Backgrounders
- Thread starter 4Diamond
- Start date
Hereford76
Well-known member
4Diamond said:
here we've always weaned everything before it is marketed. for a long time we just gave clostridials at branding and when we split them at weaning. it wasn't until i actually toured some big feedlots that changed my opinion on it. we still just give clostridails at branding but try to precondition before wean but more often than not just vaccinate for clostriadials, virals at wean and then booster 3 or 4 weeks later and hand doctor anything that needs it on a case by case basis usually with LA200 and sulfa. but i think the best thing a guy can do is to get the calves done bawling then back out on grass and water. seems like no matter what you do mother nature always throws a curve ball. dry and dusty or cold and wet and hot in the day and real cold at night. this year its cold/wet/humid. anyhow i feel it gives them a runnin chance going into a big feedlot and i have always felt like i got paid for the effort or maybe just not dinged.
We start the year before with the cows on an Express 10 program (guaranteed BVD PI free calves). Calves are vaccinated with 8way and Pyramid (IBR/BVD/BRSV) at branding and knife castrated (polled cattle so no dehoning). It is a bit of extra work but we bring them all home about 2 weeks pre-weaning and booster these 2 shots.
When we wean we put them onto a high quality hay (grass alfalfa) and usually have some bales around for supplement and to get them onto feed.
We usually retain calves for a while so the booster pays in limited treating of weaned calves. We will usually do a pour on post weaning.
Calves are advertised/videoed, etc. and steers have been sold private out of the yard and heifers privately into replacement programs the last few years.
When we wean we put them onto a high quality hay (grass alfalfa) and usually have some bales around for supplement and to get them onto feed.
We usually retain calves for a while so the booster pays in limited treating of weaned calves. We will usually do a pour on post weaning.
Calves are advertised/videoed, etc. and steers have been sold private out of the yard and heifers privately into replacement programs the last few years.
ANGUS327
Well-known member
Sell the steer calves as soon as possible!! They will never bring as much profit as they do now, they may bring more money later but not profit.
ANGUS327
Well-known member
4Diamond said:
Just speaking for myself here. I start to calve April 15, sold my steers on Oct 19 ave wt.was 579# @ $1.55= $897.00.
I owned the calf for 6 months the buyer will probably own him for another 6 months and I doubt he will profit more than I did.
I could keep it longer and put more feed and diesel into it and I will probably even kill some of them no matter how much medicine, straw & insecticide I pour on them.
I try to calculate the real costs of keeping that calf and he will never be worth more than $1.55# to anybody.
I had some late May/June calves that weighed 369# that sold for $2.05 or $756.00 those steers will never be worth more per/lb.
I know we sell cattle by the pound but there is a big difference between maximum production and optimal production.
I hope this makes sense, I know there are people on this forum that are better educated them I am and could give some persuasive arguements on the other side.
Heifers?? different story.
Big Swede
Well-known member
I'll disagree with you Angus327. Last year for example we were putting weight on those calves and after the fall runs in October the price started going up. We sold heavier calves on a rising market. It doesn't always work that way but year after year prices peak in the spring.
ANGUS327
Well-known member
Big Swede said:
I know we could all pick out a year when it does or doesn't work as well but when you calculate the ''real'' cost of those extra #'s you may have gotten more money for those steers but the profit was diminished.
I'm talking about facilities, machinery, corral cleaning, and my time, the whole bit when it comes to running a ranch I have tried most things even retained ownership until the steers went to the packing plant(big mistake) for my money selling the steer calf which is the highest value animal on the place at the time of weaning makes more sense to me.
I should note that we don't put up any feed and our cows survive on stockpiled grass and bale grazing for most of the winter which can be extremely brutal here. The only machinery I have is a 15 year old FWA tractor that I like to run as little as possible.
Now my wrists are sore from typing
gcreekrch
Well-known member
I have to agree that taking a profit while it is there is preferable to spending more and hoping for a larger profit.
We had a lot of heifer's calves this year, some born in June, so had quite a few peewee lightweights this fall. We sold our calves privately. The little calves were 322 lbs. Steers @ $2.00 and heifers @ $1.85. Add in $1.20 per day in feed and maybe 1 lb gain, maybe some death loss.Not sure if those calves are worth $900 in the spring. Don't need a job that breaks even.
We had a lot of heifer's calves this year, some born in June, so had quite a few peewee lightweights this fall. We sold our calves privately. The little calves were 322 lbs. Steers @ $2.00 and heifers @ $1.85. Add in $1.20 per day in feed and maybe 1 lb gain, maybe some death loss.Not sure if those calves are worth $900 in the spring. Don't need a job that breaks even.
Howdy1
Well-known member
Here is some cowboy math that I use.
Hypothetically
If I charged myself full rate on my feed for my calves and I am feeding them for around $1.63/hd/day plus yardage, interest, etc maybe $.50/hd/day, so the total would be $2.13/hd/day to get a 2.3#gain a day.
If you look at the March 2014 board it is $1.4925.
2.3#/day X $1.49 = $3.43/hd/day -$2.13 cost/hd/day = $1.30/hd/day profit. (assuming they gain 2.3 and weigh 750 in Feb)
For every 100 calves you feed you should be making around $130/day
Feed for 100 days and should profit $13,000.
This is assuming markets stay current and basis doesn't do anything crazy. I also takes into account you are set up to feed calves and are willing to assume some large risk.
On the other hand you can sell them put the money in the bank and sit back and look out the window. Which all of a sudden sounds kinda good :lol:
Hypothetically
If I charged myself full rate on my feed for my calves and I am feeding them for around $1.63/hd/day plus yardage, interest, etc maybe $.50/hd/day, so the total would be $2.13/hd/day to get a 2.3#gain a day.
If you look at the March 2014 board it is $1.4925.
2.3#/day X $1.49 = $3.43/hd/day -$2.13 cost/hd/day = $1.30/hd/day profit. (assuming they gain 2.3 and weigh 750 in Feb)
For every 100 calves you feed you should be making around $130/day
Feed for 100 days and should profit $13,000.
This is assuming markets stay current and basis doesn't do anything crazy. I also takes into account you are set up to feed calves and are willing to assume some large risk.
On the other hand you can sell them put the money in the bank and sit back and look out the window. Which all of a sudden sounds kinda good :lol:
Big Muddy rancher
Well-known member
4Diamond said:
One size does not fit all
Looking at the price of calves I wonder why I am background ours, we already sold a calf crop this year so that's one reason. Another is my son trucks so the place he bought works good for summering steers and he is not around much to calve out cows.
Gcreek and I were talking last night and the supplement would cost him $350/MT and me $200. I'm pretty sure geographics play part in the markets and they can transport more hd of light weight cattle from that distance.
Besides if we all did things right we would make too much money and everybody would want to ranch.
per
Well-known member
I tried to phone gcreek last night to discuss this very topic. The 2 calf crops in one year is an issue for me as well. I also don't want to do something to loose or break even but that certainly hasn't been the case in the past here. Backgrounding calves is fun and figuring out how to put pounds on calves cheap is challenging.Big Muddy rancher said:4Diamond said:
One size does not fit all
Looking at the price of calves I wonder why I am background ours, we already sold a calf crop this year so that's one reason. Another is my son trucks so the place he bought works good for summering steers and he is not around much to calve out cows.
Gcreek and I were talking last night and the supplement would cost him $350/MT and me $200. I'm pretty sure geographics play part in the markets and they can transport more hd of light weight cattle from that distance.
Besides if we all did things right we would make too much money and everybody would want to ranch.
I agree I love back grounding, especially buying calves at the barn and bringing them home and getting them started. It's a challenge that has rewards. A lot of people here calve fall and spring which I realize you northern boys don't do but it is nice to split money up.
gcreekrch
Well-known member
per said:I tried to phone gcreek last night to discuss this very topic. The 2 calf crops in one year is an issue for me as well. I also don't want to do something to loose or break even but that certainly hasn't been the case in the past here. Backgrounding calves is fun and figuring out how to put pounds on calves cheap is challenging.Big Muddy rancher said:4Diamond said:
One size does not fit all
Looking at the price of calves I wonder why I am background ours, we already sold a calf crop this year so that's one reason. Another is my son trucks so the place he bought works good for summering steers and he is not around much to calve out cows.
Gcreek and I were talking last night and the supplement would cost him $350/MT and me $200. I'm pretty sure geographics play part in the markets and they can transport more hd of light weight cattle from that distance.
Besides if we all did things right we would make too much money and everybody would want to ranch.
Sheesh, you guys make it sound like I might know something. :lol:
A successful rancher/speculator guy told me once never to be afraid of selling at a profit and paying income tax. I've always had enough loss carryover to not worry about the tax part. Kind of the nice part of continual building mode.
We all do what works best for us. At least that's the intent. :wink:
Soapweed
Well-known member
gcreekrch said:per said:I tried to phone gcreek last night to discuss this very topic. The 2 calf crops in one year is an issue for me as well. I also don't want to do something to loose or break even but that certainly hasn't been the case in the past here. Backgrounding calves is fun and figuring out how to put pounds on calves cheap is challenging.Big Muddy rancher said:One size does not fit all
Looking at the price of calves I wonder why I am background ours, we already sold a calf crop this year so that's one reason. Another is my son trucks so the place he bought works good for summering steers and he is not around much to calve out cows.
Gcreek and I were talking last night and the supplement would cost him $350/MT and me $200. I'm pretty sure geographics play part in the markets and they can transport more hd of light weight cattle from that distance.
Besides if we all did things right we would make too much money and everybody would want to ranch.
Sheesh, you guys make it sound like I might know something. :lol:
A successful rancher/speculator guy told me once never to be afraid of selling at a profit and paying income tax. I've always had enough loss carryover to not worry about the tax part. Kind of the nice part of continual building mode.
We all do what works best for us. At least that's the intent. :wink:
My goal has always been to make our financial condition look good to the bank, and bad for the IRS. One way to make this happen is to stay in the "continual building mode" that Gcreek mentions. A method that seems to work is to always keep over way too many heifer calves. You don't show income on them which "makes it look bad" for the IRS resulting in less taxes, and the growing cattle inventory "makes it look good" for the bank resulting in more equity and borrowing ability. By doing this, your cow inventory (the factory) stays current, and you always have either old cows or bred heifers to sell. The feed costs in keeping heifer calves over makes for great tax deductions. :wink:
per
Well-known member
The continual growth model certainly allows you defer paying taxes as does keeping your inventory past you year end. It is interesting that if one were to sell double the calf crop and avoid taxes by spending money on more inventory is a good strategy but managing the tax grab by holding inventory for a short time is not. It truly isn't much different in fact. There are as many reasons why an operation doesn't need or want to grow as there are for one to be in perpetual growth. The important part is that you are satisfied with your business model. From a historical point of view holding our calves has usually proven to be a good strategy for profit as well.Soapweed said:
Faster horses
Well-known member
I'm not sure this fits right here, but I think it does. 
In Miles City at a bank there, they have an escrow account whereas if
you sell too much in one year, you can set up this account,
put their name on the bill of sale, deposit the money in that account
of which you have no access to. After Jan. 1, they fill out a form for you
to get the money. It's called Western Exchange and it is perfectly legal.
That way if you do sell too much in one year, you can defer the money to
the next year. We've used it many times and they don't charge anything for the service whether you are a customer or not. When interest was decent,
they would even pay you interest on the money in that account. They still
do that, but of course it doesn't amount to anything. (Thank you, Obama.)
In Miles City at a bank there, they have an escrow account whereas if
you sell too much in one year, you can set up this account,
put their name on the bill of sale, deposit the money in that account
of which you have no access to. After Jan. 1, they fill out a form for you
to get the money. It's called Western Exchange and it is perfectly legal.
That way if you do sell too much in one year, you can defer the money to
the next year. We've used it many times and they don't charge anything for the service whether you are a customer or not. When interest was decent,
they would even pay you interest on the money in that account. They still
do that, but of course it doesn't amount to anything. (Thank you, Obama.)