Balancers- To Cross or Not to Cross?

[C Bar C Ranch]

Greetings!
I run a straight bred herd of Brangus cattle, and I really do love the breed. They are large, good milking, quick growing, and a pleasure to work with. We've been running Brangus bulls for quite a while in an effort to increase uniformity in the "mongrel" herd we started with. Now that the herd is uniform enough, it is time to select a breed for an outcross, and we've been thinking Gelbvieh. I've done quite a bit of research into the breed, and I am impressed by their maternal abilities as well as the growth qualities they exhibit. These are two important factors, since we raise our own replacements.
The resulting calves will be not only be Balancers, but also an effective three way cross. While I am sure that the females will be productive, I am curious as to the market qualities the steers will posses. One is hard pressed to find information on Balancer performance beyond breed association propaganda. Any experiences you can relay to me are most appreciated.

 

[High Plains]

Simple, you just need to call Dan Warner. Here's his site: http://www.warnerbeef.com/ He's a real cowman with a very good set of Balancer cows. Young fellow that tries real hard and is not a fly-by-night operator. Absolutely won't be a waste of your time to speak to him. Don't worry about the show ring photos that you can see on his site. That's a byproduct of the real world cattle operation that he's running. Just a real super fella so give him a call!

 

[Howdy1]

Doesn't Wyoming Rancher here on ranchers.net use balancers. She has not been on a whole lot lately but she always had big, heavy and very nice calves. She would be a good source of information if I am not mistaken.

Hopefully she will chime in for us.

 

[perfecho]

You won't go wrong......but then, I am a Gelbvieh Breeder, so I may be somewhat biased
Larry
www.evgelbvieh.com

 

[WyomingRancher]

Doesn't Wyoming Rancher here on ranchers.net use balancers. She has not been on a whole lot lately but she always had big, heavy and very nice calves. She would be a good source of information if I am not mistaken.

Hopefully she will chime in for us.

Thanks for the nice compliment . Yes, we use Balancers and really like the cattle. They usually grow into a more thicker, heavier, nicer made calf than a straight Angus. Also, we get extra hybrid vigor and fertility. They go on to make great females, or feeder cattle. We have had the same buyer for eleven years now, and he sure likes how they feed out. I don't think you would be disappointed in the cross. However, like any breed, I would tour any prospective bull source herds, and make sure the females pass inspection. Once upon a time we did get into bad udders in the breed, but that was a long time ago :wink:.

 

[WyomingRancher]

I had forgotten how punishing Photobucket could be, but here are a few pics of this year's steers before they shipped. We still have our heifer calves to sell, and need to decide what to do with them soon.

 

[Faster horses]

Nice calves, Wyoming Rancher! Looks like that cross worked very well for you.

We knew of some ranchers who crossed Gelbvieh/Angus cows with
Brangus bulls and got into a real wreck. Wreck meaning huge calves at birth!
They wound up building a whole new calving barn because of the problems they encountered. Would the huge gene pool from these breeds have any thing to do with BW problems?

That was many years back, though, and hopefully would no longer be the case. Just thought I would mention it, as it was a real life scenario.

 

[WyomingRancher]

Good point FH. I am very careful about selecting for calving ease, especially since I have to do all of the calving solo. On the balancer side, I have chosen for short gestation length, and it has worked for me. Sometimes odd balls show up, but for the most part, these calves come out around 75 pounds, and vigorous, on both cows and heifers. I can't have calves laying around, they must jump up and get nursed before the wind chills them down up here at 7800 feet in late February/March . They don't all go through the barn.

 

[Anonymous]

However, like any breed, I would tour any prospective bull source herds, and make sure the females pass inspection..

Nice, nice calves- and over the years of crossbreeding I loved the potentials of crossbred calves...
My only question anymore with crossbreds is with all the genetic defects that are being found...
Probably not a big thing- as some have existed for years in all breeds -and most had few problems-- but now that they are identified do you take the gamble that the cows you have and the sires you use are DDC or DDA :???: Or one of the other genetic defects that we know are spread thru the herds because of all the breeds using top A.I. Angus bulls as a way to color them black..

 

[WyomingRancher]

However, like any breed, I would tour any prospective bull source herds, and make sure the females pass inspection..

Nice, nice calves- and over the years of crossbreeding I loved the potentials of crossbred calves...
My only question anymore with crossbreds is with all the genetic defects that are being found...
Probably not a big thing- as some have existed for years in all breeds -and most had few problems-- but now that they are identified do you take the gamble that the cows you have and the sires you use are DDC or DDA :???: Or one of the other genetic defects that we know are spread thru the herds because of all the breeds using top A.I. Angus bulls as a way to color them black..

Oh sure, something more to worry about! Anything is possible, but the majority of our Angus genetics we have used has come from a breeder who has used their own genetics for several generations, with very limited outside breeding. They don't have the wow factor numbers, but crank out very consistent and useful bulls and females in my opinion.

 

[gcreekrch]

What did those calves average in weight?

 

[Anonymous]

However, like any breed, I would tour any prospective bull source herds, and make sure the females pass inspection..

Nice, nice calves- and over the years of crossbreeding I loved the potentials of crossbred calves...
My only question anymore with crossbreds is with all the genetic defects that are being found...
Probably not a big thing- as some have existed for years in all breeds -and most had few problems-- but now that they are identified do you take the gamble that the cows you have and the sires you use are DDC or DDA :???: Or one of the other genetic defects that we know are spread thru the herds because of all the breeds using top A.I. Angus bulls as a way to color them black..

Oh sure, something more to worry about! Anything is possible, but the majority of our Angus genetics we have used has come from a breeder who has used their own genetics for several generations, with very limited outside breeding. They don't have the wow factor numbers, but crank out very consistent and useful bulls and females in my opinion.

Yep- and I agree 100%- you probably have little to worry about- BUT like the one possible carrier cow family I have that I haven't tested yet (hoping someone later in the pedigree will do it and clear them :wink - they test back to a 1977 bull...Which means thru A.I and all it could easily be spread thru many of the crossbreds too...

 

[WyomingRancher]

What did those calves average in weight?

The load of steers weighed 587 on October 2nd. They certainly won't win a weaning weight contest, but I feel come from moderate mothers who seem to be efficient eaters...kinda important for a place that has to feed 150+ days a year. Our open cows, in great shape, averaged right at 1225 pounds. It would be nice to increase their weaning weight slightly, but I feel like that is a slippery slope which would involve more milk production, feed, and could possibly decrease calving ease, and increase our mature cow size. These cows seem to fit this place and management, but always need improvement . I don't know how much more production I could put into them before it became expensive :wink:. Every place is different for sure.

 

[Faster horses]

What did those calves average in weight?

The load of steers weighed 587 on October 2nd. They certainly won't win a weaning weight contest, but I feel come from moderate mothers who seem to be efficient eaters...kinda important for a place that has to feed 150+ days a year. Our open cows, in great shape, averaged right at 1225 pounds. It would be nice to increase their weaning weight slightly, but I feel like that is a slippery slope which would involve more milk production, feed, and could possibly decrease calving ease, and increase our mature cow size. These cows seem to fit this place and management, but always need improvement . I don't know how much more production I could put into them before it became expensive :wink:. Every place is different for sure.

I think you can reach a point where you have gotten everything out of a cow she is capable of producing, and then, like you say, you have to do something that might not be a good option for your operation. I think you are doing things efficiently and considering every aspect. There is something HUGE
to be said for vigorous calves at birth. I want to say too, that that vigor has a lot to do with quality of colostrum.

The young family that leases our place has some put-together cows, mostly Angus with some black baldy cows thrown in. He doesn't start to calve the cows here til April 15 and is done by June 1st. It has to be that way because of his responsibilities on a large local ranch he manages. The cows here calve outside on their own, checked on at feeding time and in the evening every day.

He time breeds these cows to Ollie, a black Simmental bull and then bull breeds those that don't catch AI. The calves went out yesterday. They sold every steer calf and they weighed 600# right on the nose. He didn't lose a calf all summer. I think he has gotten the max out of those cows and he shouldn't expect any better than that. He agreed. The great grass year we had, certainly helped the calf weaning weights, but those cows still showed what they were capable of. I thought it was amazing. Every steer calf weighed. No creep. Just hay, grass, mineral and water. To change that could get expensive, as Wyoming Rancher mentioned. How much can you expect a cow to do in an area such as ours?

I did a little calculation figuring daily gain on the calves. I knew that one draft of calves weighed 660 lbs. Those calves gained 3.4#/day generally speaking. (Not a totally accurate figure. Those may have been calves that were born between April 15 and May 1). At 600# they gained 3# day average. I gave them a common birthdate of May 1. Doing so, made the calves 169 days old on Oct. 19.

Anyway, we were really tickled for them and for everyone that has had good prices and extra weaning weight this year. May next year be as good!

 

[gcreekrch]

What did those calves average in weight?

The load of steers weighed 587 on October 2nd. They certainly won't win a weaning weight contest, but I feel come from moderate mothers who seem to be efficient eaters...kinda important for a place that has to feed 150+ days a year. Our open cows, in great shape, averaged right at 1225 pounds. It would be nice to increase their weaning weight slightly, but I feel like that is a slippery slope which would involve more milk production, feed, and could possibly decrease calving ease, and increase our mature cow size. These cows seem to fit this place and management, but always need improvement . I don't know how much more production I could put into them before it became expensive :wink:. Every place is different for sure.

I wasn't expecting you to start making excuses.

Those calves did you well and they are built to do well for their next owner also.
Our calves will weigh out of here on the 30th at an average age of about 180 days. We will see what they do when they cross the scale. The light load of steers will include several June calves. The heifers we don't hold back will be weighed in one bunch.

 

[perfecho]

Re: Birth weights....my theory is the cow is responsible for about %70 of the BW, although a bad bull can wreck that theory quickly.
We have a couple of Lowlines around here....(whole new story), however our purebred matriarch must have got bred Gelbvieh last year.
Come calving time, she did her usual 3 day disappearance, showed up with her calf as usual. Haven't checked her in a while, but she must be getting close to here mothers height, and she was born in May.

 

[WyomingRancher]

What did those calves average in weight?

The load of steers weighed 587 on October 2nd. They certainly won't win a weaning weight contest, but I feel come from moderate mothers who seem to be efficient eaters...kinda important for a place that has to feed 150+ days a year. Our open cows, in great shape, averaged right at 1225 pounds. It would be nice to increase their weaning weight slightly, but I feel like that is a slippery slope which would involve more milk production, feed, and could possibly decrease calving ease, and increase our mature cow size. These cows seem to fit this place and management, but always need improvement . I don't know how much more production I could put into them before it became expensive :wink:. Every place is different for sure.

I wasn't expecting you to start making excuses.

Those calves did you well and they are built to do well for their next owner also.
Our calves will weigh out of here on the 30th at an average age of about 180 days. We will see what they do when they cross the scale. The light load of steers will include several June calves. The heifers we don't hold back will be weighed in one bunch.

Soooo people, what do you think would happen if I bought a few higher percentage Gelbviehs and put them in after 10 days of exposing the cows to more maternal type Balancers and Angus bulls (to get heifers from)? Would I lose too much uniformity in the steers? Any other suggestions what to do??? I am stuck, or maybe just chicken to change things up! Or maybe I should just leave this alone??? I do know I want to get away from Angus for now, too much Brisket disease is creeping back in.

And FH, there are some people interested in buying a few of these heifers, and plan to breed them Sim/Angus after their first calf. I think these females are versatile enough to go any direction, so it will be fun to see how their plan works out.

 

[Faster horses]

If it were me, I'd keep doing what you are doing. "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" :wink:

We all get caught up in weaning weights, especially at this time of year, but weaning weight is only part of the
deal of running a cow/calf outfit. IMO
I know you recognize that or you wouldn't be hesitatng to change what you are doing.

If I remember correctly when you calve, those calves were pretty young on Oct. 2. Of course, had you weighed them 15 days later, they would have weighed considerably more. That's why you have to use 205 days to determine % of calf weight to cow weight. Usually (anything can happen, however) usually calves that are older, weigh more. So figure your
% on 205 days to be fair to your cows. I was always interested in what
our calves gained per day of age. That tells the real story. IMO

I think you are doing a fantastic job. :nod:

 

[gcreekrch]

I thought Balancers were percentage Gelbvieh.

In my opinionated opinion you can have too much Continental in range cattle.

 

[perfecho]

Balancers are Angus/Gelbvieh crosses. As per continental, the average Gelbvieh cow weighs less than an average Angus cow....according to recent stats......