since we are in south east texas winters are rather mild and we have green grass to a certain extent all year long. Anyway interesting thread here.
 

Faster horses

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I am getting in a little over my head here, as I don't know that much about feedlot rations.

However, in my limited knowledge I would figure it this way:

We don't know how much moisture the mixture contained, so I will use a book value of 10%. Bear in mind that could be way off...

7 lbs. of a 70% protein feed with 10% moisture would be 6.3 lbs. of dry matter containing 70% protein=4.41 lbs. crude protein and that is without figuring any protein in the hay. How much hay were you feeding? If you were feeding 15 lbs. of a 10% protein hay (which would be grass hay, not alfalfa-alfalfa would be higher yet), you need to add another 1.35 lbs. of crude protein from the hay. Now you are at 5.76 lbs. of crude protein. No wonder you had a breeding problem.

I would suggest that next year you get someone to run a ration for you on breeding heifers. That will eliminate the guesswork and keep your heifers so they will breed while keeping the cost down. 75% breed up isn't that good and it amazes me that you would feel you had to feed those heifers a ration like you mentioned, when they are breeding heifers, not market beef.

Someone help me out here. Couldn't they have fed more energy much cheaper than all that protein? She mentioned the feed was fairly cheap at $167/ton. Now I am interested in the answer... :help:
 

the_jersey_lilly_2000

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We started out on a 'beef grower' premixed/bagged feed from the feedstore. After about 2 months of feeding that..which was 10% protein they weren't gaining much at all and we were feeding nearly 20lbs of feed per day. It was killin my check book. The cows refused hay on that ration. I then talked to a friend that does feedlot feeding and he said to go with this mixture. Cut my feeding down from 1.69 a head per day to about .65 cents a day per head. Our hay last year was not good hay at all. We put out a round bale for them free choice and after changing the feed ration they began eating hay. averaged out one round bale a month. and the bale weighed about 1500 lbs. but didnt have very much protien in it(8%maybe)..The feed moisture content was very low. Dry dusty feed . I think we did pretty good when we started in December 1, at tag in they averaged 525 lbs each. Show day was June 10 and they averaged 1100 lbs so they doubled their size. think it was 97 days on feed. Was a learning experience to say the least.
 

Denny

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the_jersey_lilly_2000 said:
We started out on a 'beef grower' premixed/bagged feed from the feedstore. After about 2 months of feeding that..which was 10% protein they weren't gaining much at all and we were feeding nearly 20lbs of feed per day. It was killin my check book. The cows refused hay on that ration. I then talked to a friend that does feedlot feeding and he said to go with this mixture. Cut my feeding down from 1.69 a head per day to about .65 cents a day per head. Our hay last year was not good hay at all. We put out a round bale for them free choice and after changing the feed ration they began eating hay. averaged out one round bale a month. and the bale weighed about 1500 lbs. but didnt have very much protien in it(8%maybe)..The feed moisture content was very low. Dry dusty feed . I think we did pretty good when we started in December 1, at tag in they averaged 525 lbs each. Show day was June 10 and they averaged 1100 lbs so they doubled their size. think it was 97 days on feed. Was a learning experience to say the least.

Bet they dont milk worth a hoot when they become cows if my heifers go with the bull weighing800 to 900#s thats plenty big.Pretty tough to have a mature cow weigh !200#s when they weigh 1100#s as yearlings.The show scene has wrecked more good cattle than it has ever produced.
 

the_jersey_lilly_2000

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I'd hafta agree on show cattle wreckin a good cow, there were a few that were what I'd call a lil too fat, but not bad. We will be doing alot of things different this next year. Our rules stated in the beginning that the heifers couldnt be over 2 years old at show date. And I told them that was pushing it. They have since changed the rules for this year that the heifers can't be older than 2 years old at tag-in in late november. We will be starting out with bigger heifers this next time, so that we dont have to put that much weight on them that fast. I went to the last fair board meeting and basically what I found is you have a handful of people sittin up there making rules that have no idea what a good heifer looks like, and what it takes to get one to breeding age and quality. I also think since it is a "commercial" division that there should be something presented as proof of where you bought the cattle. Or as in our case that we pulled them from our own herd. In the rules it states that they prefer them to come from area ranches in our county or adjoining counties.
The object of the whole deal is to keep good records on all your expenses and show a profit at the end, and raise a nice pen of heifers. I know good n well that the one's that went out and bought "show heifers" registered stock, spent a ton of money on start up,(probably more than they sold for at auction) plus they were all buying feed 50# at a time from the feed store..show feed. (expensive) like $8.75 a bag, feeding 20lbs a head perday..(because most feeds are filler,roughage) .that adds up quick. No way can you do it economically feeding like that. My daughter told one of the judges during her interview. "My goal is to raise good heifers that will have good calves that anyone would be proud to put out in their pasture."
I could go on and on about this. We learned a whole lot about the "show scene" , about raisin heifers on feed, which we normally dont do. Too many things to mention that we learned. We are really lookin forward to next years pen of 3 so we can do some changing and see what happens.
 

Faster horses

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Good for you for making it a learning experience and not staying STUCK in what you did.

I was scratching my head over the whole deal, too, so thanks for clearing up what happened. The whole idea in breeding heifers is GETTING THEM BRED. Sounds like that got lost along the way in getting the heifers to size. In these kind of deals we often get sidetracked from the main objective. You are not alone, believe me~been there, done that, got the T-shirt!!!

I think Denny is correct in that these heifers may never milk to their full postential. However, we see that problem mostly in spring-born heifer calves who are creep fed in the fall (August to October.) They do get too fat and as a consequence their bag fills up with fat. There has been many studies done on this and they all come to the same conclusion. When this happens they never milk to their full potential.

Anyway, Good Luck next time around.

PS. I hate rules. I have been involved in getting a 4H Livestock Sale up and running, getting a Horse Show up and running (both are still going today) and the more rules you have, the more unhappy people you have and the more cheating goes on. I say, let those people pay all that money for cattle and feed. They may or may not do as good as the others. But if that is how they want to approach it, so be it. Kids (people) need to learn that life isn't fair...darn it!! In all of life these things are gonna happen. The more rules you have, the more problems there will be, you can count on it. There is no way to totalling level the playing field...someone will always have an advantage...
 

the_jersey_lilly_2000

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Oh something else. The 4th heifer in the pen that didnt show. We kept, even tho the vet said she wasn't bred. She's been turned out to pasture with the other cows now since June 10. and hasn't showed signs of coming in heat. I still say she was early bred, guess time will tell. I think it'll be interesting to see what she does. Next go round in september when we work cows I will palpate her myself and see if she's bred, course by then it should be easy to tell just by lookin if she's bred or not, but will have her in the chute none the less. cuz...I WANNA KNOW!!! hehe
 

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